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what if the horus heresy never happened how do you think the imperium would have turned out?

Very boring.

The Emp would probably have opened up the webway for humans, leading to a massive war with the Eldar and dark Eldar.

Assuming the in-fighting between the legions never developed, they would have gone on bringing worlds into the Imperium, meaning the Tau would have been wiped out before they had even developed (yay!).

The forces of Chaos may have subverted some marines, maybe even quite a few, which would have lead to many wars which would have shaken the Imperium and probably triggered a civil war anyway.

Whatever way you look at it, the Heresy would have happened eventually, though if Horus was not injured and "brainwashed/tricked/etc" into falling to Chaos, it would have been more piecemeal and probably not have destroyed so much.

After all, the Emp pretty much denied all study into chaos, so no one really understood what it was, or how it ate away at people.

There'd be infighting and humanity would wipe out itself. Humans need and enemy, an "other", a cause to fight for or against. If the Space Marines all stood united against the Orks and the Tyranids they would've eventually wiped them out too. Then who would be left? Hell, the Heresy's probably the best thing that's happened to humanity.

Up to the events of the Heresy it's clear that cracks were forming and many of the Primarchs harbored grudges and resentments so something would've eventually happened.

Lorgar and Magnus were already under the sway of Chaos, although Magnus didn't know it. Fulgrim was possessed by a Daemon, but didn't suspect anything (which is terrible if you ask me). Nighthaunter had destroyed Nostramo and was on the run.

It might not have been the same galactic scale but it would've ended up brother vs brother and if the theory on the Space Wolves is true, they would be very busy wolfies.

Pilau Rice wrote:It might not have been the same galactic scale but it would've ended up brother vs brother and if the theory on the Space Wolves is true, they would be very busy wolfies.

I agree with that. Some kind of civil war would have happened anyway. Simply because some of the primarchs were already behaving like bad boys. But without Horus' leadership, they would have remained disunited and scattered and remained an easy prey for the loyalists.

Here is my opinion on the traitor primarchs without the HH:

1°/ Fulgrim: He probably would have ended up being possessed by his sword anyway, given up to slaanesh and fled to the Eye.

2°/ Night Haunter: Obviously a psychopath. He would have ended up the same way, being killed by an imperial assassin sent by his father, and the Alpha Legion would pretty much be the same as it is today.

3°/ Magnus: He was doomed from the start. His intentions were pure, but he was already under Tzeentch's sway. Without the HH, he would have been brought back to Terra by Russ. His legion would have been humiliated, maybe even purged like the two missing legions.

4°/ Lorgar: He would have continued worshiping Big E. He would have ended up being purged by the Ultras, since they were the only Legion large enough to tackle him, and that the emperor already used them to reprimand Lorgar.

5°/ Alpharius: He truly believed that the Imperium was going the wrong way. He would have ended up as a traitor one way or another.

The other primarchs, IMHO, would have stayed loyalists, mainly thanks to Horus' control.

Yep, a "Heresy" of some sort would have happened in one way or another.

Things to consider...

We have really only seen the heresy through the prism of the "Horus Heresy" books which by-and-large are reflections of what went on from the "traitors" view points. We all have sympathy for tragic figures. Most often these are the Primarchs. It seems there is an excuse for all of their downfalls in some way or another. There has yet to be written a book from the view point of the Emperor. I doubt there ever will be for obvious reasons.

We don't really know what the Emperor had in mind. Again, who he was and more importantly, what his intents were are viewed from very skewed viewpoints.

What would have happened had Horus not mutineed is a moot point I think. It is apparent that even the Primarchs, even the one closest to the Emperor had no idea what he was on about in the end.

We may like to think that the view of the future offered to Alpharius and his "Twin" was the "truth". Making yet another tragic set of figures.

Even Guilliam (who so many fans love to hate) was following the Emperor through "blind faith". A feeling that the Emperor truly did have mankinds future at the heart of his plans. We don't know if this was the correct policy or not, but it goes against our inherent need for tragic anti-authority figures. Perhaps Guilliam will, in the end, be the most tragic figure of them all... and for reasons that many might not think of immediately.

One thing is certain. As powerful as the primarchs were, they could only guess at the Emperors purposes beyond what he told them, or what they, through their arrogance, deemed them to be. This last thing is what drove some to seek answers elsewhere. In those places they would only find Chaos.

The arrogance of these powerful beings is what brought the galaxy low, but this would have happened whether Horus turned or not I think.

Phloop wrote:There'd be infighting and humanity would wipe out itself. Humans need and enemy, an "other", a cause to fight for or against. If the Space Marines all stood united against the Orks and the Tyranids they would've eventually wiped them out too. Then who would be left? Hell, the Heresy's probably the best thing that's happened to humanity.

Maybe the Orks. Although they certainly had a pretty good survival system. They were almost impossible to wipe out.

I don't think the IoM would have stood much of a chance against the Tyrannid Hive Mind. It's just too intractable of an enemy.

The IoM probably would have turned their attention from the other Xenos races and faced off against the Tyrannid, making another Humans vs. Bugs sci-fi scenario.

Depends on How it didn't happen. Simplest way is for Horus not to take Chaos up on its offer. Lorgar and Angron would have had to been put down anyway, maybe Curze too. But all in all I think the Imperium ends up more like Ultramar than what it currently is.

Perhaps Humanity would have taken the route of other star-spanning civilizations and reached a peak; then another calamity would have befallen "us". It seems to be the way of the grimdark future.

I agree that having 20 demi-gods roaming the universe would have eventually resulted in some form of internal conflict; the Emperor was just about to deal with the Night Lords when the Heresy broke out. I don't think civil war was an inevitable outcome though; it's fairly clear that Big E was just getting started by conquering the physical galaxy. It's pure speculation, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that he was gearing up to eventually take on Chaos. The primarchs and their marines would have been plenty busy for a long time if they'd stuck to the plan. And who's to say that realspace and warpspace in our home galaxy was the extent of the Emperor's designs? There's more than a few other galaxies out there to conquer; and after having mastered the Webway and Immaterium, I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond the Emperor to get us over there and keep the crusade going. Things could have been very different I think.

Ghyslain Xaroit wrote:I agree that having 20 demi-gods roaming the universe would have eventually resulted in some form of internal conflict; the Emperor was just about to deal with the Night Lords when the Heresy broke out. I don't think civil war was an inevitable outcome though; it's fairly clear that Big E was just getting started by conquering the physical galaxy. It's pure speculation, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that he was gearing up to eventually take on Chaos. The primarchs and their marines would have been plenty busy for a long time if they'd stuck to the plan. And who's to say that realspace and warpspace in our home galaxy was the extent of the Emperor's designs? There's more than a few other galaxies out there to conquer; and after having mastered the Webway and Immaterium, I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond the Emperor to get us over there and keep the crusade going. Things could have been very different I think.

Very different, but in the end the same. When I say "same" I don't mean that Horus would rebel, I simply mean that a calamity of similar magnitude would have befallen Humanity. It seems that both in history (IRL) and grimdark futures of imaginative origins, catastrophe is around the corner at all times one way or the other.

I think it would be a mix of good and bad. Yes, the imperium would be mostly defended against chaos and in good condition, but chaos would continue to try and bring old night back. The imperium would have to deal with the Eldar, as the harlequins would be especially protective of the webway.

-Cypher- wrote:

Ghyslain Xaroit wrote:I agree that having 20 demi-gods roaming the universe would have eventually resulted in some form of internal conflict; the Emperor was just about to deal with the Night Lords when the Heresy broke out. I don't think civil war was an inevitable outcome though; it's fairly clear that Big E was just getting started by conquering the physical galaxy. It's pure speculation, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that he was gearing up to eventually take on Chaos. The primarchs and their marines would have been plenty busy for a long time if they'd stuck to the plan. And who's to say that realspace and warpspace in our home galaxy was the extent of the Emperor's designs? There's more than a few other galaxies out there to conquer; and after having mastered the Webway and Immaterium, I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond the Emperor to get us over there and keep the crusade going. Things could have been very different I think.

Very different, but in the end the same. When I say "same" I don't mean that Horus would rebel, I simply mean that a calamity of similar magnitude would have befallen Humanity. It seems that both in history (IRL) and grimdark futures of imaginative origins, catastrophe is around the corner at all times one way or the other.

Maybe so. Certainly you can't make a perfect bubble immune to random happenstance, which yeah will eventually be something calamitous. I think that at some point though the Imperium could be "too big to fail". Really, it's at that point already; humanity wins through attrition most of the time (Emperor bless the IG ). If the Emperor's plans had proceeded for much longer, even Heresy scale rebellions or Tyranid level invasions could only affect so much of the Imperium; after all his goal was the continued survival of the race. What better way than to be too numerous and too powerful to destroy anything but a small portion?

If the Horus Heresy never happened than things would be quite boring. Instead of IG SM legion would take entire sectors to defend, there would be 19 more mini-empires like Ultramar where every Primarch would be in charge. But I do not think that the Heresy would happened, Chaos would still have daemons to plague Humanity, Orks are still on the large scale, Tyranids would come and eventually Necrons will begin to rise.
As for conquest - it will never end. After finishing this galaxy Emperor would look for a way to go to Andromeda and start his crusade there.

Phloop wrote:There'd be infighting and humanity would wipe out itself. Humans need and enemy, an "other", a cause to fight for or against. If the Space Marines all stood united against the Orks and the Tyranids they would've eventually wiped them out too. Then who would be left? Hell, the Heresy's probably the best thing that's happened to humanity.

If it were possible to exterminate the orks it would have already been done by the ancient eldar empire. They were far more powerful than the imperium and either destroyed or contained all their enemies which is what made it possible for them to create society where such termendous excess was possible. As it was the eldar were only able to contain the orks keep their numbers down to non threatening levels. the imperium would have found it difficult to have even managed that I think, primarchs or not.

Laodamia wrote:
1°/ Fulgrim: He probably would have ended up being possessed by his sword anyway, given up to slaanesh and fled to the Eye.

Yes to this - Fulgrim would've eventually have fallen - an internal struggle with the Emperors Children loyal to him and The Emperor. The remainder go to the Eye.

Laodamia wrote:2°/ Night Haunter: Obviously a psychopath. He would have ended up the same way, being killed by an imperial assassin sent by his father, and the Alpha Legion would pretty much be the same as it is today.

Already on the run after destroying Nostramo.

Laodamia wrote:3°/ Magnus: He was doomed from the start. His intentions were pure, but he was already under Tzeentch's sway. Without the HH, he would have been brought back to Terra by Russ. His legion would have been humiliated, maybe even purged like the two missing legions.

Not sure on this one - He would never had to contact the Emperor so he wouldn't have cast his spell, so the Wolves wouldn't have been sent but you are right Tzeentch would've cashed his cheque in eventually.

Laodamia wrote:4°/ Lorgar: He would have continued worshiping Big E. He would have ended up being purged by the Ultras, since they were the only Legion large enough to tackle him, and that the emperor already used them to reprimand Lorgar.

I think Lorgar would've been the one to start an open war.

Laodamia wrote:5°/ Alpharius: He truly believed that the Imperium was going the wrong way. He would have ended up as a traitor one way or another.

I'm not so sure on this either - there would be no Heresy so possibly no contact from the Cabal, despite Alpharius and Omegons opinions on the Imperium they were ultimately loyal to the Emperor.

Laodamia wrote:The other primarchs, IMHO, would have stayed loyalists, mainly thanks to Horus' control.

Angron is a toughy as is Mortarion, I think possibly Mortarion would break off from the Imperium as he sees the Emperor as another dictator. Perturabo is also a tricky one - I think he only joined Horus side because of what happened on Olympia.

Actually on Mortarion and the Death Guard - In Galaxy in flames we know and learn that Typhon has been an agent of Chaos for some time and others are mentioned, one we know of is Erebus, it would all depends who else is one of the 'others' and what Legions they are in. Hope we find out sometime.

I say the civil war would have happened anyway,just at a later date.

1. Fulgrim was doomed since Laeran
2.People like Erebus and Thyphus were already spreading chaos in their Legions.
3.Angron would turn anyway. If I remember in "Ravens Flight" it says what more could Angron want then just the freedom to kill.

Even without a civil war, and I think this has been said before but anyway, the Imperium will still have its hands full with Orks, Nids and Necrons. Obviosuly not all the necrons are awake yet, but the Orks?

There are billions of them.

The Tyranids? Only a small portion has entered the galaxy. The rest is waiting outside, and the Hive Mind is a big a enemy to tackle.

Necrons? Once they fully awake, they will be like the Nids, except immortal. Blowing up all the Necron contaminated planets would probably result in destroying half the Imperium.