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can this list work? really like the big missle shooting from the razorwings. Use the baron to get extra +1 for going first and then try to get all the enemies infantry pinnend. Its about shooting and flying.. Baron and heam go with the scourges.


Baron

Heam

Razorwing jetfighter
2 necrotoxic missles
nightshield

Razorwing jetfighter
2 necrotoxic missles
nightshield

Razorwing jetfighter
2 necrotoxic missles
nightshield

10 scourges
4 dark lance

5 warrior
blaster
venom with extra Splinter cannon

5 warrior
blaster
venom with extra Splinter cannon

5 warrior
blaster
venom with extra Splinter cannon

5 warrior
blaster
venom with extra Splinter cannon

5 warrior
blaster
venom with extra Splinter cannon

5 warrior
blaster
venom with extra Splinter cannon

Are you walking the scourges or are you detaching the Haemie first thing.

Also you cannot move and shoot those DL. I might suggest blasters or haywire blasters or SCs for saturated fire, maybe a mix.

Scourges try to take cover in the middle of the battlefield. Baron gives them an extra +1 cover and Heam gives them feel no pain. No need to fly at first because the need to stay put and shoot those dark lances.

I also like those Haywire blasters...

Ok, I get your plan.

Did you consider that you just put 3 KP in one 12 man squad, where most of the squad needs to be within 18" of the enemy to do anything, and will bite the big one in assault.

At least break the Haemie away first, give the pain token. then you can move 12". and is only worth 2 KP. Give the haemie a Hexrifle if you can so he can try to do something. right now he is just a 60 pt pain token.

I hope it works out well for you.

Dark Lances seem pretty expensive on foot, and seem especially counter intuitive on a unit as mobile as the Scourges. Haywires and Heat Lances would be better for AT I think. I prefer Haywires btw. If you want Dark Lances Ravagers and Raiders are the place to put them.

Also I would respectfully disagree with the Hexrifle on the Haemonculus. Think of all the rolling you need to get past to get that ID. Have to hit, then wound, then get past the save, then the W-test. And your opponent might just allocate the wound somewhere else. Maybe it's better against MC's but they have such high W that you probably won't ID them, and besides why bother when you have splinter weaponry.

You also have no CC element, I think an Archon would be a better HQ, maybe with some Incubi.

Okay, maybe this is better:

Baron

Razorwing jetfighter
2 necrotoxic missles
nightshield

Razorwing jetfighter
2 necrotoxic missles
nightshield

Razorwing jetfighter
2 necrotoxic missles
nightshield

5 scourges
2 haywireblasters

5 scourges
2 haywireblasters

4 beastmaster
10 kamerae
3 razorw

5 warrior
blaster
venom

5 warrior
blaster
venom

5 warrior
blaster
venom

5 warrior
blaster
venom

5 warrior
blaster
venom

Baron joins the beastmaster and the scourges could deepstrike and try to cripple tanks.

If you are adamant about using Razorwings I'd drop one and take a ravager for more lance support. At the moment, it feels like you don't have enough lance support. I like the second list better as the beasts give you close combat support. I'd also jockey some points around and at least field a unit of trueborn with 3 blasters and 2 cannons.

@CK: I'm not so sure that really makes any difference. Changing one Fighter for a Ravager only adds one more lance and takes away four large blasts. I don't really see that as making a significant difference in the anti-tank ability of the army. I think it would need more changes than just that.

@OP: Now, I don't really know the metagame in your area, but the necrotoxin missiles aren't worth the upgrade, in my opinion. The S6 on the basic missiles are going to be wounding the majority of your targets on a 2+, anyway, and can at least be used as an emergency anti-light vehicle weapon in a pinch. The pinning effect of the necrotoxin usually doesn't help out much 'cuz most targets are either fearless or have a really high leadership.

I'm kind of afraid that you might be just a little light on anti-vehicle weaponry, but it might work for you. Right now, you have 15 anti-vehicle weapons in 1700 points. In my DE lists, I try to have as close to one anti-vehicle weapon for every 100 points of army, and it seems to work out ok for the most part. If you did convert one Razorwing to a Ravager, you'd have the points to convert a couple Venons to Raiders with Flickerfields. That would get your anti-vehicle count up to 18. I don't think you'd miss the 4 splinter cannons too much, as the missiles from the Fighters will already have hit most hordes pretty hard.

OP:

Two concerns.

1. You mentioned in your OP about your missiles pinning stuff. Don't make pinning a part of your strategy, ever. Most of the things in the game are LD9, 10, or fearless. Most of the things with worse leadership are mounted and inaccessible until their transport is gone.

2. You ask if your list will work. Work for what? Work on the table? Sure. Are you asking if that's a GT level list? No, its not. Your three biggest challenges at the competive level (and the three most common armies out there) are going to be mechanized Blood Angels (6 predators, landspeeder or two, razorbacks), Mechanized IG (6-9 chimeras, hydras, manticores, vendettas), and razorspam / TWC Space Wolves (3 units of fire-splitting longfangs with anti-tank support razorbacks, supported by more razorbacks. Do you have the means to contest that kind of vehicle list? Because those are what you're *most* likely to face off against, especially if you win a game or two.

Dashofpepper wrote:OP:

Two concerns.

1. You mentioned in your OP about your missiles pinning stuff. Don't make pinning a part of your strategy, ever. Most of the things in the game are LD9, 10, or fearless. Most of the things with worse leadership are mounted and inaccessible until their transport is gone.

2. You ask if your list will work. Work for what? Work on the table? Sure. Are you asking if that's a GT level list? No, its not. Your three biggest challenges at the competive level (and the three most common armies out there) are going to be mechanized Blood Angels (6 predators, landspeeder or two, razorbacks), Mechanized IG (6-9 chimeras, hydras, manticores, vendettas), and razorspam / TWC Space Wolves (3 units of fire-splitting longfangs with anti-tank support razorbacks, supported by more razorbacks. Do you have the means to contest that kind of vehicle list? Because those are what you're *most* likely to face off against, especially if you win a game or two.

1: true, its not really a ingenius strategy but i think its nice that you got the possibility to give a unit two pinning test with one Razorwing for a few points extra.

2: yep, a heavy Mech list hits hard (for any DE list). I want to keep those razorwings out of range but thats going to be tough. Should I field shatterfield grenades with S7 for killing those nasty razorbacks? Could I have the means to contest those vehicle lists?

The Shatterfields are a little less reliable for destroying vehicles due to the AP-, but it's not impossible. I've used them as such in a desperation mode and managed to get it to work. Ironically, the Shatterfield barrage does have the (admittedly unlikely) ability to affect multiple vehicles in a closely packed grouping. Not something to really count on, but something else to consider.

Oh yes forget about the ap-. But it will only effect a vehicle with the center of the blast so no multiple vehicles, right?

@CK: I'm not so sure that really makes any difference. Changing one Fighter for a Ravager only adds one more lance and takes away four large blasts. I don't really see that as making a significant difference in the anti-tank ability of the army. I think it would need more changes than just that.

It's a points savings measure more than anything...and it does allow one more lance. Is it the best option? No, but then again he's already at a disadvantage with the type of list he's attempting to build...which appears to be more style over substance. Is that a bad thing? Not at all. I think with lots of practice, patience, etc. the list can still win games, although I wouldn't expect it to be a top performer vs. the builds Dash listed. Does that mean he can't beat those lists? No, but he'll have an extremely difficult time attempting it. At least he's taking enough cannons to keep long fangs honest. However, he still needs to address how to crack transports consistently...something DE have trouble with anyways..even with more than 15 DL weapons.

shogun:

You asked if you could have the means of contesting those vehicle lists.....Yes. I've taken down plenty of Mechanized BA and Mechanized SW lists, and even the Mech IG lists I've been unfortunately paired against (my least favorite matchup) except for one case - in which I won the roll to go first and my Mech IG opponent seized the initiative and had a turkey shoot.

It can absolutely be done.

With your list? Nope.

But....if you're not a tournament player, your ability to take down tournament lists isn't really relevant. =D

Dashofpepper wrote:shogun:

You asked if you could have the means of contesting those vehicle lists.....Yes. I've taken down plenty of Mechanized BA and Mechanized SW lists, and even the Mech IG lists I've been unfortunately paired against (my least favorite matchup) except for one case - in which I won the roll to go first and my Mech IG opponent seized the initiative and had a turkey shoot.

It can absolutely be done.

With your list? Nope.

But....if you're not a tournament player, your ability to take down tournament lists isn't really relevant. =D

I only play about two (dutch)tournaments every year but I like a competitive armylist/setup. I really like to play DE but its so fragile. Iam trying to make a armylist with 3 razorwings and the baron (I think he's a must..) I like to sting the enemies army from a save distance and go in for the kill after turn 4 or so.. But with 3 razorwings I still need a lot of anti-tank and scoring units and thats the problem, expecially against those top 3 lists.. What would you pick after 3 razorwings and the baron....? Remember that Iam making a 1700 point list and not more..

What would I pick after 3 razorwings and the Baron?

Well, to be honest, I would put down the razorwings and pick up three ravagers. The entire DE codex is CHOCK-FULL of anti-infantry options. Everywhere. Splinter-rifles, liquifiers, splinter-cannons, splinter cannons, splinter cannons. You only get three heavy support slots, and they provide your best anti-armour. So using your heavy supports as anti-infantry platforms when every other slot in every other FoC option does a pretty damned good job at anti-infantry is counterintuitive to me.

Keep in mind that there *is* no safe distance for you to hide at. All the stuff that can hurt you is generally as long range as you or longer: 36" on some, 48" on more, and 60-72+ to unlimited range on some. Outranging your opponents isn't a safe bet.

Dashofpepper wrote:What would I pick after 3 razorwings and the Baron?

Well, to be honest, I would put down the razorwings and pick up three ravagers. The entire DE codex is CHOCK-FULL of anti-infantry options. Everywhere. Splinter-rifles, liquifiers, splinter-cannons, splinter cannons, splinter cannons. You only get three heavy support slots, and they provide your best anti-armour. So using your heavy supports as anti-infantry platforms when every other slot in every other FoC option does a pretty damned good job at anti-infantry is counterintuitive to me.

With those razorwings I only give up one dark lance and instead I get 4 large blast. dont forget that those Splinter weapons still need 4+to wound and those 4 large blast can be fired at once and will most likely wound on a 2+. All those dead enemy infantry in turn 1 will mean less shooting in return. Razorwings are only av 10 but on the other hand there not open-topped. Its still possible to drop S6 blasts onto razorbacks If really necessary. I do realize its better to have 3 lances for only a little more than 100 points because with DE you need every Lance you can bring with all the heavy Mech. I really like those Haywire blasters because the will always do sumthing and thats why I like to use scourges to do the tankhunting..

Dashofpepper wrote:Keep in mind that there *is* no safe distance for you to hide at. All the stuff that can hurt you is generally as long range as you or longer: 36" on some, 48" on more, and 60-72+ to unlimited range on some. Outranging your opponents isn't a safe bet.

If the enemy uses 48 inch weapons I really need to hug the board edges and rely on my nightshield. If the fly within 36 inch the need to take out those units that can reach them with their weapons. Its the weapons with more than 48 inch and those fast BA vehicles Iam worried about. I can never completely outrange the enemy units but its still possible to evade and flank its army.

Question: what does your DE tournament armylist look like?

shogun, a couple of notes:

1. I don't know what your converted razorwings look like, but no part of your model can be hanging off the table.

2. Your phrase, "All those dead enemy infantry in turn 1 will mean less shooting in return" makes me curious what kind of armies you play against. Anytime I see an army that isn't entirely meched up I grimace, because they're about to get their poop pushed in.

If you're playing against hybrid armies consistently....continue as you were - the advise that I give is always based around the presumption that people are playing against competitive lists, and I try bringing them up to the level of being able to compete with those kinds of lists. But as I said; I think that against the *mainstays* of competitive 40k, you've got nothing. *shrugs*

Dashofpepper wrote:shogun, a couple of notes:

1. I don't know what your converted razorwings look like, but no part of your model can be hanging off the table.

2. Your phrase, "All those dead enemy infantry in turn 1 will mean less shooting in return" makes me curious what kind of armies you play against. Anytime I see an army that isn't entirely meched up I grimace, because they're about to get their poop pushed in.

If you're playing against hybrid armies consistently....continue as you were - the advise that I give is always based around the presumption that people are playing against competitive lists, and I try bringing them up to the level of being able to compete with those kinds of lists. But as I said; I think that against the *mainstays* of competitive 40k, you've got nothing. *shrugs*

1: I know, but I will try to keep them save as long as I can. The same goes for Ravagers..

2: Well, i play against all sorts of armies but i also enjoy the Dutch GT. Compared to other GT's I believe that not much competitive lists/players join the Dutch GT, but their are always a few and I also like to beat them at the last round. Good chance that the will have a heavy mech list (although last year a daemonslist won..)

U still didn't answer my question: what 1700 list would you bring?

always happy to help a fellow european out . How about something like this?

Baron

3 trueborn with 3x blasters
Raider

3 trueborn with 2x blasters
Raider

3 trueborn with 2x blasters
Raider

5 kabalite warriors with blaster
Venom with extra cannon

5 kabalite warriors with blaster
Venom with extra cannon

5 kabalite warriors with blaster
Venom with extra cannon

5 kabalite warriors with blaster
Venom with extra cannon

5 Scourges with 2x haywire blasters

5 Scourges with 2x Haywire blasters

Razorwing

Razorwing

Razorwing

It has 20 lances. You could swap one or two troop venoms for raiders, but I think 20 lances is ok at 1700. Raiders on trueborn because they'll be moving forward so you can go for side shots. The kabalite warriors can move up, but I would play them more defensively then the trueborns, and that's why they have venoms that don't care about side shots.

thanks Haizelhof!

yes I think your list has the best setup. Maybe i would joint the two scourge units and add the baron for the +1 coversave. If the all jump towards a enemy unit and kill them with the shardcarbines the will get a paintoken. I cant split fire but the unit will survive more, i think. I like to have at least one good CC-unit but with a 1700 point army it will cost to much anti tank.

great input!

It's just that I've found haywire blasters are what keep DE in the game against seriously meched up opponents, suppressing tanks, and 2 haywire blasters is often enough. If you join them up they might survive more, but you're at a bigger disadvantage against serious mech.

well, with 2 units you can shoot at two tanks and both cripple them and let the Dark Lance's and blasters finish it off. you need a 6 to get a penetrating hit so most times you will only get a few glancing hits. I dont like it when I get 3x "may not shoot" results.. 8/

Its indeed better to divide the shots but those 5 scourges will die fast after the use the haywire blasters.. on the other hand... its easier to deepstrike 5 scourges as a sacrifice unit if you want to cripple that special anti-Dark Eldar tank (Hydra?)..

Buuut.....With 10 scourges +baron (+1 coversave) the can survive a few shots and use their 4 haywhireblasters again.

damn tough choice... have to playtest both options....