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Hello!

I'm looking at the Necron Deceiver's power "Grand Illusion" that lets him redeploy things.

Is placing something in reserve a deployment?

IE, if I win the roll to go first, could I announce that I'm reserving things, then use Grand Illusion to actually put them on the table? Or to bait someone with a unit of warriors, then redeploy them into reserves?

If you look at the actual wording of the Reserves rules, placing something into reserve is something you do instead of deploying.

So no, placing something into Reserves is not Deployment.

It must begin on the board in order for that power to take effect. If your read the wording under the Warrior entry it says they may choose to start the game in reserves, then later mentions any that do not eventually deploy by the end of the game are considered destroyed, indicating that the two, are in fact, quite separate. If you can find something to support your argument however, or if anyone else can, for the love of God prove me wrong as that would be awesome to do.

Nah, probably not legal; was just a thought that I had.

This wording in combination with the SM combat squads rule (may only be performed when the unit is deployed) reinforces this - arrival by Drop Pod is listed as the only exception in that case, inferring that arrival from reserves or walking onto the table in a Dawn of War mission is not normally considered 'deployment'.

It's also similat to DE Lady Malys Precognisant rule, but her rule specifically gives permission to redeploy including placing units in reserve.
The Deceiver has no such permission.
Also backed up by the reserve rule (page 94, BRB) "When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy on or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve."
So placing a unit in reserve is not deploying it.

There are 2 Questions I see here Dash...

Question 1: Does placing stuff in reserve count as deployment

Question 2: Does taking stuff out of reserve count as deployment

and in the most basic forms, the asnwer to both of those questions are "yes".

The Mission special rules (such as "Reserves") are located under the rules for Deploying forces. ((Speaking of which, @Azure, the 5th Edition "reserves" and the Necron Warrior "Reserves" are two seperate rules, if you want to simply hide your crons off the board edge (and NOT deploy them via monolith) you can put them in reserves using standard reserve rules, but you have to designate which rules you are using each time))

If a special rule allows you to "redeploy" then you get to do just that, "follow the rules for delpoyment" a second time (thus "re" depoy, it doesn't say "May be placed somewhere else on the board in your deployment zone" it says "redeploy") which would entitle you to place things into/take things out of reserve. It also allows you to change certain "reserve arrival types" for example, an Infiltrator/scount can instead out flank (even if you originally intended it to arrive via Drop Pod) due to the nature of the 5th edition rule set...

... now for all you RAWcores ready to tar-and-feather me due to the "Permissive wording on Lady Malys" you should also keep in mind that she is the FIRST character with a rule like this in 5th edition (unless there is some Tyranid piece of wargear I'm leaving out...). Its not really fair to list explinations/oversimplications as "permissive" rulings when in reality, its probably just something that needed to be included as the rules for deployment (including reserves) have changed rather dramatically compared to when things like the Deciever and Eldrad existed...

If I were the TO Dash, I would allow you to do this, its not "cheesy" its not "rule-breaking" hell its one of the last aspects of this game that actually involves "strategy" as opposed to "Guys in red power-armor and lucky rolls".

If you are worried someone might do this to you, deploy tactically sound and you shouldn't have an issue with it (hell, the only things that can do it are DE/Eldar/Necrons, and if you are scared of them, I hear Warmachine is a mighty fun game that you should try!)

~DAR



Automatically Appended Next Post:

time wizard wrote: "When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy on or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve."
So placing a unit in reserve is not deploying it.

wait... wat?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

time wizard wrote: "When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy on or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve."
So placing a unit in reserve is not deploying it.

wait... wat?

As I cited, when you place a unit in reserve, you are not deploying it.
Look at page 94 BRB, the last paragraph on the left, "Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one off the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later." {emphasis mine}
Units that have been placed in reserve have not yet been deployed.

Generally speaking...

Deployment = Initial Phase of the game where players first have the opportunity to either place units on the board or put them in reserve.

deploying = the physical act of placing a unit on the board.

time wizard wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

time wizard wrote: "When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy on or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve."
So placing a unit in reserve is not deploying it.

wait... wat?

As I cited, when you place a unit in reserve, you are not deploying it.
Look at page 94 BRB, the last paragraph on the left, "Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one off the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later." {emphasis mine}
Units that have been placed in reserve have not yet been deployed.

So then you are "Deploying it" during the "deployment" phase of the game, which is before turn 1, and this is what allows you to "deploy" outside of normal "deployment". So it is an action during the normal "deployment" phase that counst as deployment (if not, you would be unable to deploy during a normal game turn, as individual turns do not have deployment phases ((They have arrivals from reserve, but those deployments are set up during the deployment phase and are rolled for/ "deployed" during normal gameplay_

To interpret reserves as anything but "deployement' invalidates the legality of the "reserves" mission special rules in general as they are Mission Special Rules regarding Deployment (and if you were to use them "instead of Deployment" you would never be able to use them, as they require deployment)

Now, if you were to say that Reserves are a form of "Deployment" outside the normal range of "deployment" that is completely fine, yet the Deciever does not state "normal deployment" but "re-deployed under the rules for deployment((Which would include Deepstrike, outflank, and RESERVES))" (which means you simply enter the unit as if it had not yet been normally deployed, and make the new decision). As a side not as well, Decievers ability does not care if a unit is in play or not at the time it is used (as techinically, none of the models are "in play", the game has yet to begin)

I also have to ammend that Eldrad is not covered by this interpretation as his special rule specifies "repositioning" (NOT redeployment) and also restricts the repositioning to "inside the deployment zone" (which Reserves would not be)

Hope that helps!

~DAR

"may choose not to deploy" is pretty damn clear

You havent deployed when you are put in reserve, therefore you CANNOT "re deploy" someone into reserve, unless (like Lady Malys) you have a special rule explicitly allowing it.

If one is in reserves one has not deployed. This is because deployment is 'entering' or being placed on the board (such a a DS).

"First the players deploy their forces (apart from any unit left in reserve or that chose to use their ‘infiltrate’ special rule)." Pg 92 (apart not being deployed)
"Then they deploy their infiltrators" Pg 92 (again if one doesn't infiltrate then one doesn't deploy)
"All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deployment" Pg 93 (clarification for the first two quotes)

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

time wizard wrote: "When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy on or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve."
So placing a unit in reserve is not deploying it.

wait... wat?

"When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve."

Placing the unit into reserve happens during deployment, yes. But it happens instead of deploying the unit.

Does anyone else ever see a word so much that it loses meaning for a while? IE, it turns into letters that don't make any meaningful sense in your head.

If you see "DEPLOY" written enough times, the same thing happens. =p

Dashofpepper wrote:Does anyone else ever see a word so much that it loses meaning for a while? IE, it turns into letters that don't make any meaningful sense in your head.

If you see "DEPLOY" written enough times, the same thing happens. =p

Polish.

I have a list of finishing tasks that I keep thinking are European.

People are missing the primary function of Decievers ability and the Rules for Reserves/Deployment.

The very first paragraph under preparing reserves it states:

"[DURING DEPLOYMENT (so, when a unit is being deployed) it ]may choose not to deploy...."

So basically, say I took 3 squads of warriors, a necron lord, the deciever and a monolith.

I choose to deploy first.

Deployment for Warrior Unit A (10 warriors) - Deploy in southwest board corner

Deployment for Warrior unit B (20 warriors)- Reserves (codex rule, must come from monolith)

Deployment for Warrior unit C (10 warriors and a lord)- Reserves (normal rules) with Lord attached

Deployment for Monolith - Reserves (deep strike)

Deployment for Deciever - Deploy mid-zone.

Opponent deploys /Scount/Infiltrate

Deciever Ability Activates. I select unit A and roll a 6 (So I can redeploy the unit using mission deployment rules and select a second unit)

Reployment of Unit A - Reserves (Codex rule) ((Since I get the option to "re-deploy" I can choose not to deploy from this point (((as I am no longer deployed))) and go into reserves))

I then select the Monolith and roll a 4 (same result)

Redeployment of Monolith - Deploy mid zone ((RULZ ERROR - BRB Forbids units in reserve from being deployed, deepstrike decision unable to change; overridden by Codex rule that redeploys (therefor, the decision to be in reserves has been undone)

Select Unit - Warrior unit B - Roll a 5 (damn I'm lucky)

Redeployment of unit B - Behind monolith/deciever

Etc etc until the entire army is redeployed in the manner I choose it to (including Reserves/Deepstrike/Outflank etc) and the only "cheating" going on is potential loaded dice (no-body should be THAT lucky all the tme...)

So Dash, in concliusion, nothing in the current Necron Codex, or the BRB, prevents you from using the strategy you provided as an example.




~DAR

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:The very first paragraph under preparing reserves it states:

"DURING DEPLOYMENT it may choose not to deploy...."

So chosing not to deploy is deploying? It is done during deployment, but I do not read that as the same thing.

(See: run)

kirsanth wrote: So chosing not to deploy is deploying? It is done during deployment, but I do not read that as the same thing.

(See: run)

Yes, much like how choosing not to choose is a choice.


((BTW, its problems like these that really remind you just how stupid GW was to remove the detailed deployment rules... hopefully in 6th!))

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Yes, much like how choosing not to choose is a choice.

This, at least, makes sense. Choosing not to deploy seems to imply the option chosen was not to deploy in the deployment phase.

kirsanth wrote:This, at least, makes sense. Choosing not to deploy seems to imply the option chosen was not to deploy in the deployment phase.

But what was that choice? And what would you label that choice, when would you say that choice arrives (as there really are no rules that state when you put down which units, or if they must all be magically placed simultaniously).

If you won't call it "the first step of deployment" for a unit (and thus, applicable to any redeployments) then what do you call it?

Will you also force your opponent to place one/more of their units in reserve before deploying ANYTHING, if not, what limits the amount of times in a deployment phase that a player can decide it wants to place units in reserve, and again, what do you label that decision. If not "deployment" (and thus, subject to re-deployment) then what else?

Also, I'm at work and GWs site recently got Websense-blocked, I'ma be pissed as hell if I find out this is covered by an errata/FAQ when I get home...

~DAR

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:But what was that choice? And what would you label that choice, when would you say that choice arrives

I would call it choosing not to deploy, which is done during deployment.

Editing to add:
Do you think running is shooting?

"Choosing not to deploy"

Really simple and straightforward, very little room for error. you cannot "redeploy" something that has not been deployed

Your error leads to SM being able to combat squad while in reserve, which simply isnt true.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Choosing not to deploy"

Really simple and straightforward, very little room for error. you cannot "redeploy" something that has not been deployed

Your error leads to SM being able to combat squad while in reserve, which simply isnt true.

Agreed.

Agreed as well. The rules are crystal clear: putting a unit into reserve is done instead of deploying it...ergo deploying a unit is NOT the same thing as putting a unit in reserve.

For a rule to allow units to be placed into reserve, take a look at Lady Malys's precognizant rule in the Dark Eldar codex.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Choosing not to deploy"

Really simple and straightforward, very little room for error. you cannot "redeploy" something that has not been deployed

Your error leads to SM being able to combat squad while in reserve, which simply isnt true.

Now I'm really confused... unless specifically addressed in an FAQ(No access to FAQs form work PC anymore... damn websense) please tell me (based on the pictures provided) why a unit cannot be split into Combat Squads from reserve...





To me, "Reserves", or putting something "into reserves" is an alternative form of deployment (because, in reality, there is little other characteristics to be applied to it). Infact I'd go as far as to say the "Reserves" special rules are in relation to "deployment types" and in 5th edition, would be considered a legal "rule for deployment".

Thankfully, thats what the decievers rule targets...



Infact, based on your definition (and this is directed at anyone who claims that "reserves is done instead of deployment" not just Nos...) you CANNOT use Decievers Grand Illusion if ANY units are held in reserve, infact, you can't even start the game, as both conditions require the "enemy army" to be deployed. If a unit in Reserves =/= a unit Deployed, the condition is not met, as the entire army is not deployed!

Decievers rule also brings up another side question (and Dash, if you ever pull this off, send me the battle report and pics as well!)... Can the Deciever use his GI rule to redeploy in Dawn of War within 18" of his opponent (assuming the necron player deployed first, as the 18" restriction is only on the player who deploys SECOND)?

~DAR

You are getting your terms mixed up, for a start. I said you cannot combat squad while IN reserves, not when coming ON from reserves. You are able to combat squad *when* you deploy, which is when you arrive from reserves.

The reason why we say "reserves is instead of deploying" is because that is what the rulebook actually says, and if you had read the reserves rule you wouldhave seen that.

You declare something is in reserves *instead of* deploying the model. Your "to me" is irrelevant, as it entirely contradicts the rulebook.

It's subtle, granted, but there IS a difference.

Yes, reserves are declared during the deployment phase.

This does not automatically mean, that it counts as deployment. Otherwise running would be shooting, because it also happens in the shooting phase instead of shooting. Eldar jetbike movement would be assaulting and so on.

you CANNOT use Decievers Grand Illusion if ANY units are held in reserve, infact, you can't even start the game, as both conditions require the "enemy army" to be deployed. If a unit in Reserves =/= a unit Deployed, the condition is not met, as the entire army is not deployed!

enemy army =/= entire enemy army.
It is also wrong that you cannot start the game, because grand illusion is only an option and its execution is not necessary for the game to start.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your error leads to SM being able to combat squad while in reserve, which simply isnt true.

Now I'm really confused... unless specifically addressed in an FAQ(No access to FAQs form work PC anymore... damn websense) please tell me (based on the pictures provided) why a unit cannot be split into Combat Squads from reserve...

They can be split into combat squads when they arrive from reserve. Nosferatu said (correctly) they cannot be split into combat squads while in reserve. Here's how it works:
You have a 10 man unit, you place it in reserve, on subsequent turns you roll one die for the unit to arrive from reserve, when it arrives and you are going to deploy it you can then decide to split it into combat squads. Each combat squad is a separate unit from that point and may be deployed in two different places.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:To me, "Reserves", or putting something "into reserves" is an alternative form of deployment (because, in reality, there is little other characteristics to be applied to it). Infact I'd go as far as to say the "Reserves" special rules are in relation to "deployment types" and in 5th edition, would be considered a legal "rule for deployment".

The rules are really quite clear on this, when you deploy your army you can choose not to deploy any number of units. They are still part of your army and will become available later in the game, at which point they will arrive and move onto the board. Think of it as you are choosing to delay their deployment until a later time. When they will arrive is decided by a dice roll (until turn 5) and how they will arrive is a decision that cannot be changed.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Infact, based on your definition (and this is directed at anyone who claims that "reserves is done instead of deployment" not just Nos...) you CANNOT use Decievers Grand Illusion if ANY units are held in reserve, infact, you can't even start the game, as both conditions require the "enemy army" to be deployed. If a unit in Reserves =/= a unit Deployed, the condition is not met, as the entire army is not deployed!

The entire army has been deployed. Some are on the board at the start and the rest will arrive later.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Decievers rule also brings up another side question (and Dash, if you ever pull this off, send me the battle report and pics as well!)... Can the Deciever use his GI rule to redeploy in Dawn of War within 18" of his opponent (assuming the necron player deployed first, as the 18" restriction is only on the player who deploys SECOND)?~DAR

If so, then any other special rule concerning re-deployment could do the same thing, which I don't think is the way it's supposed to work.

You get to shuffle what is "deployed" on the table, not what is stored in your figure case. Same as Eldrad.

Homer

Missed the side question - yes, you could redeploy to within 18" of the player if you deployed first. However NB would have to be on the table to begin with, you couldnt take him out of reserves as, hopefully you've found in the rulebook, you "reserve" instead of deploying on the table.