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I've heard that storm troopers are uncompetitive, ratlings are overpriced, ogryns arn't worth it, marbo is a one-hit wonder, and psyker battle squads are worthless. So tell me, IG players, is there a viable elite choice for the guard, or does the elite slot stay open and lonely to make more room for the heavy support and fast attack?

The elites are solid, they are just overshadowed by the other slots.

Stormtroopers are pretty good. 100 points (ish) to drop a couple of meltas very accurately anywhere on the board. Vets can do this but cost twice as much and take a fast attack slot to do it. If you already have 3 valks then a ST squad is a good addition. If you give them plasma then you have a squad that can drop behind a barricade and gun down a load of MEQs, avoiding wound allocation worries.

Ogryns are nice models and are a way to condense a lot of firepower and combat potential into a single small area, not a bad thing.

Marbo is cheap and a very good psychological weapon, he may not achieve much but I your opponent changes their plan because of him you can use it to your advantage.

PBS? Worthless? Their abilities make them excellent in either making things run or plopping down a S9 blast from a chimera

Actually I have had great success with ratlings. I love the little guys. Ogyrns are definitely a solid choice. 6 of them can make a wonderous mess of things. But you probably could spend the points better elsewhere Stormtroopers never seem to be that useful. Veterans are a much better choice. As for PBS, I have never fielded them but I have seen them used and played against them and they have done quite well

As for Marbo...just read my signature

So to sum up ratlings and Marbo for the win!

Depends on the pointage...PBS could be used on higher pointages for weaken resolve. But most of the time you'd focus on other the other FOC first.

IIRC they use Storm troopers in Blob lists. 5-man melta I believe.

As for Marbo...IMHO he's really good, the problem is you don't need him in your army.

kenshin620 wrote:PBS? Worthless? Their abilities make them excellent in either making things run or plopping down a S9 blast from a chimera

+1 PBS are great.


Also Stormtroopers are fantastic, but tend to be lackluster in the way most people try to use them.

For example they try to stick them into Valkyries, or as full squads.

The only really cost-effective and useful way to use them is as a 5 man squad with meltas. Deepstrike them and use their drop-tactic to hopefully get a hit. Honestly, in my experience, trying to do anything else just falls flat on its face.

I've used double plamsa 5 man STs to great effect taking out the last of a blood angels scoring units, or even going for side/rear shots on tanks they work ok.

I'm extremely partial to my Stormtroopers. I run them as e-man squads with 2 Meltas. They also have Chimeras. Depending on the board, the opponent, the objectives, and who goes first, the Chimeras are either used by the STs, or given to PCSs.

When STs take Recon and gets Scouts, you can have a 32" melta threat range on turn 1 if they deploy and Scouts move with their Chimeras. I find that option to be invaluable, though I don't always use it.

Basically, they're flexible to an extreme, and could have a place in any list that's already covered their bases and wants a little extra kick. I usually use Meltas because lack of melta is a weakness in the rest of my army, but I've seen Ailaros use plasma to good effect, as well.

When STs take Recon and gets Scouts, you can have a 32" melta threat range on turn 1 if they deploy and Scouts move with their Chimeras. I find that option to be invaluable, though I don't always use it.

I don't think the Scout ability is given over to a dedicated transport. I might be wrong about that but I think I may have read that somewhere in the rulebook.

grayspark wrote:

When STs take Recon and gets Scouts, you can have a 32" melta threat range on turn 1 if they deploy and Scouts move with their Chimeras. I find that option to be invaluable, though I don't always use it.

I don't think the Scout ability is given over to a dedicated transport. I might be wrong about that but I think I may have read that somewhere in the rulebook.

Kinda, i think they can only scout if their squad with that rule are embarked within it.

p 76, if a unit with Scouts is deployed in their dedicated transport, it has Scouts too. That's why I buy the Chimera for the STs, even if the PCS ends up in it most of the time. It provides more options that way.

Marbo is fun and a good disruption/distraction unit. Not needed but for his points he usually will have some effect.

I have been using Stormtroopers with a pair of plasmaguns lately and they usually seem to do the job I give them. They can really ruin the day of someone using MCs.

The PBS is very hit or miss. I've had it be critical in winning games before. I've also had it fail to do anything in games before. Its flexible enough against most armies but fearless and psychic defense can really cut into its returns.

I've not used Ratlines or Ogrins as I don't have the models.

Cheers,
~Volkan

And here I am, fresh from another thread where I complained about people comparing veterans to stormtroopers. They are NOT supposed to be doing the same thing. Just as an example: Can veterans deep strike? No? Then why compare them at all?! "Oh, but I can take a valk or vend and outflank the veterans in it, so it doesn't really matter!" you say? For the price of that squad, you'll get two minimum storm trooper squads with your weapon of choice! "But my vets are scoring, stormtroopers aren't which means they suck!" you continue. Not so at all. Stormtroopers, when using their airborne assault tactic thingie have a surprisingly high chance to either roll a hit or roll low enough scatter to not matter, with a little bit of clever placement. Use stormtroopers just as a CSM player would use a termicide squad: Drop next to what you want gone, point your weapons at it and laugh. Both plasma and melta stormtroopers are good.

TL;DR: Stop comparing vets to stormtroopers. One is a disposable annihalator, the other is a very good scoring unit.

I agree AW.
While vets can take similar gear and score, Stormies can get where they need to be easily without needing a ride. Also you don't have to deepstrike the squad for it to still be useful. They can also make for a great outflanking squad or be infiltrated into a decent vantage point. Lets be honest though, popping them behind tanks to blast rear armor does seem to be the most utilized role I hear mentioned.
The only thing I have noticed lacking about them is their attrition rate, and I'm sure that couldn't be me doing things like slapping em down next to a tervigon with 3 squads of gaunts in front of them...

Cheers,
~Volkan

PBS have never had success against my army, because it's all Eldar tanks! But the unit has huge potential.

Marbo is very random, but can do amazing things and you can strike at anything on the board. Last time I faced him he killed a fire dragon unit and their wave serpent, 3 times his own value. Equally I've seen him kill 1-2 models and die. I think full mech IG doesn't usually consider him because the army is so strong already, and just stacks up as many tank weapons as possible. He is common and useful in more foot or hybrid armies.

Stormtroopers have a definite niche as dropping meltaguns. Their actual hotshot lasguns are overpriced for what you get though.

Ratlings are ok for snipers, as in they are only useful against opponents with elite infantry/monstorus creatures who are not in transports, and who don't take any flamers or fast assault units.

Ogryns, never even seen them used. There's a reason for that.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:
Ogryns, never even seen them used. There's a reason for that.

Yup. People don't take them because they've heard from someone that they're bad. While I haven't actually tried Ogryns myself, I've seen two or three players successfully use them. They work pretty OK if you want some sort of countercharge unit, placing them behind bubble-wraps for example. They're not exactly brilliant in a lower points game though, due to their cost.

Ogryn are a great role-reversal in Close Combat against Marines. Instead of the marines hitting and wounding on 3s, they hit on 4s and wound on 5s. And instead of the IG hitting and wounding on 4 and 5, it's 4 and 3. I believe they even come out on top against comparable points in terminators. The only problem I've seen (through Ailaros' experience) is their LD sucks, even with stubborn. The addition of a Lord Commissar or Yarrick help, but at this point you have to be playing a high points level and already have your basics covered.

A primaris makes a good addition to ogryns, it boosts the ld and gives you a lot more firepower.

The main advantage of hot shots is that they don't lessen your firepower due to wound allocation. If you fired normal lasguns against marines then they could stack the plasma on one model, not so with STs.

Trickstick wrote:A primaris makes a good addition to ogryns, it boosts the ld and gives you a lot more firepower.

Nice! I'll keep this in mind if I try them. I think I'd still miss the rerolls from a Commissar, though.

With the exception of ratlings, which really are just that bad, the guard elites slots are worth taking and, and I know I go against to say this, but I don't think they're overpriced either.

The thing with elites slots is that they're much more difficult to use than, say, a basilisk. The thing that's easy to miss is that while HS slots have no purpose other than to sit there and shoot stuff, Elite slots trade in some of their firepower to give you sneaky options.

That tervigon thought it was pretty cool hiding out of LOS and spawning termagaunts everywhere, at least, until a plasma stormie squad OF DEATH pin-point deepstrikes next to it and blows it off the board. That space marine player may get cocky knowing that you're not bringing any tanks, but then they start loosing whole tac squads to PBSs' soulstorms. They may look at ogryn and think how silly it is that the guard player brought overpriced guardsmen, until an ogryn squad wipes the floor with a 5-man termie squad in close combat.

HS slots are all about raw firepower. Elites slots are about less killing power, but being able to apply it differently, taking better advantage of opponent's mistakes, and synergizing in different ways with your troops choices.

If you think elites units are crappy because they cost a lot for the damage they put out, you probably don't deserve to use elites slots.

I just don't see how Ogryns are worth it. I just used the Heresy Combat Calculator, calculated the effect of 170 points of Ogryns versus 170 point of Tactical Marines (a full squad, incidentally.) Between Ripper Gun shots and the Ogryns charging, there are 3 Marine casualties, versus one (statistical) wound caused to the Ogryns in close combat. Sure, the Ogryns win, but the Marines probably won't break, and the Ogryns will have to spend the next several turns grinding through a simple infantry squad. Once you start tossing Ogryns against dedicated close combat squads, I anticipate the odds will be tilted more and more against our thick-headed friends. Sure, Stubborn helps them stick around, but if they barely win against normal Tac Marines with a single attack apiece, they'll tie in Close Combat with Marines equipped with Pistol and CCWs, and lose once attacks start getting to 3 or more.

I don't see Ogryns being anything more than an expensive gimmick.

Marbo is a good investment. A non-scattering deployment combined with a satchel charge is certainly worth every single point you pay for him. There rarely, if ever, is a lack of targets begging for S8 AP2.

Ratlings suffer because of their specialty ( ie. being snipers ). Sniper rifles really do not compare favorably with all the other ( proper ) weaponry the IG can bring to the table.

Stormtroopers are situational and can work. Just remember they are a suicide unit.

PBS. Situational. Against certain armies "Weaken resolve" can literally break their backs.

Ogryns...well what can you say that has not been said already? Expensive, no options, crappy leadership. Stubborn may sound cool but at Ld7 it means that they MUST win every round of close combat or you risk them breaking and getting butchered. Attaching an expensive IC to correct the Leadership deficiency in an already expensive unit is NOT the answer.

5 ogryns with yarrick in a chimera are alot of fun. you willl suprise people with that once. after that, they gun them down quick. if ogryns were not such and expensive model, in both cost and points, you would see more of them i think.

martin74 wrote:5 ogryns with yarrick in a chimera are alot of fun.

It really is. I run this unit quite a bit in my games (all friendly, I am not a tournament player) and it has really put a damper on my opponent's ability to overrun my firing lines. My regular opponent groans when he sees Yarrick and his Ogryn sidekicks because he knows they will become an annoying tar-pit unit. That and Yarrick just won't die in our games, but that is a story for another thread.

Ogryns could be good, but for this cost... You don't have enough elite slots to bother taking them

I don't take Stormtroopers either, because my vets are already doing what I need them for, and I want to keep my elite slots

What for, you ask?

First, the PBS is awesome. Not that expensive, can blast, but especially, it can destroy a unit leadership.

What for, you ask?

Second, the ratlings, which are really not expensive too (and the models are cool). The pinning ability of snipers is defended by leadership.. The combination of the two is quite a bitch stuff

And third, Marbo. Because Marbo :p Cheap, can do a lot of damage, can strike where your opponent thinks/hopes he's safe, but especially because he brings fun and stories to the board.

And as said above, if I had more elite slots, Stormtroopers would be more than welcome

So the deal with ogryn is to compare them, point for point, with regular guardsmen. They survive against bolter fire about as well and do roughly as much in shooting.

There are two key advantages to ogryn, though, over regular troops. The first is that certain hard counters to infantry hordes ogryn just chuckle at. For example, with blast weapons, ogryn pack the durability on fewer models, which means that you get many fewer hits. Throw in the + toughness and heavy flamers, which can put some serious hurt on light infantry in certain circumstances, are basically useless against ogryn.

The second key advantage is in close combat. S6 on the charge, trust me, hurts. Spend the price of 2 upgraded tac squads on 6 ogryn and a pimped out lord commissar, and you get 18 S5 attacks followed up by 21 S6 attacks on the charge. Before you even get to the powerfists, that's 5 dead marines, and when the 4 WS5 power fist attacks lay down, you're looking at one of the two tac squads being basically wiped out in a single charge with virtually no casualties in return as bolters-as-clubs bounce off their T5. Rinse and repeat. Also, ogryn charging utterly wreck vehicles that have AV10 in rear armor.

Ogryn put down a lot of durability in a small footprint, making them excellent linebacker squads, and great spearpoints for charging infantry. They can take cover from infantry models (3+ cover save with a commissar with a cloak? Yes please!), while simultaneously giving cover saves to vehicles behind them.

The purpose of ogryn is mass, which they actually do a pretty good job with, even for their points. Their only shortcoming is their high initial price (so, can only be used in 1500 point games or higher), and that they draw autocannon and missile launcher fire (which is good or bad, depending on the rest of your list).

Basically, you've got to see why troops choices are useful (apart from scoring) in order to see how ogryn can be useful, as ogryn are really an ultra-concentrated troops choice.

Ogiwan wrote:I just don't see how Ogryns are worth it. I just used the Heresy Combat Calculator, calculated the effect of 170 points of Ogryns versus 170 point of Tactical Marines (a full squad, incidentally.) Between Ripper Gun shots and the Ogryns charging, there are 3 Marine casualties, versus one (statistical) wound caused to the Ogryns in close combat. Sure, the Ogryns win, but the Marines probably won't break, and the Ogryns will have to spend the next several turns grinding through a simple infantry squad. Once you start tossing Ogryns against dedicated close combat squads, I anticipate the odds will be tilted more and more against our thick-headed friends. Sure, Stubborn helps them stick around, but if they barely win against normal Tac Marines with a single attack apiece, they'll tie in Close Combat with Marines equipped with Pistol and CCWs, and lose once attacks start getting to 3 or more.

I don't see Ogryns being anything more than an expensive gimmick.

That's because you see the ogryns as having the role as a combat unit which can wipe out enemy units, which they are definitely not...

You have just mentioned 1 of their roles, which is to lock down enemy units which otherwise could have rolled over an IG battleline. This they do VERY well, and if you can do this to a key enemy assault unit, then they have done thier job as the rest of the IG army destroys the enemy.

The other role is as a counterassault unit. And if the ogryns ends up counterassaulting a full 10 man tac squad then I tell you you have done something terribly wrong or the dice have been truly unkind to you, since ideally they will counterassault an enemy squad damaged by your shooting, and finish them off while the rest of your shooting then focuses on something else.

Finally, the ripper guns deal out quite a fair amount of dakka versus enemy infantry, and as a mobile chimera riding short ranged fire support unit they are actually not bad. I only dismount them when I have to, and there have been several games where they did not need to get off their ride, as there was nothing needed to assault with the ogryns...

Used this way, Ogryns will do their job most of the time. the important thing is that they help your army win, not win their points cost back in what they actually kill.

For the other elite slots, the PBS is a great equalizer versus non fearless deathstar units.....versus nobz bikers and thunderwolves, for example..cause enough casualties by shooting and watch them run as you make their ld value a 2 (unless they roll 2 1's)...the PBS is an excellent elites choice..the only drawback is you have to convert models to represent them (I used WHFB models, and equipped them with laspistols).

Marbo is an excellent one shot disruption unit. Going to ground helps him survive return fire, and if assaulted that means the enemy wasted a turn doing something to him instead of the rest of your army. And he has actually survived some battles for me.

Storm troops can do well if you focus on what you want their role to be, which is similar to marbo's (although they are more expensive). Precision deepstrike or outflanking is their role, so focus ion the special weapons they carry, not the hotshot lasguns...

Ratling have fared poorly in my hands, but that is because I tend to infiltrate them closer to the enemy. I see their uses, and the next time I field them I will treat them as part of the battleline, and deploy them within the range of my regimental standard.

When I was playing IG a lot, I had great success with Ogryns in 2000 point games. Just plop em in the middle of your gunline behind some cover, and keep them set up to meet any serious threats to the big guns. You're not using them as main-line assault troops. They can be real lifesavers against precise DS'ers like BA, Nids, and fellow IG. A considerable points investment that can save your other, even more considerable points investments.

I used to like stormtroopers more; at this point, I'd only use them to get Krieg Grenadiers on the table. Vets and platoons are both awesome, and that leaves you able to slip a squad of Ogryns in when games get big enough.

STs are great. They are great at deepstriking Melta, deepstriking plasma, and outflanking plasma in a chimera. I've been crazy enough to run 3 squads of them at a 1500pt lvl game. The deep striking melta took out 2 landspeeders, and made a vindicator basically useless. The other 2 had double plasma and outflanked. The one took out another vindicator and saved my but at the end of the game by knocking out an MEQ contesting an objective. The other took out a few MEQs on bikes, but other than that merely tied them up in combat for a turn then died. It was probably a very uncompetitive list considering I took 3 squads of them. I think a more competitive list would max them out at 2 squads: 2 deep striking melta squads or 2 outflanking plasma squads w/chimeras (depending on the rest of your AT and such).

I've honestly never had much luck with ratlings. They're probably the most points effective elite choice in the book though and would probably be better if supplemented with a PBS to knock down leadership.

So, I just ran some maths. Ratlings are theoretically better against MCs because of the poison, right? I calculated their average number of unsaved wounds vs a T6 and SV 3+, then divided by their points. I came up with Ratlings being as points efficient as average guardsmen with Lasguns against MCs.

In their favour, though, I didn't take rending into account. Also, that just considers pure offense, it doesn't count Stealth or Infiltrate or their WS2 S2, T2, and Ld 6. I think an Elite choice should be better in more ways or at least more points efficient than your most basic model with the most basic weapon.

Sniper Rifle upgrade in 6th!

(I'd like to point out this maths is based on spreadsheets I made a long time ago. There's a possibility it's slightly off. I'm welcome to second-guessing.)