Elite IG?

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**Requia**

You also forgot to take into account the better range. Guardsmen have to be close in order to get a decent effect out of those lasguns, and being within 12" of an MC is borderline suicide.

Also, the rending counts for a fair bit against those 3+ saves, especially if you consider the variation instead of the average wounds.

**ElCheezus**

Requia wrote:You also forgot to take into account the better range. Guardsmen have to be close in order to get a decent effect out of those lasguns, and being within 12" of an MC is borderline suicide.

Also, the rending counts for a fair bit against those 3+ saves, especially if you consider the variation instead of the average wounds.

Rending shines when you have a lot of wounds with which to roll 6's. Ratlings just don't have the volume to account for it. As for being within 12", I run power blobs, so I don't mind assaulting MCs (of T6. Wraithlords are obviously off my diet) with my guardsmen. I think the few bonuses of Ratlings really don't account for the fact that they should outperform what is literally the most basic model we can take. Especially when they take up 1/3 of your Elite slots instead of 1/30th of your Troops slots (6 slots, 5 infantry squads per platoon for the non IGers in the audience).

Also, I forgot pinning. But with most non IG enemies being LD 9 or 10, it's not something to count on anyway, just an occasional bonus.

**Almarine**

Well. 9 ratlings is 90pts. That's 6 hits and one rend. Combined with a basic PBS, it's 150pts for a decent chance of pinning something every turn.

Not especially hard for an opponent to shut down even before failed psychic tests, I guess, but it's cheap and some people don't even use their elite slots.

**Mizeran**

Ailaros wrote:With the exception of ratlings, which really are just that bad, the guard elites slots are worth taking and, and I know I go against to say this, but I don't think they're overpriced either.

The thing with elites slots is that they're much more difficult to use than, say, a basilisk. The thing that's easy to miss is that while HS slots have no purpose other than to sit there and shoot stuff, Elite slots trade in some of their firepower to give you sneaky options.

That tervigon thought it was pretty cool hiding out of LOS and spawning termagaunts everywhere, at least, until a plasma stormie squad OF DEATH pin-point deepstrikes next to it and blows it off the board. That space marine player may get cocky knowing that you're not bringing any tanks, but then they start loosing whole tac squads to PBSs' soulstorms. They may look at ogryn and think how silly it is that the guard player brought overpriced guardsmen, until an ogryn squad wipes the floor with a 5-man termie squad in close combat.

HS slots are all about raw firepower. Elites slots are about less killing power, but being able to apply it differently, taking better advantage of opponent's mistakes, and synergizing in different ways with your troops choices.

If you think elites units are crappy because they cost a lot for the damage they put out, you probably don't deserve to use elites slots.

+1 to this

And as a further comment I think Storm Troopers get a lot of undeserved criticism by many. Yes, they are the same pts as a space marine but they fill a purpose that many IG lists struggle with.

**Ogiwan**

The Heresy Combat Calculator might help you

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php

**Grundz**

Stormtroopers are great, I always infiltrate them out of the main path of my army, giving my opponent the choice to eat hotshot lasgun and plasma death all game, or divert some forces to dealing with them.

Ogryns are good, but only as backup assault for a blob they can absolutely clobber many things that the blobs have an issue with and their gun's aren't all that bad.

Personally Ive only used ogryns once and they did the job, however it /was/ against eldar

**Stormrider**

Stormtroopers are one of the finest units in the IG. I used to think Hellguns were awesome, not anymore. Hot-Shots are where it's at now. Granted, S3 isn't amazing, but AP3 is.

Plus they each have a pistol and CCW if they can assault a vunerable, camping unit (Devastators, Lootas, Heavy Weapon Teams, etc.)

**Che-Vito**

DakkaDakka wrote:

**Ailaros**

ElCheezus wrote:I calculated their average number of unsaved wounds vs a T6 and SV 3+, then divided by their points. I came up with Ratlings being as points efficient as average guardsmen with Lasguns against MCs. In their favour, though, I didn't take rending into account.

LoL.

So, just like the punisher, it looses out to guardsmen with lasguns. That's somehow not surprising. In any case, ratlings also lose out per-point to missile launcher HWSs, the latter of which also ignores armor, ignores FNP, causes ID to T4, and are useful against light vehicles. Yes, elites slots aren't, in theory, just about firepower, but when they are so badly outclassed by troops choices AND offer nothing else...

Also, you may have forgot rending, but did you include FRF or BiD on the lasguns?

**loota boy**

Well, I'm quite glad I was proved wrong here! I was feeling itwas such a shame for such cool units to be terrible. Just goes to show that you can't beleive everything you hear!