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Hi guys - a quick one that has probably been asked before but I cant find the thread.

Can an independant character join Snikrot's Kommandoes and gain the ability to come on from reserve on any table edge along with the unit? Seems a bit OP to me to sneak Gazzy in there, but is it legal?

Thanks

Yes it is 100% unutterably and unquestionably legal.

Ambush is an ability of the unit, and you are repeatedly told that the IC is a normal member of the unit (except for assaults...) , and therefore the IC CAN ambush. Note the unit DOES lose Infiltrate, however Ambush is not tied to having Infiltrate.

It is NOT over powered - you cannot split Ghazzy the turn you arrive (see BRB FAQ) , you have a 1/216 chance of him and the entire unit being destroyed (whole unit is S&P on 3 dice ,on a triple-1 he cannot move far enough onto the board) AND he cannot turn up until turn 2 at the earliest, by which time a BW/Trukk led ghazzy army WOULD be in combat with pretty much anything anyway, thanks to his 6" waaagh! move.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes it is 100% unutterably and unquestionably legal.

Hold on, I think that's going a bit far.

Ambush is a special rule and the rules for ICs say they don't gain special rules by joining units unless the rule specifies that they do.

So it all comes down to what level of specificity you believe a rule is required to say for a joined IC to benefit from it. There are basically two completely correct interpretations:

1) The rule has to actually specify that it works on joined ICs to do so.
2) If the rule specifies that it applies to the (in this case the character's) 'unit' then this is specific enough to apply to a joined IC.


Neither is 100% unquestionably legal, because the ambiguity of specificity exists. I think the latter is the method that most people play in most situations, especially since the first interpretation leads to some ludicrous situations like a Painboy being unable to give FNP to a Warboss joined to his mob.

So in shot, while I agree with you overall position, I totally disagree that it is a clear rule in the least.

@nos

Would please explain to the uninitiated (OK me) why Ghazzy can't split? I am just not understanding.

The FAQ says you cannot split, and doesnt really explain why. It's probably a balance thing - you're getting the IC+Unit on one roll, so they probably shouldnt be able to then act independently.

Thnaks for the quick reply. I did not realize it was FAQed.

me, just a bit further up wrote: you cannot split Ghazzy the turn you arrive (see BRB FAQ

On page 62 in the ork codex it says under Ambush that Snickrot and His Unit my be held in reserve. His Unit would count as anyone in his unit. Under IC it states that you can attach a IC before the games starts. There is nother else in the book that say otherwise. There is no rule saying anything about needing a rule to cover IC's when they get attacked to a unit. It says look at stubborn rule and under that its states it covers the Unit, the same as Ambush. I would say that 100% sure that this rule covers IC since they are apart of the Unit.

It may or may not be legal, regardless it smacks of power-gamery and loopholing, and I would never consider myself a proppa Ork player if i did it:

Warbosses don't sneak about like grots and hang around with sneaky gitz, they lead the charge with the toughest orks around them and get stuck in face to face.

It may be a legal loophole but it is uber lame and against the spirit of the game and the army imho.

yakface wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes it is 100% unutterably and unquestionably legal.

1) The rule has to actually specify that it works on joined ICs to do so.
2) If the rule specifies that it applies to the (in this case the character's) 'unit' then this is specific enough to apply to a joined IC.

I think you forgot why many of us think it is so cut-and-dry. The fact that a rule like Ambush is not conferred onto anyone in the unit. Attached IC's don't have to be 'mentioned' because nothing is being conferred to them. The same thing goes for See, But Remain Unseen. They are the subject of rule. The rulebook says that they may not have special rules conferred upon them unless it states otherwise - but they are not suddenly gaining "Ambush" or "See, But Remain Unseen". In fact, it has nothing to do with them being IC's at all. As far as the rule is concerned, they could be the next grot in line. Anyone in the unit benefits from the rule, but does not gain the rule. If it said, "all models in the unit gain 'Ambush'" then I'd agree with you. If it somehow conferred that rule onto the IC, then it would be a different matter, but it doesn't.

I suppose it ties in with your second option, but I thought I'd break it down a bit more specifically as to why some of us think that 'unit' is specific enough to apply to a joined IC.

CT GAMER wrote:It may or may not be legal, regardless it smacks of power-gamery and loopholing, and I would never consider myself a proppa Ork player if i did it:

Warbosses don't sneak about like grots and hang around with sneaky gitz, they lead the charge with the toughest orks around them and get stuck in face to face.

It may be a legal loophole but it is uber lame and against the spirit of the game and the army imho.

They dop if there BloodAxes... sneeky gits

CT GAMER wrote:It may or may not be legal, regardless it smacks of power-gamery and loopholing, and I would never consider myself a proppa Ork player if i did it:

Warbosses don't sneak about like grots and hang around with sneaky gitz, they lead the charge with the toughest orks around them and get stuck in face to face.

It may be a legal loophole but it is uber lame and against the spirit of the game and the army imho.

It does not matter how you choose to play your army. I dont get where you think that any IC would not jump on this. It will allow you to get into combat faster and take on what you are trying to kill faster. How i see it, it you might be to scared to attack the opponents best Unit. I know that sound stupid but it is the same thing you said but backwards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:

yakface wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes it is 100% unutterably and unquestionably legal.

1) The rule has to actually specify that it works on joined ICs to do so.
2) If the rule specifies that it applies to the (in this case the character's) 'unit' then this is specific enough to apply to a joined IC.

I think you forgot why many of us think it is so cut-and-dry. The fact that a rule like Ambush is not conferred onto anyone in the unit. Attached IC's don't have to be 'mentioned' because nothing is being conferred to them. The same thing goes for See, But Remain Unseen. They are the subject of rule. The rulebook says that they may not have special rules conferred upon them unless it states otherwise - but they are not suddenly gaining "Ambush" or "See, But Remain Unseen". In fact, it has nothing to do with them being IC's at all. As far as the rule is concerned, they could be the next grot in line. Anyone in the unit benefits from the rule, but does not gain the rule. If it said, "all models in the unit gain 'Ambush'" then I'd agree with you. If it somehow conferred that rule onto the IC, then it would be a different matter, but it doesn't.

I suppose it ties in with your second option, but I thought I'd break it down a bit more specifically as to why some of us think that 'unit' is specific enough to apply to a joined IC.

If you go to page 3 in the Rules book you will see why we call them Units. read and it make since why a IC attached to a Group would be called a " Unit "

Formosa wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:It may or may not be legal, regardless it smacks of power-gamery and loopholing, and I would never consider myself a proppa Ork player if i did it:

Warbosses don't sneak about like grots and hang around with sneaky gitz, they lead the charge with the toughest orks around them and get stuck in face to face.

It may be a legal loophole but it is uber lame and against the spirit of the game and the army imho.

They dop if there BloodAxes... sneeky gits

Last time I checked Ghazzy isn't a blood axe...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jordan23ryan wrote:

It does not matter how you choose to play your army. I dont get where you think that any IC would not jump on this. It will allow you to get into combat faster and take on what you are trying to kill faster. How i see it, it you might be to scared to attack the opponents best Unit. I know that sound stupid but it is the same thing you said but backwards.

I understand that you have rationalized it for your own convenience. That doesn't change my assessment or opinion of it...

Opinions on whether something is cheesy don't help the discussion in any way. They can only create acrimony.

jordan23ryan wrote:

If you go to page 3 in the Rules book you will see why we call them Units. read and it make since why a IC attached to a Group would be called a " Unit "

. . .what?

That page has very little to do with the mechanic that would define an IC as a part of another unit. You're looking for page 48.

It's one of those great GW moments where a 4th edition codex had an ability that was pretty clear, then 5th edition came along and had the caveat for IC's and 'special rules'. Snikrot's 'Ambush' ability didn't have the 5th edition wording 'Special Rule' which has caused a very vague area of the rules.

Being held in Reserve and having a unit be able to show up on any table edge appears very clear that it is a 'special rule'. Too bad GW can't be bothered with clarity.

Thus is why you have some of us who are using the least advantageous interpretation of a gray area in the rules: IC's don't gain the 'special rule-Ambush' Snikrot grants to his unit.

The ork codex was released in 4th ed yes, but it was written entirely with fifth ed in mind.

Also, NOONE is saing the ic gains the special rule, not even snikrots kommandos gain the ambush rule. The IC doesnt have to, he just benefits from it as he is part of the unit.

kill dem stunties wrote:The ork codex was released in 4th ed yes, but it was written entirely with fifth ed in mind.

Which is why Ghaz has grenades and Furious Charge...

It was written to be more or less compatible with 5th edition. It was designed primarily for 4th edition, though.

CT GAMER wrote:It may or may not be legal, regardless it smacks of power-gamery and loopholing, and I would never consider myself a proppa Ork player if i did it:

Warbosses don't sneak about like grots and hang around with sneaky gitz, they lead the charge with the toughest orks around them and get stuck in face to face.

It may be a legal loophole but it is uber lame and against the spirit of the game and the army imho.

Right, because adding a random IC to a unit coming in from reserves for tactical purposes is completely and whole heartedly a legal loophole. What would you say about some of the nonsense in the newer codexes then?

I'll admit adding ghaz to the unit is pushing it, but in the end all it's doing is either forcing your opponent to watch their flanks or bottle up in the middle for your ork horde.

And yes, the trick works. It wouldn't if it said outflank, but since it's just reliant on being in reserve, it works.

juraigamer wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:It may or may not be legal, regardless it smacks of power-gamery and loopholing, and I would never consider myself a proppa Ork player if i did it:

Warbosses don't sneak about like grots and hang around with sneaky gitz, they lead the charge with the toughest orks around them and get stuck in face to face.

It may be a legal loophole but it is uber lame and against the spirit of the game and the army imho.

Right, because adding a random IC to a unit coming in from reserves for tactical purposes is completely and whole heartedly a legal loophole. What would you say about some of the nonsense in the newer codexes then?

Nonsense is nonsense, old or new.

If this is so cut and dry why the need for the discusion then?

notice that a mod stepped in, yet you chose to continue to directly address me ayways after the fact, and so I reply to you.

I would suggest going to PM if you want to doscuss this further, though I think we are better off agreeing to disagree...

As most others have stated, yes you can add a IC to Snikrot's units and still ambush.

Slightly off-topic but related - why Ghazzy? Yes, he's awesome but there is another IC that is a much better match - the Mad Dok. Take a full unit of kommandos with cyborks and the dok - no you have 5++ saves with FNP and fearless. The Dok's rule(rage) can be countered by using Snikrot's ability to come in on any board edge. It will put a serious frown on gunline army to have these madmen show up from behind.