Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, so here it comes.

I am still new to 40k, as in, a few months in. I have made a 2k point Ork Kan Wall list that I like..... but.... well, painting it will suck and while I like the idea of orks, I miss the tactics. Green Tide, anyone?

I am looking to keep my orks as a fun army to play but want a very competitive second army that doesn't have 150+ models to paint as well as has some badass lore and tactics involved in the play.

I keep hearing that space wolves, IG, and BA are the way to go.... If you want to flame me for being just another ultra-competitive player looking to play an ezwin cookie-cutter list then please, before you post, do me a favor. I have a rule that states all people looking to flame me online must have a waterproof computer. That being said, I require VIDEO proof. Now, go fill up your bathtub, grab a video-recording device of your choice, and test your PC to see if you're allowed to flame me. Post video either way.

I would like a run down on BA. My two friends I game with most often play SW and CSM, and both are building IG armies in DIRECT response to my orks. I would like to play BA, the third choice.

I hear alot about DoA lists. The idea of massive deep striking jump infantry that re-roll deep strike rolls and are armed to the teeth with anti-mech and have a bunch of other cool tricks (that I have no clue about, my minimal research told me that first part and not much else) appeals to me. What a badass way to enter the battlefield.

Then I hear about razorback spam. I like vehicles, and would be open to the idea of fielding a massive number or tanks to do whatever this list is about.

Anyone have the free time to explain to me how either of these lists work, their pro's/con's, and how good they are against this army or that army?

Many thanks to those who choose to enlighten a new 40k player. May the powers that be smite down the rest of you!

Well, I play a DoA army. Indeed its fun to play and it can be competitive. Razorback spam is boring so that I'll stay away from it.

In a DoA army, you need a core of Assault Marines (10 Marines w/ two meltas, powerfist) supported by Vanguard Vets (5 Marines w/ powerfist) who can eventually charge upon arrival (thanks to DoA and heroic intervention).
As HQ I suggest a Librarian for psychic protection and providing a cover save (via shield) leading a Honour Guard (2 meltas, 2 flamers) which comes with a free chalice.
By the way, throw in some Sanguinary Priests for increased survivability.

This kind of army offers a lot of tactical flexibility: deep strike, rolling up a flank, taking on the weakest enemy spot, moving through the center to herd the enemy into one corner.

Everyone has a different list, I used Dante and the Sanguinor, both of these HQ has great abliltes to nerd your opponent HQ and give a bouns to one your Serg. Dante has the abilty to DS without scattering, so this can be a problem for any army that has a mech heavy list. The priest can grant FnP and furious charge within 6' of it. Vangant unit can DS and assult the turn that they arrived. this could cause problems if the Sanguinor is close by and a priest. thats five attack per guy and furious charge with PW. Another thing about the DoA, if you the opponent deploys wrong, a DoA list could cause you to bottle neck . In killpoint DoA list could only have 10 total in a 2000 point gaime, which in turn make you have to play ketchup. I hope that help

Here is a good blog with lots of DoA tactics:

greenblowfly.blogspot.com

I have learned lots of good tactics there and it has some list building tips as well.

The Sanguinor
Dante

Chaplain: jump pack, infernus pistol
Chaplain: jump pack, infernus pistol

Sanguinary Priest: jump pack, power sword, infernus pistol
Sanguinary Priest: jump pack, power sword

Sanguinary Guard: 2x infernus pistol, power fist, Chapter Banner
Assault squad #1: melta/flamer, thunder hammer/stormshield
Assault squad #2: melta/flamer, thunder hammer/stormshield

5x Vanguard veterans: power fist/stormshield, 2x power sword, thunderhammer

Too less bodies for my liking.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Here is a good blog with lots of DoA tactics:

greenblowfly.blogspot.com

I have learned lots of good tactics there and it has some list building tips as well.

Greenblowfly and I are going to have a match this weekend, DoA vs DoA , just for fun.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Here is a good blog with lots of DoA tactics:

greenblowfly.blogspot.com

I have learned lots of good tactics there and it has some list building tips as well.

Greenblowfly and I are going to have a match this weekend, DoA vs DoA , just for fun.

Going second and staying in reserve is the way to go.

That is a very powerful list. I like it.

Sunshine I think you'll have your hands full. gbf is a DoA mastermind.

Oh, stewpid EZWIN Loyalist Khornate! Why don't you get some more cookie-cutr lists, lewzer! BTW, I can say this because I'm typing as I lower my laptop into the tub OH GOD THE ZAPPY PAIN MAKE IT STOP

Joking aside. I'm a Guardsmen (and a rabid one at that). Do you have any idea of what sort of stuff the other Guardsmen have? Or styles they like to run? The thought of a deep-striking bunch of Loyalist Khornates fills me with a whole bunch of fear. Especially if they can zot my tanks and arty with meltas.

Can anyone give me some pointers on paperback spam? A sample army last with them, anesthetist some general tactica?

Does anyone take meph with ba?

Hytep wrote:Can anyone give me some pointers on paperback spam? A sample army last with them, anesthetist some general tactica?

Does anyone take meph with ba?

I was under the impression that Meph was very commonly used, I have him and the sanguinor, though honestly I'm starting to think that more troops might be a better way to roll.

the general principal with Razorbnack spamm is this.


many squads of 5 man Assault marines(or tac squads ) with Razorback transports. with the Assault Marines you get a 35 point discount on the razorback(or any other transport) for dropping your Jump Packs.

this is generally supported by Baal Predators in Fast Attack and either Predators or Vindicators in Heavy Support.

Elites are usually at least 1 slot of Sang Priests(3 for 1 slot) and they hitch a ride with an assault squad. then you could do some Terminators, Sternguard, or Furioso Libbys(with Wings to keep up with the tanks) to taste.


the Razorbacks and Predators/Vindicators form a wall of vehicles and advance at breakneck speed into the enemy. main issue is that units may not assault the turn they disembark so a equally fast opponent can avoid you(Mech Eldar)

the Baal Predators can either infiltrate or Outflank or line up with everyone else.



i'll get a mock list up momentarily


Automatically Appended Next Post:

here we go

HQ
Reclusiarch 130 pts

Troops
5 man Assault Squad(Meltagun, Power Fist, Hand Flamer, No Jump Packs) Razorback (TL-assault cannon) 200 pts
5 man Assault Squad(Meltagun, Power Fist, Hand Flamer, No Jump Packs) Razorback (TL-assault cannon) 200 pts
5 man Assault Squad(Meltagun, Power Fist, Hand Flamer, No Jump Packs) Razorback (TL-assault cannon) 200 pts

5 man Assault Squad(Meltagun, Power Fist, No Jump Packs) Razorback (TL-lascannon) 190 pts
5 man Assault Squad(Meltagun, Power Fist, No Jump Packs) Razorback (TL-lascannon) 190 pts
5 man Assault Squad(Meltagun, Power Fist, No Jump Packs) Razorback (TL-lascannon) 190 pts

Elites
3 Sanguinary Priests (3 Power weapons) 195 pts

total= 1495 pts

lots of firepower for 1500 points.

anti-infantry from the Assault Cannons and Handflamers and assaulting marines.

FnP for everyone with proper distribution of Priests.

plenty of Anti-tank from the 3 lascannons and all those Melta guns.

Razorspam has lost lots of it's popularity.

Well, the OP asked for a list and a breakdown of it's style.

I play DoA myself.

As do I, DoA's easier on the wallet.

I dont play razor SPAM, but I run tac BA's. Its harder. But more rewarding.

Black Fiend wrote:That is a very powerful list. I like it.

Sunshine I think you'll have your hands full. gbf is a DoA mastermind.

gbf and I have about the same list, it going to be who goes second.

Ok, so I am sold on the DoA list. The idea of deep striking your ENTIRE army makes me happy inside.

That being said, how does it work? I see a lot of units in DoA lists that dont have the option to deep strike in the list. I do, however, see the option to add a jump pack.... Do all units equipped with a jump pack have the ability to deep strike?

Is there any room for Meph in a DoA list?

What are peoples thoughts on the stormraven in DoA lists? Is there a good way to incorporate Meph and the Storm Raven together for any sort of tactical benefit?

I'll ask more as I think of it. Thank you all again who choose to shed some light on this stuff for me!!!!

EmilCrane wrote:

Hytep wrote:Can anyone give me some pointers on paperback spam? A sample army last with them, anesthetist some general tactica?

Does anyone take meph with ba?

I was under the impression that Meph was very commonly used, I have him and the sanguinor, though honestly I'm starting to think that more troops might be a better way to roll.

Mephiston is best used in a tank-heavy BA army. He could approach behind the wall of tanks until he's close enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A DoA army needs some Vanguard squads since these units can eventually charge upon arrival.
In this way, they can eventually silence guns.

Rzorspam is the most effective build in the BA book. It just depend son if you wan to play it or not. I know DoA is popular right now and I can see why, but in my personal experience, the army is totally underwhelming. Nearly every time I have played it I have crushed it badly with a wide variety of armies. I have only had one game where it was even remotely close. The main problem with a DoA army is that you are trying to win an assault war with MEQ stats. Anything that swings before you and can ignore armor will wipe the floor with you if properly played.

Razorspam is highly effective against a wide variety of opponents.

It goes like this:

Libby
4 x 5 man assault squad in Ass Cannon Back or Las/Plas back
3 x BAAL
3 x A.Cannon/L.Cannon Pred
Furisos libby dread with wings

That gives you a top tier tournament army that is mobile, shoots like hell, can score and has just enough assault power to keep you out of trouble.

It is a hard core tournament army though, and not something I would play in pick up games (unless your opponent knew what to expect). It is highly effective though and had a proven track record as a winning tournament list.

This word "eventually". I do not think it means what you think it means...

Reecius wrote:Rzorspam is the most effective build in the BA book. It just depend son if you wan to play it or not. I know DoA is popular right now and I can see why, but in my personal experience, the army is totally underwhelming. Nearly every time I have played it I have crushed it badly with a wide variety of armies. I have only had one game where it was even remotely close. The main problem with a DoA army is that you are trying to win an assault war with MEQ stats. Anything that swings before you and can ignore armor will wipe the floor with you if properly played.

Razorspam is highly effective against a wide variety of opponents.

It goes like this:

Libby
4 x 5 man assault squad in Ass Cannon Back or Las/Plas back
3 x BAAL
3 x A.Cannon/L.Cannon Pred
Furisos libby dread with wings

That gives you a top tier tournament army that is mobile, shoots like hell, can score and has just enough assault power to keep you out of trouble.

It is a hard core tournament army though, and not something I would play in pick up games (unless your opponent knew what to expect). It is highly effective though and had a proven track record as a winning tournament list.

Does anyone with a good doa list have any rebuttal to this? Talk about a way to kill my rush!

Libby
4 x 5 man assault squad in Ass Cannon Back or Las/Plas back
3 x BAAL
3 x A.Cannon/L.Cannon Pred
Furisos libby dread with wings

That's a decent list. However, I'd consider Mephiston here.

My experience has been the exact opposite of yours Reecius... I've massacred every razorspam list I've played and it's always been predictable. Razorspam can't generate enough shooting to drop enough jump infantry. Once the razors are popped it's over as the five man assault squads aren't a threat in close combat. I'm not saying razorspam isn't good, I just think DoA is a lot better and it can beat down other assault armies - highly mobile plus FC... there are few other armies that will strike first in close combat beside dark eldar. Generally DoA is going to charge not be charged.

Hytep here is a solid DoA list...

The Sanguinor
Epistolary (jump pack) - Sanguine Sword & Unleash Rage
Honor Guard (jump packs, Banner) - 2x lightning claw & stormshield, pair of lightning claws, thunderhammer & stormshield

Sanguinary Priest (jump pack) - power sword & infernus pistol

5x Vanguard veterans (jump pack) - power fist & stormshield, 2x power sword, thunderhammer

Assault squad - 2x meltagun, thunderhammer/stormshield
Assault squad - 2x meltagun, thunderhammer/stormshield

Stormraven - extra armor, twin linked assault cannon, twin linked multi-melta

Furioso - extra armor, heavy flamer, Blood Talons

Epistolary, Honor Guard and Furioso start the game embarked in the Stormraven. Keep the Sanguinor close by them - +2A for everyone and all attacks reroll missed hits plus Furious Charge to boot. Epistolary is swinging at S10. Vanguard vets can assault straight out of the deepstrike.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:My experience has been the exact opposite of yours Reecius... I've massacred every razorspam list I've played and it's always been predictable. Razorspam can't generate enough shooting to drop enough jump infantry. Once the razors are popped it's over as the five man assault squads aren't a threat in close combat. I'm not saying razorspam isn't good, I just think DoA is a lot better and it can beat down other assault armies - highly mobile plus FC... there are few other armies that will strike first in close combat beside dark eldar. Generally DoA is going to charge not be charged.

Hytep here is a solid DoA list...

The Sanguinor
Epistolary (jump pack) - Sanguine Sword & Unleash Rage
Honor Guard (jump packs, Banner) - 2x lightning claw & stormshield, pair of lightning claws, thunderhammer & stormshield

Sanguinary Priest (jump pack) - power sword & infernus pistol

5x Vanguard veterans (jump pack) - power fist & stormshield, 2x power sword, thunderhammer

Assault squad - 2x meltagun, thunderhammer/stormshield
Assault squad - 2x meltagun, thunderhammer/stormshield

Stormraven - extra armor, twin linked assault cannon, twin linked multi-melta

Furioso - extra armor, heavy flamer, Blood Talons

Epistolary, Honor Guard and Furioso start the game embarked in the Stormraven. Keep the Sanguinor close by them - +2A for everyone and all attacks reroll missed hits plus Furious Charge to boot. Epistolary is swinging at S10. Vanguard vets can assault straight out of the deepstrike.

Thank you!

Does the stormraven start on the board? In reserve? Is this a list that starts everything off the board, a full deep strike list? (I like those. get second turn and waste your opponents entire first two turns)

How are stormshields best utilized, being as how there is only one in the squad?

I'd start the Stormraven in reserve.

I play a tank heavy BA list and use Mephiston often. I understand the benefits of DoA but do not use it myself.

Either is a great way to go or you can accumulate some of both and run one the other or a hybrid list.

Just to add, I always start my stormraven in reserve. Only way to make sure it does not explode on you opponents first turn.

if you take a Stormraven you do one of 2 things with it.


if you get 1st turn, start on board and move up.


if you go 2nd, you reserve it so that it can turbo-boost when it does come on and safely deliver it's cargo.

I hear alot about DoA lists. The idea of massive deep striking jump infantry that re-roll deep strike rolls and are armed to the teeth with anti-mech and have a bunch of other cool tricks (that I have no clue about, my minimal research told me that first part and not much else) appeals to me. What a badass way to enter the battlefield.

Then I hear about razorback spam. I like vehicles, and would be open to the idea of fielding a massive number or tanks to do whatever this list is about.

With some careful planning you can collect a DoA army and slowly work your way to a razorspam list. Regardless of list you are gonna need some assault marines and a libby. Key is magnetize your jump packs. If DoA doesn't appeal to you once you collect it you can always buy some tanks later. The death company kit really helps here since it has both backpack and jump packs in it.

Its what I am doing anyhow.

I'm a bit late to this party, but I'd like to jump in. I am a new BA player who is trying to become a good tournament player as soon as possible.

Just for reference, here is my current 1000 point list:

HQ: Librarian w/ Shield and Unleash Rage 100
EL: 1 Sanguinary Priest w/ Meltabombs 55
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist, Las/Plas Razorback 190
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Meltagun, Powerfist, Las/Plas Razorback 190
TR: 5 Assault Marines, Flamer, Meltabombs, Las/Plas Razorback 165
HS: Predator w/ HB Sponsons 100
HS: Predator w/ HB Sponsons 100
HS: Predator w/ HB Sponsons 100

When I eventually go up to 1500 points, I will add 3 Baal Predators, drop the meltabombs from the Priest and add a second flamer assault squad w/o meltabombs.

The number one thing I would encourage you to do is to base your list around Assault Marines and magnetize them so you have the option of using jump packs or regular backpacks. It's pretty easy. That way, if will eventually be able to play both Mech and JP based armies using many of the same models.

While it is possible to use Tactical marines, the math is punishingly against them in a BA army. You end up paying more points in order to exchange chainswords for bolters and a second special weapon for a heavy weapon. These are trades you probably wouldn't want to do for free. Scouts may have a use in some lists, but Assault Marines have a use in all lists that aren't handicapping themselves on purpose.

Second, I would advise you to fully commit to either a Jump Infantry/DoA strategy, or a Mech strategy. That means that a DoA list should not have any vehicles whatsoever. That especially means a DoA list should not have a Stormraven. One of the main benefits of the DoA army is that most lists have a lot of anti-armor weapons in them, and these weapons are much less effective against infantry. By avoiding vehicles, you essentially force your opponent to play an under-points army. You should also experiment with deploying your full army even with a DoA list and simply move up behind cover. Fellow Dakkaite mercer has written some battle reports that address this subject.

I will also agree with Reecius; I think Razorspam lists are probably the most effective in general, provided they are also Predatorspam lists. I would however suggest taking a Sanguinary Priest or two, however. It is true that 5 man Assault Squads will not do well against most dedicated CC stuff. They will still be plenty effective against many common units on the battlefield, and the Priest will both make them hit harder and keep them alive. Since you will be taking a Librarian HQ (either Mephiston or a regular libby), you will also be able to enhance some of them with Unleash Rage.

Lastly, I would suggest you take minimal wargear, no matter what direction you go in. I see a lot of lists that fritter away points on upgrades that aren't doing enough. This is especially tempting to people who run a Death Company or Vanguard Vets. More models is usually better.