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Is it viable to make a completely Tzeentch DoC army? I have trouble thinking of a less capable close combat army, but it must be devastating in the magic phase.

I think the problem you would encounter would be too much competition for power dice. All your heralds, lord of change, and units would be fighting over the same pile. It could be incredibly fun to model, though...

Yeah it's got an undeniable amount of style. You'd play that army and feel super classy. I'm just interested in how you would turn that into something that will win (or at least put up a fight). Not WAAC, but IRNLTMIIDTGWT (I'd Rather Not Lose Too Much If I Decide To Go With This)

Maybe if you set your LoCs towards as much combat orientated as possible. Used two HoTs as your true casters. Have your one or 2 40 man horror units for pure anvil. If points allow another couple of HoTs with power vortex and any defensive abilities. Then a cubic crapton of flamers. MAYBE.

:O

Good (dark) God. Do you play like 4,000 point games?

Doesn't everyone?

Still the point remains the same
- LoC set for combat not as caster
- HoT(s) as true caster(s)with MoS preferrably with wings
- anvil horror unit(s) protected by HoT(s) with power vortex(s)
- flamers to kill stuff
- screamers if you like them for warmachines

Still not sure how well its gonna work but at least the magic phase should be fun.

Sorry, I expect to play 2000ish point games, so an LoC isn't really possible...

Well without a Loc your going to be hurting for close combat punch. loLight on your horror unit might help elevate some of that problem. The bad news is at 2000 points lots of your opponents will have a metric button of dispell dice backed by a level 4. LoShadow might help as well and the nuke spells from LoDeath still its even more of an uphill battle now.

The stubborn banner is gonna be a must as you wont be winning combats with horrors but at least they wont dissolve from underneath your enemy if theyre stubborn.

...Is it common for people to play 3-4 thousand point games? Really?

And what the heck is a metric button? I grew up in the states, so I guess I use imperial buttons.

Also, I'm pretty sure the casters would be restricted to the Tzeentch lore, outside of specific gifts of chaos, which don't guarantee you'd know the nuke spells.

At any rate, I'd much rather invest in a Daemon Prince than a Lord of Change.

Also, I'm pretty sure the casters would be restricted to the Tzeentch lore, outside of specific gifts of chaos, which don't guarantee you'd know the nuke spells.

Master of Sorcery gives our HoTs and LoC access to a chosen BRB lore and we get all the spells without rolling for them.

From personal experience and from common net wisdom a DP in fantasy is very overpriced and typically only when chosen when giving YOURSELF a handicap.

As for big games Daemonreign over at Daemonic Legion got me interested in them and I haven't played a game below 2500 for a good while now.

Under 7th edition rules I made the Kairos flying circus army.

I even won a tournament with it.

But now because of the limitation on the number of dice you can have it is less powerful.

You can still be succesful and using lore of death will be the best as it can regenerate casting dice.

Maximizing your heroes BSB and Flamers will be unpopular but effective.

And having hugh blocks of horrors is less useful then medium sized blocks because you really will not need them to cast their big spells if your heroes and lord are doing their job in the magic department.

I find a mix of deamon lores to be a more effective army overall though.

And I have over 2500points in each lore. Last count I had 12000 in Fantasy Deamons. So I can switch up which style I play every game (except in a tournament setting)

I guess what my question really is, is how do Tzeentch units compensate for poor close combat ability, or are Horrors enough?

Squash wrote:I guess what my question really is, is how do Tzeentch units compensate for poor close combat ability, or are Horrors enough?

Flamers got even better in 8th, so maxing out on those and burning everything to the ground is one way. I've seen a horde of horrors (50 run 5-wide usually) with BSB (-2LD banner) and herald (Master of Death, for Doom & Darkness) do atrocious things at tournaments ... and after those 3 units, it doesn't matter too much! Even @ 2000 I'd wedge in a cheap LoC (couldn't you get one with robes under 501 points?), or see about getting some tizz chariot heralds going to help invinco-horror blocks kill things.

I'd think something like:
- LoC w/ robes
- Herald w/ master of death/life/beasts/light, dispel or power dice gifts
- Herald BSB w/ -2LD banner, other gifts (master of death/life/beasts/light)
- Horror Bus (5-wide, 6+ deep)
- Horror Bus (5-wide, 6+ deep)
- 2x 6 Flamers

Books at home but I'm sure all that stuff works out to be QUITE expensive so easily 2k. Getting some buffs on the big horror units (say run horde-style even) could do neat things, but really they'd be holding while magic takes its toll, big bird flips things over and flamers ash everything else.

As an aside, boy am I glad that the Pure Tizz list isn't the molten cheddar it was in 7th edition, back when you could have 24 power dice or something up against 2 dispel dice

- Salvage

It just seems like the best armies are theme armies, and the only real theme you can do with DoC is picking one God. Khorne would leave me without a shooting or magic phase, and I wouldn't want to explain to my other half why I'm painting endless boobies or pustules. Tzeentch makes sense.

Squash wrote:endless boobies

A man can dream ...

Anyway, I found my book and slapped some points around. Here's a thought from me:

L: Lord of Change - master of death, daemonic robes = 500

H: Herald of Tizz - BSB, great icon of despair = 215
H: Herald of Tizz - master of life, spell breaker = 165

C: 30 Horrors - full command = 390
C: 29 Horrors - full command = 378

R: 5 Flamers = 175
R: 5 Flamers = 175
-------
1998

Big bird's got P-Sun and D&D (and the hex) for when he needs them, caster herald augments his 4+ ward boys to high hell and lifeblooms the LoC (also, Dwellers), BSB herald waves his eevil banner around and breaks people off of horrorific static CR. There aren't maximum flamers so your rares aren't maximum abuse, but I think it would work out fine ... I certainly think the list would work, even if it's winning with those things (the most infamous of auto-kill magic, stacking LD hits, massed flamers and points denial core) that tend to leave bad tastes in people's mouths in 8th. Buuuuuuuut Tzeentch cares not from whence the victories come?

- Salvage

That's a lot like what I was looking at. I'd rather have larger Horror blocks though, and swap out some of those flamers for manta-rays of doom.

Screamers are lovely little warp sharks, aren't they? Pity their stats are so gimp in game (only combat stat above 3 is Initiative? ), but I dig them too. Digging into the flamers (2x 4 is still strong and avoids going with 1 unit that can be taken out or tied up) works, as does dropping the hefty LD banner and even the spell breaker. I would keep 2 masters of sorcery across the bird and heralds, and the robes seem like a good idea on the easiest chunk of points in the army, for artillery cuddles.

- Salvage

Gift of chaos bombing works.
2-3 heralds with power vortex, 3 units of ~30 horrors.
You get a brutal flickering fire, and once in combat, you'll have at least 4 shots at the 12" range, every enemy takes D6 Strength S6 hits. It adds up surprisingly fast.

Add in a few standards of change for more 1 die dropping fun.

-Matt

For what it's worth, I expect to go up against WoC and HEs over everything else.

Well against HEs and WoCs screamers will not be a power gamers first choice. They will not do much vs a hellcannon and while HEs field warmachines they are not high up on the priority scale.

Against HEs LoDeath might be called for to get rid of their annoying Book of Hoeth mini-Teclis who will own in the magic phase.

WoCs are a hard counter vs tzeentch with their access to either horded maradaurs or 3+ MoT Chosen.

I figured the screamers would be useful against HE with their automatic hits, maybe that was wrong. I really like the models, I'd like to fit them in somehow.

Screamers vs high elves depends on the high elf shooting. T3 5+ ward doesn't hold up to bow fire at all. If he went without the shooting, they are golden for the S5 slashing.

The 3D6 S3 hits standard does help out a lot against marauders; you'd be looking at about 5 kills each time the spell goes off.

At 1500, no teclis.

-Matt

I wonder...Screamers don't panic. They're fragile to shooting. But you could sink up to 50% of your points in them. Three units of 11. If you take enough guys, they've got to perform. ...right?
I'd call the list "Feeding Frenzy" or something like that.

Huh. That's interesting warp. You'd get a ton of kills out of their movement, and they'd definately be able to do some clever flanking. They might work really well with a nurgle anvil.

I actually remember a guy I think on TWF ran max screamers in 7th! I'm not even sure where to start digging to find it, but it was an awesome looking army that did ok for itself (though 7th was a different monster with all those MSU, skirmisher and monster builds everywhere). I think your issue in game might be where to fit in 33 40mm bases with 0.5" between them, particularly if / when your opponent is wise to what you're doing.

And I have to say it again: screamers have some gak stats, compared to any of the other demons. At least in the Hordes book they had 2 wounds!

- Salvage