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A local player has several beautifully converted, painted, and scratch-built Ork vehicles. My problem is several players have complained about how big they are (some of his trukks are larger than most battlewagons, and his battlewagons hang off the back of the table by a half inch or so when he moves on 13" from reserves). Some people are even talking about quitting our tournament scene.
Here are concerns raised by other players:

KFF in a giant battlewagon: larger table area covered, and neutralizes the fact that it can't be screened by other vehicles
Camping on objectives: impossible to get to within 3" unless you crack the vehicle
Deffrollas: wider threat range can gain you a little when turning

But it begs the question: are there official rules about converted/scratchbuilt vehicle sizes?

Thanks, and I'll post my personal thoughts in few days.

Scratchbuilt = great, but when it's as big as you say, then it starts to border on (even if accidental) cheating. There's a reason the GW trukks and stuff are the size they are!

It sounds like these are just too big.

macgowan wrote:A local player has several beautifully converted, painted, and scratch-built Ork vehicles. My problem is several players have complained about how big they are (some of his trukks are larger than most battlewagons, and his battlewagons hang off the back of the table by a half inch or so when he moves on 13" from reserves).

His BW is destroyed if it hangs off the table, and everyone inside. GW FAQed it. If he doesn't like it, he can use regular-sized BWs.

Some people are even talking about quitting our tournament scene.

TO has the right to disqualify any and all models for any reason. if it bothers you, make a legitimate complaint to the TO

But it begs the question: are there official rules about converted/scratchbuilt vehicle sizes?

Technically you can only play the game with unconverted stock Citadel models. Anything else requires opponents permission. practically everything int he game requires opponents permission so it being 'legal' is a non-issue. He can show up with anything he wants and you have to decide if you will choose to play him or not.

The only difference at a tourney, is the TO decides for you

That being said... Some ork players need to get a clue. They know what they are doing and at some point you need to grow up. Our 3rd edition models may need to find new roles. I had giant BWs too at one point (because that was how it was in 3rd) but at some point it simply isn't fair and too game impacting for me to not change with the times.

Ork players need to consider:
*If your model no longer fits the current rules, consider finding new rules for it. Gorkamorka trukks? Now it is a buggie. Your Trukks too big? maybe they are now BWs. your battlewagon massive? it may need to become an Apoc battlefortress.
*Also consider converting your models to be bigger/smaller. Gorkamorka trukks? grow it with plasticard and build it some shocks to raise it up. BW too big? maybe consider scrapping it and using the parts for two smaller vehicles.
*Or if you love the model, consider retiring it.

Sure if you have obscenely oversided/undersized models you can scream about 'gamers rights' and force your models on other people but being a social game, at some point you have to see other people have legitimate concerns playing against your unstandard models that are impacting the game. Considering You can get an ork trukk chassis or a complete rhino on ebay for 15$, just save some money and upgrade.

OK, I understand your opinions. Other than nkelsch (good point about off table=destroyed!), no one has given any reasons WHY it's a problem.

Please explain or cite examples of why having oversized models is naughty. Other than the KFF range being extended, I can only think of reasons why this would hurt the player with big vehicles.

nkelsch, your considerations for orks are a moot point because the new models are BIGGER than the old. There are other threads here about why old-school GorkaMorka trukks are beardy, but I haven't seen any discussion of why big vehicles are a problem. Which is why I started this thread.

My personal thoughts/solutions to the concerns I posted earlier:
KFF problem: This is a problem. I'd count the KFF range from where a regular-sized vehicle footprint would be (e.g. measure from inside the trukk bed, rather than edge of vehicle)

Objective Camping: Well, vehicles can't hold objectives so it's kind of a moot point. However, it's also just strategy, because other models in the game (Land Raider) make better campers and are a bigger problem to get rid of.

Deffrollas and turning: I'd say if the model can't pivot without hitting terrain, it can't make the pivot.

And if you're wondering, I AM the TO. And no one has ever complained to me during a tournament, but plenty of players have complained about losing after the fact.

I will talk to him about measuring more carefully and not setting up hanging off the edge, but unless I hear some good arguments WHY this shouldn't be happening, I'll allow the custom jobs.

Because they're cussing sexy.

*Larger vehicles can unfairly block LOS to things you may never have been able to before. It changes the Metagame when one BW or trukk can block LOS to half an army.

*When you destroy a large vehicle and the models have to 'disembark' or be placed int he crater, if the crater is a 12"x12" BW, they can often be placed to deny assault where they would not have been able to in a smaller BW.

*KFF can cover half the table.

*Deffrollas can deffroll way to many units or objects at once. If your tank is 10" wide, you can catch a lot of units in that swathe

*If your vehicle is 'long' you can exploit pivoting for extra distance. It is all gamelegal and fair with a Landraider which was designed by GW, but a custom vehicle that can control its length by being built is unfair.

Like you said, you are the TO... People have legitimate complains because in regular games, they would choose not to play against the models they deem as abusive. 40k requires RAW stock citadel models with no conversions... Why? because nothing in the rulebook says you are allowed to and rules are permissive. of course we have common sense, but common sense turns into crouching wraithlords and crawling carnifexes. "I can't define abusive modeling, but I know it when I see it" basically is how people feel. No rule will ever be able to qualify or disqualify all abusive models from simple oversided/undersized/custom models.

If you want to allow them because rule of cool, that is your right as a TO... and people have a right to be dissatisfied with the way you run your Tourney and not participate.

But as for the 13" models:
Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

So if his BW is too big to completely move onto the board, it is destroyed. And normally people would cut him slack, but his oversized models seem to be not going over well with people so I am not surprised if people cut him no slack. As a TO, at least you can do for them is enforce the rules.

macgowan wrote:Objective Camping: Well, vehicles can't hold objectives so it's kind of a moot point. However, it's also just strategy, because other models in the game (Land Raider) make better campers and are a bigger problem to get rid of.

Transports with embarked troops can hold objectives. I sometimes put a combat squad in a LR to hold my own objective.
A 13"+ BW could hold an objective from over a foot away which i'd say is quite advantageous.

objective camping is kinda mean but since im me id do it with 2 lr's and then jump up assault squads to keep em busy and lr's give lr support! (proberly cheating but o well! screw the opponent! get a bettr stratergy!) lol vannila marines are ftw and ownage.....

The internet is harsh so it is easy to say all oversized models should be smashed with a hammer, but "rule of cool" still applies...

So pictures of the models in question go a long way for people to judge between modeling for advantage and just a cool model.

Yes, I believe oversized vehicles are a problem.

What constitutes as "oversized" is another matter entirely.

I think scratchbuilds should broadly follow the sizes of the vehicles the represent. A bit of common sense in that regard goes a long way.

For Looted Wagons i'd say you can do pretty much whatever. There is no 'official' Looted Wagon size or configuration.

For battlewagons and trukks i'd advocate being within an inch of the normal footprint, more or less. Some of my battlewagons are larger than normal, but it's more of a hinderance than a help most times.

Trukks are a sticky point, since the dinky-trukks are still legal.

The only problem I see with a bigger BW ('cause face it, we are talking about ork vehicles here) is that is bigger than normal... I play with the old-fashion-Forge-World BW, 'cause they look way cooler than the new ones, it just makes no fragging sence that you can fit 20 boyz in that new thiny little thing you call BW! the new trukk is just slightly smaller!!

- Yes It does covers more area with a KFF but the area around the BW is still only 6" so you dont really get THAT MUCH EXTRA KKF AREA...
- The Deffrolla can be a problem, of course it can be, but the current deffrolla its already big enough to catch 2 units without a problem, so AGAIN I dont see the big issue here.
- Pivoting is something that doesnt even apply here since is a WHF term, in 40k vehicles dont pivot, they turn on its place "facing" its target before shoot/tank-shock/ram.
- Unless the size of the custom BW is obscene I say let the guy play, my FW BW is 10" long and 5.5" wide (6" with deffrolla) and never had a situation in which mi oponent was unhappy (yes, 13" is just stupid)
- Also, is NOT A GOOD IDEA to have an oversize BW because the only advantage its is 14 Front Armour Value, and if its that big it means that its rear and side armours are also big enough to be covered by trukks or any other thing. It becomes even more vulnerable.

Finally, we all like convertions. Its a vital part of this hobby and if you start banning a guy just because he likes to do something that is not even wrong by the rules then you will start banning people just because you dont want to play against the new DE cause their codex has too many advantages, or maybe not playing against the new BA cause Mephiston is a killing-machine.

I would say let him play... after all the time he must have taken to make his custom vehicles I honestly believe he deserves it as anyone esle.

Talk to him about the dimensions of the vehicles, see if he can work a little bit on this issue (cause again 13" is just to fragging long!!) and if people dont wanna play him just because they feel they are in disadvantage, simply ask them these simple question...

"How do you think all the codex felt when the last Space Marine Codex Arrived? and then the new Chaos Space Marine Codex?"
"How do you think the Tau players felt when all of a sudden every single miniature in the game had a 4+ cover save?"
"How do you think the DE players felt all these years without their new codex?"
"How do you think ork players felt when they saw the all-mighty-choppas gone for good while the new Space Marine Termies had 3+ inv save for free?"

40k is a game of strategy in which every player and army has its own advantage and weakness, it depends on you to exploit them and dont use the rules to excuse your lack of wargamming ability

And that is my modest opinion.

Cheers

There are no official rules on the size of vehicles.

Players can use any models they want to play 40K as long as their opponents agree.

Most non-GW vehicles of 1/48 or 1/35 scale will match the equivalent GW models in either length or width, and/or height, which makes it hard to say they are the wrong size for the game.

You'll have to use your judgement as to whether a scratchbuilt model is abusively long or wide.

I would be concerned if someone used scratchbuilt models substantially larger than the GW equivalent, particularly if they were obviously benefiting from it. For instance, by covering two objectives with one long tank.

MadGretchin - the "pivot trick" is where you exploit the difference in length vs width of some vehicles. If you start the game with your tank side on, when you turn it to move straight forward you will gain a number of inches - and the longer the vehicle compared to the width, the more you gain.

Given orks are primarily assault based, gaining 1 - 2 extra inches can make the difference between in charging and not,

Downside is that unless its a landraider you're exposing your side and/or rear armour on turn one to every big gun on the board. BW armour is 12, which is ok but not great. I think it's a slightly cheesy move, but a trade off on survivability, especially since BW are open topped as well.

Oddly enough it's usually LR spam (especially BA assault armies) that pull this one in my experience (armour 14 on the side makes it risk free), not ork players...

*edit for clarity*

nkelsch wrote:*Larger vehicles can unfairly block LOS to things you may never have been able to before. It changes the Metagame when one BW or trukk can block LOS to half an army.

*When you destroy a large vehicle and the models have to 'disembark' or be placed int he crater, if the crater is a 12"x12" BW, they can often be placed to deny assault where they would not have been able to in a smaller BW.

*KFF can cover half the table.

*Deffrollas can deffroll way to many units or objects at once. If your tank is 10" wide, you can catch a lot of units in that swathe

*If your vehicle is 'long' you can exploit pivoting for extra distance. It is all gamelegal and fair with a Landraider which was designed by GW, but a custom vehicle that can control its length by being built is unfair.

I agree with all of these, plus the point that a single > 12" long vehicle can actually park on top of 2 objectives at once.

nosferatu1001 wrote:MadGretchin - the "pivot trick" is where you exploit the difference in length vs width of some vehicles. If you start the game with your tank side on, when you turn it to move straight forward you will gain a number of inches - and the longer the vehicle compared to the width, the more you gain.

Given orks are primarily assault based, gaining 1 - 2 extra inches can make the difference between in charging and not,

Ok you got a point there... that IS fraggin chezzy...

Not really, if one finds oneself perpendicular to the direction one wishes to travel it's a natural result of following the rules.

One thing I feel should be kept in mind is that many ork players have been around since before the release of the battlewagon(in late 2008 I believe). There was a long stretch of time where there simply was no model available from GW nor any set dimensions for one. I have several scratch build battlewagons and although I love the look of the new ones, I'd rather not drop $200 to replace the three of them.

I understand the concern regarding modeling for advantage however, I feel you should grant some slack for those of us with battlewagons slightly larger than the GW model.


On a side note, what are the actual dimensions of the new battlewagon?

MannyMcCoconut wrote:I understand the concern regarding modeling for advantage however, I feel you should grant some slack for those of us with battlewagons slightly larger than the GW model.

There is "slightly larger," and then there's "over 14 inches long," which is what the OP describes.

How many players have had a problem with the stuff in question. If it's just 1 person then they are just looking for a reason to complain. If it's more than 2, you should probably talk to the Ork player. As a TO you need to make sure that as many players enjoy your events as possible.

I would love to see pics of the model in question

Even if it is just to see a cool model.

I have an ork Land Train under construction/playtesting. (looted Squat... the bugs may have eaten the squats, but they built stuff to last..

Effectively it is 3 battlewagons, set nose to tail, and driven as such. It's purely a fluff thing, and i treat each car as a seperate vehicle accordingly (although i'll halt the other cars if one gets immobilized or wrecked, often).

I was trying out the concept a while back at my old store with a friend that liked the idea and had one uninformed, uninvited tfg not bother to even ask if they are seperate vehicles, and to loudly rant over how OP/Broken it was to everyone else in the store, telling them that i was a cheating WAAC tfg etc etc. When he was shut up by the store owner (great guy) 'accidentally' bumping him while carrying a box of scenery back towards the table I was able to get a word in and explain that in all ways they were seperate vehicles, moving together for fluff reasons..

His answer:

'You must be the dumbest MF in the world. Why would you hide your good armour and gimp yourself. Fluff is a crock...'

Later that day i say him doing the rotate-walk with all his vehicles (and squeezing in an extra inch extra here and there on top) to express-deliver his Space Wolves..


I have no problem with converted models, even big ones, because hiding them is like trying to get cover for the Monolith from infantry and non-imperial ones are easier to kill from the side/rear.

Not sure on the MC oval bases. I've played vs Nids a few times, but they're usually blasting out of the ground at me, not rotate-charging

I have said his before: for gaming, creative modelling should take a back seat to the game itself.