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If a player reserves his army and his opponent manages to block his entire board edge...

is it possible to start at your own board edge and move around the opposing models and enter from the side of the board, assuming the model has enough movement?

And no, there is no need for the kroot vs whitescars picture.

problemastartes.jpeg

Simply put no they can not. If you cant come in from your board edge without going off into another edge to come into play then the unit is not coming in.

No, they must come on from there table edge, only way around this rule is Deep Skriking and Outflanking.

Only choice barring deep strike or outflanking is to tankshock some vehicles on the board, and try to blow a hole in the line.

According to the most recent FAQ, wouldn't the entering units be destroyed?

Son 0f Dorn wrote:According to the most recent FAQ, wouldn't the entering units be destroyed?

Correct. Per the rulebook FAQ, units that cannot make it fully onto the table on the turn they arrive from Reserves are destroyed, so if the edge they are supposed to arrive on is completely blocked then they would be destroyed unless they have the ability to ignore the models blocking the way.

Tanks can tank shock through (some) enemy models. Skimmers and Jump Infantry can move over enemy models. And of course Deep Striking and outflanking units can arrive anywhere on the table or from a flank edge respectively.

That's correct.

Note that the Deep Striking/Outflanking option is only available if you alrerady declared it when you put the unit into reserves.

By the time you come to move it on and find the path blocked, it's too late to change your mind.

Man, that would be a depressing way to be tabled.

yakface wrote:
Tanks can tank shock through (some) enemy models.

Wasn't there some debate about a tank-shocking vehicle having to stop as soon as he reached enemy models, allowing the enemy models to roll Ld or Death or Glory, thus destroying it since the FAQ says at any point during its move, or something to that effect?

puma713 wrote:

yakface wrote:
Tanks can tank shock through (some) enemy models.

Wasn't there some debate about a tank-shocking vehicle having to stop as soon as he reached enemy models, allowing the enemy models to roll Ld or Death or Glory, thus destroying it since the FAQ says at any point during its move, or something to that effect?

There may have been, but the DoG rules never state the vehicle is stopped to resolve the attack (only if the attack is successful, then the vehicle grinds to a halt), so the argument is completely baseless IMHO.

Just a hypothtical question.

You have blocked my table edge.
I tank shock you with my rhino.
You DoG the rhino, imobilizing it, leaving half the tank off the board.
The rhino and the unit inside is now considered destroyed since the model could not fully enter the board?

Nicorex wrote:Just a hypothtical question.

You have blocked my table edge.
I tank shock you with my rhino.
You DoG the rhino, imobilizing it, leaving half the tank off the board.
The rhino and the unit inside is now considered destroyed since the model could not fully enter the board?

Correct

Noir wrote:No, they must come on from there table edge, only way around this rule is Deep Skriking and Outflanking.

You could also tank shock through the enemy units. Or, use units which can move over terrain and enemy models such as skimmers, jetbikes and jump infantry.

Its one of those totally RAW-legal but unscrupulous barstool moves you see from time to time.

If you're not going to play a game of 40K why bother showing up (and lining your enemy's deployment zone to exploit the rules is not 'playing a game') .. Oh yeah.. to win, but any means necessary...

If anyone did this to me, in or out of a tournament, they'd be getting dreadsocked...

It's viciously effective against Nids especially, as few nids fly, and they can't tankshock their MCs.

Ascalam wrote:Its one of those totally RAW-legal but unscrupulous barstool moves you see from time to time.

If you're not going to play a game of 40K why bother showing up (and lining your enemy's deployment zone to exploit the rules is not 'playing a game') .. Oh yeah.. to win, but any means necessary...

If anyone did this to me, in or out of a tournament, they'd be getting dreadsocked...

It's viciously effective against Nids especially, as few nids fly, and they can't tankshock their MCs.

If your so dumb you reserve your whole force, while the other guys feilding enough Infiltrate to do it, you should hit yourself. Tactic change by what the other person plays, if you don't change them you should lose. Maybe next time you will think through all the out comes of a action. But, as your willing to hit someone for it I'm guessing you care to learn from it.

I never reserve my whole force, but i consider it a pretty low move, one short step above declaring 'game called because of earthquake' and tipping the table over.

I've not had it happen to me (as i'm not about to reserve my whole force, given how prevalent this tactic seems to be becoming) but i consider it a very dubious autowin. It precludes actually playing a game. Winning without even firing a shot on either side isn't much of a game imo.

I think its a valid tactic. Its kinda hard to do it, and it relies on that you or your opponent does a really stupid move.

So if you fall for it you kindda deserves it.

To have it happen you have to reserve your whole force, with no vehicles, no skimmers, no jump packs, no jet bikes, no deep strikers, and no outflankers (unless he's covered three sides of the table).

If you do that against an opponent with loads of infiltrators then you're asking for it. Accept that you screwed up and play him again but deploy one model on the table.

It's fully rules-legal, and requires the opponent to practically agree to getting insta-tabled due to all the ways you can get around it. Worst case scenario, it's not hard to shrug and run the game again and ask if the enemy would like to maybe deploy a few units on the table this time.
I'm afraid I don't quite fully understand why this is on par with upturning the table.

It's rules legal, and i can't argue that (nor will I)

There are valid reasons for reserving your whole force (example- an all pieplate IG force rolls to go first, and gets the side of the table with all the worthwhile scenery (bad breaks, but possible) especially if you are running a low model count army. I don't do it myself, but reserving your whole force is a common tactic.

You don't always know what oppoent you'll be up against (especially in tournaments), and not all armies have access to worthwhile jump infantry, flying vehicles/bikes or deep strike.


regardless of this, it's still a douchy move. Lining three sides of the board is an amazingly douchy move.


The similarity to overturning the table has nothing to do with it being rules legal. It's the 'you can't have a game, I win' aspect. Granted that your opponent would either have to be playing a list that's not at all good at dealing with this tactic (or of course his vehicles that would be tankshocking in all get tagged en route and destroyed) but still... Re-running the game isn't an option at tournaments either, as the famous white-scars vs tau game proved.

My beef is with the dickishness of the move, not the legality. My opinion. Feel free to disagree

*edited for clarity*

And yet, all you have to do to prevent it is deploy ONE model. So even against that pie-plate IG, surely you have one model taht you're willing to deploy to prevent his Ratlings (IGs only regularly inflitrating unit) or Harker's vet squad from blocking your table edge. And it's a lot easier to hide one model than it is to hide a squad.

Bottom line, no dickishness involved, only stupidity on the part of anyone taht lets it happen to them.

Haha awsome

I_like_u wrote:If a player reserves his army and his opponent manages to block his entire board edge...

is it possible to start at your own board edge and move around the opposing models and enter from the side of the board, assuming the model has enough movement?

And no, there is no need for the kroot vs whitescars picture.

OP it is not possible to start at your own board edge and move around the opposing models and enter from the side of the board.

With that said, you have a few options:

1: Say Good Game (while using air quotes), and go find someone else, who wont be a and play them instead.

2: laugh at your opponent and say 'Really? How about we play an actual game'

3: if you have tanks, tank shock him where he has no weapons that can hurt your tank and come on the board that way.

Ascalam wrote:It's rules legal, and i can't argue that (nor will I)

There are valid reasons for reserving your whole force (example- an all pieplate IG force rolls to go first, and gets the side of the table with all the worthwhile scenery (bad breaks, but possible) especially if you are running a low model count army. I don't do it myself, but reserving your whole force is a common tactic.

You don't always know what oppoent you'll be up against (especially in tournaments), and not all armies have access to worthwhile jump infantry, flying vehicles/bikes or deep strike.


regardless of this, it's still a douchy move. Lining three sides of the board is an amazingly douchy move.

Many armies are not capable of lining three sides of the board. For example, the IG force you mentioned can only get 30 infiltrators - that's not enough to line three sides.

If you're planning all reserve against an army with lots of infiltrators all you need to do is deploy something.

Granted. I'm not arguing that it's an unbeatable tactic.

I'm saying its a dick move to actually do it.

Those of you who can't concieve of why it would be a dick move to do this aren't likely to be swayed by anything I say about it, especially with the backing of solid rules behind you. It's legal, it works, it wins you the game if they are dumb enough to permit it... nuff said.

It's still a way of winning without actually playing the game. My problem with it is that people think this constitutes a 'win' somehow or was actually playing a game of 40K.

Would letting them deploy from reserve really hurt? You wouldn't get your first turn oblit with heavy guns, but they'd be starting driving onto the board, unable to fire anything Heavy, or limited in the hell they could hit you with from the vehicles, due to moving and range considerations.

Board lining is for someone who wants a win, not a game.

Ascalam wrote:There are valid reasons for reserving your whole force (example- an all pieplate IG force rolls to go first, and gets the side of the table with all the worthwhile scenery (bad breaks, but possible) especially if you are running a low model count army. I don't do it myself, but reserving your whole force is a common tactic.

That doesn't mean it's automatically the best tactic for the situation. Part of the challenge of a strategic wargame lies in adapting your tactics to your opponent. A tactic that works well in one situation isn't always going to work as well in another situation... so an army that relies on always using that tactic has a built-in weakness.

If you can't recognise that, you are going to lose the moment you encounter an opponent who does recognise it. Them taking advantage of that weakness isn't them being dodgy. It's them using superior tactics against an opponent who didn't stop to think about what they were doing.

You don't always know what oppoent you'll be up against...

By the time you're deploying your army, you certainly should have some idea of what you're up against.



Before the current rulebook FAQ, I would have (and did, the last time this issue came up before the FAQ) agreed that this was a dodgy move... because it was exploiting a loophole in the rules to stall the game, rather than an actual mechanic for winning.

With the rules as they currently stand, though... both players should be aware going into the game that reserving your whole force can, if your opponent has enough infiltrators, make it possible for an army to be destroyed before moving onto the board, and should factor that into their strategy.

To put it into perspective somewhat, if you deploy your entire army standing in the open, and your opponent goes first and wipes out your army in his first round of shooting, is that also a 'dick move'? In the same way as the infiltrating block, you still don't get to play a game... and also in the same way, it happens because you choose to utilise a strategy that leaves your opponent a strong opening to quickly and painlessly wipe you out.

It's not a dick move to pieplate someone off the table.

It's nasty, but at least you are actually rolling dice, and there is some chance they might actually get to roll some too, if you fail to oblit them on turn one. I consider the capability to do this a result of cruddy codex writing, but you are actually playing a game.

'Beep- game over' before a single dice has been rolled is a different case. No game has been played. You've just put up a big imaginary sign saying 'denied' and declared a win.

Will it win you games- yes
Will it win you friends - unlikely.

I'm aware that you should be able to tell (assuming you know JACK about their army- a lot of players were surprised to learn froma new Tau player here that Kroot could infiltrate- no Tau players in the vicinity ) that they can infiltrate. I'm aware the tactic is counterable.

My beef is not with the fact that you can counter it. My beef is with the tactic being used at all, without being considered to be dubious.

Ascalam wrote:It's not a dick move to pieplate someone off the table.

It's nasty, but at least you are actually rolling dice, and there is some chance they might actually get to roll some too, if you fail to oblit them on turn one. I consider the capability to do this a result of cruddy codex writing, but you are actually playing a game.

'Beep- game over' before a single dice has been rolled is a different case. No game has been played. You've just put up a big imaginary sign saying 'denied' and declared a win.

I'm really not seeing a difference, though. In both cases, it's not your opponent winning the game... it's you handing it to them on a platter.

I'm aware that you should be able to tell (assuming you know JACK about their army- a lot of players were surprised to learn froma new Tau player here that Kroot could infiltrate- no Tau players in the vicinity ) that they can infiltrate.

Knowing what other armies can do is also a valuable part of playing a strategy game. If you lose because you aren't cognizant of your opponent's special rules, again, that's not really your opponent's fault.


At the end of the day, your opponent is not obliged to make allowances for you for choosing to do something tactically unwise. Yes, it's a game... but it's a game that has the object of having one player actually winning. Your opponent is no more obliged to weaken his strategy because you have deployed unwisely than he is to refrain from shooting you with weapons that you don't get to roll a save against... and his choice to capitalise on that is not 'being a dick'... it's just playing the game.

You are responsible for the tactics you choose to employ. If your chosen tactic loses you the game without you ever rolling a die, that's your mistake. Instead of calling your opponent names, learn from it, and look at how to counter it next time. Adapt your tactics to suit the situation. Don't expect your opponent to adapt theirs to forgive your mistakes.

Perfectly legal, and I would do it to an opponent if the situation presented itself. It's like the 4-move checkmate in chess. If your opponent misses the opportunities to block the checkmate, you should take the advantage.

Also, after a win like this, I would immediately offer my opponent another "real" game. If it's at a tournament, my opponent hopefully goes home a little bit wiser.

Rephistorch wrote: It's like the 4-move checkmate in chess.

I once did that to a friend 3 times in a row the first time we played Chess. He was cranky as all get out by the third time... until I just pointed out to him that if he wanted me to stop doing it, all he needed to do was to stop making the same opening moves every game, and start actually thinking about what I was doing so he could figure out how to counter it.


Which is every bit as applicable here. If you're aware that the tactic is possible, take it into consideration when you deploy.