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Been reworking this list for a while and think I found one I can do well with.

HQ

Hive Tyrant (280)
OA, HVC, Wings, BS/ LW

ELITES

2 Hive Guard (100)

2 Hive Guard (100)

2 Zoanthropes (120)

TROOPS

11 Termagaunts (55)

Tervigon (195)
TS, AG, Catalyst, Cluster Spines

FAST ATTACK
25 Gargoyles (150)


Should add up to 1000 even. Should have decent balance to fight most 1K lists out there. Thoughts?

Workable, but there's a lot of points in that HQ choice. He gets popped, game over. Also zoanthropes really need a spore to be effective as their best power has only 18" range. If not, you will need to keep them close to gaunt shield and potential FNP from tervigon.

You could always run a second tervigon as HQ instead.

I would like to use the HT as he can keep up with the gargoyles for some extra punch. I think he has survivability with the gargoyle screen. I don't think a horde of gargoyles will do much by jumping ahead without something big following them. And if they hold back I might as just use more termagaunts.

The second tervigon seems like it would be slow and harm my CC output heavily. Perhaps a prime with twin BS and a naked trygon could be consider. The prime would also make the Zoeys survive longer I think. I guess that's something to consider. Not sure how I feel about that.

Am I on the right track with my thinking?

Id say you would be better off with the parasite to go with the gargoyles, save around 120pts thats close to 20 gaunts yea?, dont have my dex on me, or you could run a nid prime as well.

Personally, I'd try something more like:

- Hive Tyrant (LW/BS, scytals, Leech, Paroxysm, OA)

- Hive Guard x 2

- Hive Guard x 2

- Venomthrope x 2

- Termigaunts x 11

- Tervigon ( Catalyst, AG, TS, Cluster Spines)

- Gargoyles x 23 (TS,AG)

Not sure why anyone would take toxin sacs on gargoyles, if you want cc go hormagaunts

I'd just go with barebones Gargs. They're pretty good with their own special rules.

Personally I dont take Hive Tyrants in games smaller than 1500, namely because it's too much points to funnel into one MC that will have no invul or (likely) cover save. A Prime or Parasite is a much better choice. 120 points translates to another 24 gaunts or 20 more Gargoyles.

I'm yet to test Parasite in a game, I like the idea that he can join the gargoyles. An extra 20 gargoyles would make this list interesting.

Thanks for the feedback guys!

HQ

Parasite of Mortrex (160)

ELITES

2 Hive Guard (100)

2 Hive Guard (100)

2 Zoanthropes (120)

TROOPS

11 Termagaunts (55)

Tervigon (195)
Catalyst, TS, AG, Cluster Spines

FAST ATTACK

25 Gargoyles (150)

20 Gargoyles (120)

That looks like an awsomely fun list, bugger painting that many gargoyles though

It's about the same as the termagaunts I painted for running a tervigon.

Now it's not in question that this would be a fun list, but the tournament scene is what I'm curious about.

dreadanant wrote:Not sure why anyone would take toxin sacs on gargoyles, if you want cc go hormagaunts

Because if you take Adrenal Glands, and Toxin Sacs on Gargoyles, and you get the charge you'll have rerollable 4+ wounds on T4 and below? Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands are Cheap, and absolutely phenomenal with Gargs, and they are much more effective, and cheaper than Hormagaunts with the same load out. Couple the with a Flyrant, Who uses paroxysm on the enemy, as well as having old adversary, the enemy unit is not got going to Survive.

A Flyrant and a Garg Squad provide great synergy, and is pretty much a mobile cover save for the Flyrant.

It's the same reason why your Tervigon should have Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands, since he grants it to nearby Termagaunts.

However, at 1000 points, things are going to get costly, very quickly.

If you want to Use a HT at that point level in synergy, here is a list I would start out at.

Tyrant- Wings, 2x Scytals, Old Adversary

2x Hive Guard

2x Hive Guard

10x Termagaunts

1x Tervigon with Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, and Catalyst

20x Gargoyles with Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands

This adds up to 860, points, so you still have 140 points to mess with.

Zoanthropes are really not optimal, in any situation vs AV13-14. They relay to much on chance, and get shutdown very easy with things like a Psychic Hood. Remember, that they have to pass the psychic test, then roll to hit, and then hopefully get a good roll on the Vehicle damage chart. Instead, you can take a flying Tyrant that will re roll all misses, and get 2d6+str6 for pen.

I will say that bringing a Tyrant in at this level, is a pretty hefty point Sink, so you may want to rethink the methodolgy of your list. Keep in mind things have to work together really well in a Tyranid list, to work well at all.

Taking inspiration to the Sasori's good advices I will try sonthing like this:

HQ - Tyrant - BS & LW - Acid Blood - 1x TL Devourer - Old Adversary - Paroxism and Leech Ess. - Adrenal Glands - Wings. 295
EL - 2x Hive Guards. 100
EL - 2x Hive Guards. 100
TR - 10x Termagants. 50
TR - Tervigon - Adrenal Glands - Toxin Sacs - Catalyst. 195
TR - 10x Stealers. 140
FA - 15x Gargoyles - Adrenal Glands - Toxin Sacs. 120

A lot of points on the Flyrant, of course, but at least one powerfull disturb unit more than before for just 5 Goyles less that doesn't particulary change the setup.

gargoyles dont have any re roll to wound, and have 1 less initatiave and attack to houmagaunts, its the same as giving a tremagaunt toxin sacs and adrenial glands, and haumagaunts have a good chance to move as fast as gargoyles with bounding leap, cc is done best by haumagaunts, out of all 3 lil ones the only thing gargoyles do better is peovide a beter screne, fly rant is way too expencive in a 1k pt game.

While the stats differ on gaunts and goyles, the goyles are slightly cheaper and will ALWAYS move 12" not having to rely on dice. Plus they can shoot and as you said can screen. I do agree that at 1k points the flyrant is too much of a points sink. And if you do take him, acid blood is really . My tyrant usually dies to shooting not cc and so AB won't help you there.

*edited for spelling

Im only arguing the point that out of all the gaunts/gargoyles its the haumagaunts are the ones that are decent at cc aka adrenials and sacs are a waste of points on gargoyles


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Woop just read up on the poisond rules reguarding the re roll wounds, thing lol my bad

dreadanant wrote:Im only arguing the point that out of all the gaunts/gargoyles its the haumagaunts are the ones that are decent at cc aka adrenials and sacs are a waste of points on gargoyles


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Woop just read up on the poisond rules reguarding the re roll wounds, thing lol my bad

Hormagaunts are only slightly better in CC, with one extra attack, the single pair of Scytals, and the +1 Init. They are also 2 points a piece more expensive with the same load out. Gargoyles are Much Faster, Have a shooting Attack, are cheaper, and still can reap the benefits of a very successful close combat. If A Tyrant with Old Adversary is nearby, they get a reroll to all melee attacks, and if they get the charge off, they will get the Reroll poison attacks against T4 and below and strike at I5. Not to mention that every six on the roll to hit in close combat , thanks to "Blinding Venom" grants an automatic wound. These rules, along with their shooting make them a superior and cheaper choice than Hormagaunts.

So, while Hormagaunts may be slightly better at CC, Gargoyles can do a lot more, and do very well in close combat, for cheaper.

Fair enough, what ive found with nids is that there similer to eldar where each unit is specified to one role and work in concert rather than spend points making one unit multi role, especialy when there just spare wounds anyway, but thats just me, 2pts for an extra atack, 2+ initaitave and re roll 1's sounds like a better deal to me, espicaly when they get all the advantages of the options aswell aka poision ect.

dreadanant wrote:Fair enough, what ive found with nids is that there similer to eldar where each unit is specified to one role and work in concert rather than spend points making one unit multi role, especialy when there just spare wounds anyway, but thats just me, 2pts for an extra atack, 2+ initaitave and re roll 1's sounds like a better deal to me, espicaly when they get all the advantages of the options aswell aka poision ect.

That's sure but try to see the overall analysis. We can't simply make a confrontation between Hormies and Goyles, they're differently effective depending on the general setup.

The 2 combos, walking Tyrant with Hormies and the Flyrant + Goyles, both effective, aren't exactly givin' the same results but most of all are not mixable.

On paper and in tournaments, I'm feeling really better with the walking setup but it's just me.

Anyway, if we consider a Flyrant, there is no doubts on which support unit to take.
The Goyles will not only provide a cover save for the HQ but will move "with him" not depending on different "run" rolls (something that happens quitely often in the walking combo).
So they will profit from all the bonuses given by the Tyrant still functionin' as cover unit.

Besides, a walking tyrant almost alwais deserve at least 2 guards (maybe not at 1000 points but in general..) and they're just the double of points in comparison of wings.

All depends on a lot of factors as usual, the adversary army, the general setup of the list (foot sloggin' or deep striking/outlfanking), etc.. BUT, for an ALL COMERS setup, viable in tournaments, the foot slogging patterns are the way.

dreadanant wrote:Fair enough, what ive found with nids is that there similer to eldar where each unit is specified to one role and work in concert rather than spend points making one unit multi role, especialy when there just spare wounds anyway, but thats just me, 2pts for an extra atack, 2+ initaitave and re roll 1's sounds like a better deal to me, espicaly when they get all the advantages of the options aswell aka poision ect.

Hormagaunts only have +1 Init over Gargoyles.

But they are much slower, do not have a shooting attack, and depending on large your broods are, you can be looking at an extra 40-50 points in cost. You are also more likely to lose Hormaguants in CC, since you don't have the shooting that Gargs have to soften up the enemy, before they charge and and even with one point less init than Hormagaunts, it's still higher than most other units out there, and will likely be striking first anyway.

The slight advantages in CC, do not outweigh the multitude of other advantages that Gargs have over Hormagaunts.

Why have something that is more expensive, has to footslog to the enemy and lacks a shooting attack, When you can have a cheaper, faster, unit that can shoot, and still do excellent in close combat. I just believe that you get much more for Gargoyles, for cheaper, and that Hormagaunts only have a Marginal advantage, and only in CC compared to the full package that Gargoyles preform.

Hormaugaunts get the +1 initaitive from fc on top of the +1 in there stats, a hormagaunts job its the same as a genestealer, for lower armoured foes albiet, im not saying gargoyles cant fight cc im just saying hormagaynts do it better, its there niche, im not looking at what else a gargoyle can do its the fact your spending pts on cc orientated upgrades on a unit that probaly wont make it into cc, nor was made for cc, they share the same stat line with termagaunts. While I agree they may do better with a flyrant, and can always move fast, there just not as good cc troops as hormaugunts, even with fc.

You shouldn't count Horms getting the +1 for FC as goyles ALSO get +1 to FC. So the only difference is the base initiative.

But to the OP, let us know how that list works out. Or whatever list you're going to use works out. Have fun

dreadanant wrote:Hormaugaunts get the +1 initaitive from fc on top of the +1 in there stats, a hormagaunts job its the same as a genestealer, for lower armoured foes albiet, im not saying gargoyles cant fight cc im just saying hormagaynts do it better, its there niche, im not looking at what else a gargoyle can do its the fact your spending pts on cc orientated upgrades on a unit that probaly wont make it into cc, nor was made for cc, they share the same stat line with termagaunts. While I agree they may do better with a flyrant, and can always move fast, there just not as good cc troops as hormaugunts, even with fc.

Gargoyles have a better chance of making it into Close combat than footslogging Hormagaunts do. Not to mention, A hormagaunts job is much diffrent than a genestealers as well, but I'm not here to debate that.


I keep repeating myself here, and you seem to just ignore what I'm saying. Hormagaunts are Marginally better than Gargoyles in CC with the same upgrades. I agree. as I've said in my other posts. However, Gargoyles have a long list of things that they do better, which more than makes up for the slight combat ineffectiveness. You are not wasting upgrades on a unit that CAN PREFORM BETTER than Hormagaunts can.


Let's look at it from your point of view. Why are you wasting more points on a slower unit, that will probably not make into CC, when you can spend less on a faster unit, shoot the enemy, then charge and have better results?

Ok im just guna stop now, were filling up this poor fellas thread with an argument, but the point I was trying to make was that why make a shooty unit a lil better at cc when theres an option for a single point more (bare) that does a better job, and with the steeler reference, I was saying that neither can shoot and have the same play style aka move, run, slash.

dreadanant wrote:Hormaugaunts get the +1 initaitive from fc on top of the +1 in there stats, a hormagaunts job its the same as a genestealer, for lower armoured foes albiet, im not saying gargoyles cant fight cc im just saying hormagaynts do it better, its there niche, im not looking at what else a gargoyle can do its the fact your spending pts on cc orientated upgrades on a unit that probaly wont make it into cc, nor was made for cc, they share the same stat line with termagaunts. While I agree they may do better with a flyrant, and can always move fast, there just not as good cc troops as hormaugunts, even with fc.

Im sorry but a hormaguants job and a stealers job are COMPLETLY differnet, firstly you dont fotslog stealers you infiltrate, stealers are over 3 times the amount of points aswell, im sorry but if you consider them as "doing the same job" then you arn't playing tyranids correctly.

But im not going to get into it zzzzzzzz

I just ment the fact that there both cc only, and the fact there taylored to do so.