And we all shal feel no pain

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**epil**

Since the new edition of 40k has come out it seems that each new codex has alot more units with Feel No Pain. I've played chaos for a while now and one thing I always felt was special about plague marines was their feel no pain special rule. Fighting Nids or Blood Angels recently I realzied that it's possible for them to have vast amount of Feel No Pain. The blood angles have their apothicaries which give it to everything withing X inches and Now it seems that Grey knights will have a good deal of appothicaries as well. Entering the age of Feel No Pain what could plague marines end up getting in their next codex to make them special again? (and no Im not forgetting they have t5)

**Captain Jack**

It seems to be a general theme with the special rules becoming more common and not so special. It's one of my bugbears that almost every list has access to the specials in a lot of areas, so much so that they are more a part of daily gaming. At least there isn't the potential of having 3 saves like there used to be in Warhammer.

My second bugbear at the moment is leadership and special weapons. There are so many units that are Ld10 or fearless or have access to it, that weapons with special abilities like pinning are pitiful. Yes there are units that aren't but there are complete armies that are ITP.

I think that maybe the next edition needs to deal with the special rules a different way and possibly bring Ld down so that it has more effect as in Fantasy. Units should be more prone to running away IMO.

**Luke_Prowler**

Feel No Pain is probably the only universal rule that's actually going to be universal. Doesn't help that the BA have an aura version on an IC, which is a big FU to Plague Marines and Nobz.

**Footsloggin**

Plague Marines will get a points reduction MAYBE. That, or maybe even Aura of Decay, allowing for your Marines to wade through swarms. I think that would be pretty cool...

**Azure**

Keep everything the same but 3+ FNP? To OP?

**Magister187**

epil wrote:Now it seems that Grey knights will have a good deal of appothicaries as well.

At 130 points for an apothecary who can only give FNP to his 55 point brethren, I will be extremely surprised if you ever play against more then a handful of GK Apothecaries.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Blood Angels though is really pushing it. Not only is it an area of effect rule, but fluff wise it's coming from a bloodied cup! Plague Marine still hold a special niche though, they are not dependant on a single mode that can be picked out in combat and have blight Grenades on top of their T5. Necrons, however, must be feeling the hurt, as they're more or less overcosted Blood Angel Tact Marines with no other special rule, gimped Melee stats, and no heavy weapons or transport.

I still remember a time where I looked into the rulebook, saw Feel No Pain, said "Omg this is such an awesome rule!" and then seeing it as a costly upgrade in the Book of Khorne and thinking "Even at that price, it's worth it!". Now it's more like "20 points? and it doesnt have FnP? REALLY? How is this thing ever going to be viable?"

**Ailaros**

Yeah, FNP has become more common, but I don't particularly begrudge it. With a D6 system, having two layers of defense does a much better job of giving a unit durability than just improving their single layer (say, better armor or invul saves).

If plague marines want to be more special, I wouldn't take away FNP, I'd just make their version better, or make them cheaper, as others have mentioned.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Invulnerable saves really are just a "feel good" thing. On paper Terminators with a 5+ save seems much more survivable than a Power armored space marine. Cue in-game where you're being pummeled by 5+ lascannon shots. suddenly that 5+ save doesnt feel so "safe" anymore. Even though you can justify it in that you were being shot at by lascannons, for one moment in the game your termiantors became to basically an overcosted guardsman for a turn, and god help you if this happened right at the beginning of the game.

**Vaktathi**

Invul saves are there for mitigation, they aren't meant to be relied on, merely to lessen the pain. 2+ saves are meant to be relied on. Invul saves mean you keep 1 or 2 guys from a demolisher cannon blast rather than losing them all. The 5+ was put in for Terminators a while after the 3E reboot when Termi's were felt to be way too vulnerable, and that helped a lot. It made them back roughly into their 2E counterparts in regards to saves against lascannons.

The game since 3rd has been carefully designed not to have nigh impossible to kill units with multiple overlapping saves. FNP kinda craps on that.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Crap is putting it lightly. My friend still curses my name whenever I bring plague marines to the field.

**PraetorDave**

IDk I don't think FNP is that widespread. Sure Blood Angels get it a bunch (but come on they are blood angels, kings of cheese!), but for the most part they are limited to one or two units in other codices.

Plague marines
Nobz
Apothecaries and Captain Sicarius
Sitm Injectors on Commanders (Tau)
I don't know why someone said Nids, I can't remember anyone in there having it (though don't have my dex on me).

The other thing is, its fairly easy to counter. Just like any other high save, weapons with Low AP, power weapons, and ID weapons all negate it. So generally, you have ways of countering it in your army. And, since it is generally one unit on the field (blood angels be damned), you can deal with it, albeit with some difficulty.

**Footsloggin**

Nids have a psychic power and IG have medipacks.

**Vaktathi**

PraetorDave wrote:IDk I don't think FNP is that widespread. Sure Blood Angels get it a bunch (but come on they are blood angels, kings of cheese!), but for the most part they are limited to one or two units in other codices.

Plague marines
Nobz
Apothecaries and Captain Sicarius
Sitm Injectors on Commanders (Tau)
I don't know why someone said Nids, I can't remember anyone in there having it (though don't have my dex on me).

The other thing is, its fairly easy to counter. Just like any other high save, weapons with Low AP, power weapons, and ID weapons all negate it. So generally, you have ways of countering it in your army. And, since it is generally one unit on the field (blood angels be damned), you can deal with it, albeit with some difficulty.

In addition to the units you posted above, the following can also have FNP

IG command squads

Gunnery Sergeant Harker

upcoming GK's can get it at least in Paladin squads

Belial's Deathwing squad

Plaguebearers

Great Unclean Ones

Beasts of Nurgle

Heralds of Nurgle

Typhus

Fuegan

Tervigon can give it to a unit via a psychic power

Almost all Dark Eldar units can get it, many start with it.

There may be a couple more I'm forgetting.

**Ailaros**

For the record, just because guard CAN take FNP on a couple of units doesn't mean guard ever SHOULD take FNP when it's offered.

Show me a guard army that has units with FNP, and I'll show you a guard army that's wasting points.

**Vaktathi**

A Straken command squad?

**MechaEmperor7000**

Given that Necrons are rumored to be up next, there is now potentially 2 whole races with FnP, with one that has a FnP bubble and a whole build (if you count nurgle as a separate faction) in the Daemon army that also has built-in FnP. GKs also has a considerable amount of units with FnP as well (Acroflagellants, GK apothecaries, and apparently The Assassins, although theirs is inferior going by the leaked codex). That's a hell of alot more than we had in 4th edition, and way more than it should be. And it's not counting the myriad of other FnPs that are scattered throughout other dexes.

The good thing is FnP is largely dependant on what the base creature is. a T4 Space Marine can reasonably use it to good effect, as can Wracks who have almost no armor save. However a T3 Guardsman likely wont use it, as being whacked by anything S6 means it's gone, and they actually have to pay for it (as opposed to Wracks, who basically has a 4+ save that is a bit harder to ignore than a straight up 4+ armor save).

**Ailaros**

Vaktathi wrote:A Straken command squad?

Yes, a straken command squad.

You need to kill THREE GUARDSMEN before that 30-point bucket of FNP is on the chopping block. Straken doesn't get to keep FNP if the medic dies.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:The good thing is FnP is largely dependant on what the base creature is.

Actually, that's a good point. A T5 space marine is likely going to make more use out of FNP than anyone else.

I mean, you could give grots FNP, and they'd still die more or less like grots...

**Vaktathi**

I was mainly being facetious, that's about the only place I could see it being worth it in the IG army even for the units with access to it

**MechaEmperor7000**

Remember Plague Marines are still counted as T4 for the purposes of whether or not FnP is negated by a S8 weapon. Although the T5 really does help not having to take the save in the first place.

**Ailaros**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Although the T5 really does help not having to take the save in the first place.

Exactly. A space marine charging a guardsman with FNP will force the guardsman to make an FNP check a little over half the time. A space marine charging a plague marine about 1 in 10.

To think about it another way, FNP turns a guardsman into a guardsman with a 4+ save. FNP turns a space marine into a terminator. Definitely helps the latter out more than the former.

**Mr Nobody**

This might a be a bit much, but maybe 2 wounds per plague marine, thus conveying their specialty at not dieing.

**MechaEmperor7000**

It does the reverse for GK paladins though. Gives the opponent one extra reason to start shooting them with lascannons. The points expendature there also doesnt help, since the opponent can actually afford to field a whole heavy weapons squad dedicated to pumping the Paladins full of lascannon fire, because the Paladins might actually cost more than the heavy weapons squad anyways!

**Ailaros**

That would make them twice as good for the same cost... seems a bit overpowered to me.

Either they have to give them some smaller tweak, like a 6++, or a 3+ FNP, or they just need to make them cheaper.

**MechaEmperor7000**

FnP should stay with PMs. PMs are basically Zombie marines, and not having the ability to feel pain is one of the classic Zombie traits. Apart from the Necrons they should just stop handing out FnP like candy on halloween.

**Mr Nobody**

FnP should be restricted to models that literally do not feel pain. This would mean Necrons, plague marines (amongst other chaos units) and Tyranids. Space marines have pain nerves, meaning they feel pain, they just have a high threshold. But backround doesn't always match up with gameplay.

**jcd386**

Grey knights have FNP on 3 units:

Paladins: So...you're going to spend 70 points to avoid wounds on a units that already has 2+ armor, 2 wounds, and can easily be geared for wound allocation? Really? How many 1s do you roll? Anything that avoids the 2+ avoids the FNP, so i don't see the point.

Assassins: They have a 6+ form of feel no pain...which is pretty useless. Not really sure why it's there at all.

Acro-flagellents: they have feel no pain, and no armor save. Woohoo.

FNP is fine IMO, as all it does is make units more resilient against small arms fire and regular close combat attacks, which is exactly what it is supposed to do. Plague Marines are rotting or w/e, SMs have doctors pumping stuff into them, dark eldar mutants either don't feel the pair or like it, and nids...well i don't actually know why they get it. I guess they are really hungry or something.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Nids get it because the hive mind literally tells them "You now lost the ability to feel pain" or something to those lines. Given that Pain is a sort of "warning system" in the mind, it's easy to see how the Hive Mind can just shut it off at a moment's notice, but has to do it through a Tervigon. Why they dont keep it off though, is probably the same reason why normal people born without pain receptors are afraid of mundane injury: They can get hurt, bleed out or get infections, and wont know until they're almost dead.

**Vaktathi**

Ailaros wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Although the T5 really does help not having to take the save in the first place.

Exactly. A space marine charging a guardsman with FNP will force the guardsman to make an FNP check a little over half the time. A space marine charging a plague marine about 1 in 10.

To think about it another way, FNP turns a guardsman into a guardsman with a 4+ save. FNP turns a space marine into a terminator. Definitely helps the latter out more than the former.

Actually, functionally it FNP give a Guardsmen the equivalent of a 3+ sv as long as it isn't being hit by something S6 or a powerweapon. 1/3 chance of saving with armor, and 50% chance on the other 2/3 chance to pass, so we get X=(1/3)+((1/2)*(1/3))=2/3.

**MechaEmperor7000**

There are much more S6+ weapons than there are S8+ weapons though, and FnP basically doubles the survival rate of any unit it's given to, so a unit that naturally survives better benefits way more from the rule than a unit that survives poorly.