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So I was playing a game with a friend earlier today, my Blood Angels with Daemonhunter allies (I'll abuse the crap out of it with what little time I have left!) against a friend's Necrons. It was a team game, but the other two players are irrelevant to the issue.

Anyway, Necron player was on the verge of phase out. He had 12 warriors and a lord (with a res orb) left. I multi-assault the lord and the warriors with a unit of Grand Master and unit of 4 Grey Knight Terminators.

Grand Master goes at initiative 5, wounds the lord, and uses his force weapon to remove the lord from the game.
The Terminators then strike at initiative 4, killing 8 warriors.

At this point he's well below the phase out limit.

So does he phase out at the beginning of his turn since the Lord was still in the game at the beginning of the assault phase, or does he get to make his WBB rolls for the warriors using the benefits of the lord's res orb (because they were all hit with power weapons), even though the lord (and thus his res orb) was removed from the game before any of the warriors were actually wounded? After some deliberation, we just rolled off and let him make his WBB rolls (of which he passed every one... he rolled really damn well that game) to keep the game moving along.

Another situation that came up earlier during the game, if a lord is part of a unit that is assaulted, the unit is beaten in combat, the lord is killed off, and the unit is sweeped, does the lord get sweeped with the unit, even if he is already dead? Or does he get removed from the unit as soon as he's knocked over and get to make his WBB rolls?

For the first question, I think he get's his WBB roles. It's when the Necrons are taken off as casualties that the Phase Out rules comes into play.

As for the second question, I think the lord still gets his WBB rules.

Don't think of downed Necrons as dead, just think of them as on the floor. If they get back up, they were just knocked down, if they don't then they're broken.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:For the first question, I think he get's his WBB roles. It's when the Necrons are taken off as casualties that the Phase Out rules comes into play.

This isn't the Lord. He was removed from the game by the Grand Master's force weapon power. Remember, this is the old Daemonhunter codex where their force weapons take the model off the table, not kill them. This is about the warriors that were in the same assault, who took their wounds after the warrior had been removed from the table.

As for whether the lord gets sweeping advanced if he's already "dead", thats been debated on here in the past, and I believe the consensus was that if he is in a unit that's swept (downed or not), then the lord is removed.

As for your first question, if the lord dies at a higher initative step than the warriors, then the warriors won't benefit from his orb, and will die outright to power weapons. Think of it like killing a sanguniary priest at a higher initative step, and then the unit losing FNP at a lower step.

Sucks for us crons, but them's the breaks.

Have a look at the Necron FAQ, it covers your first situation explicitly - no WBB for models downed by power weapons / ID attacks AFTER the Res Orb Lord is knocked over.

The lord, and any other necron models, is still part of the unit when the Sweeping Advance occurs; SA states that NO SPECIAL RULE can save the unit (so, that'd be WBB then) *unless* it specifically states it can - which WBB does not.

This has been true since 4th edition, btw.

Can Grey Knight Terminators make a sweeping advance?

I did not think terminators were allowed to perform such a move.

Though I have not seen the Daemonhunter allies rules, is there something in there that lets them SA?

The (old)DH codex states "may only consolidate" for terminator armor. But it's not clear from the OP whether it was terminators doing the sweeping advance or not.

Fafnir wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:For the first question, I think he get's his WBB roles. It's when the Necrons are taken off as casualties that the Phase Out rules comes into play.

This isn't the Lord. He was removed from the game by the Grand Master's force weapon power. Remember, this is the old Daemonhunter codex where their force weapons take the model off the table, not kill them. This is about the warriors that were in the same assault, who took their wounds after the warrior had been removed from the table.

Just so you know all Necron get their WBB roles against removed from play, but as stated above he went down first so no one else does since those were PW kills.

DeathReaper wrote:Can Grey Knight Terminators make a sweeping advance?

I did not think terminators were allowed to perform such a move.

Though I have not seen the Daemonhunter allies rules, is there something in there that lets them SA?

The Sanguinor made the sweeping advance, not the terminators.

Sol wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:For the first question, I think he get's his WBB roles. It's when the Necrons are taken off as casualties that the Phase Out rules comes into play.

This isn't the Lord. He was removed from the game by the Grand Master's force weapon power. Remember, this is the old Daemonhunter codex where their force weapons take the model off the table, not kill them. This is about the warriors that were in the same assault, who took their wounds after the warrior had been removed from the table.

Just so you know all Necron get their WBB roles against removed from play, but as stated above he went down first so no one else does since those were PW kills.

Daemonhunter force weapons don't inflict any wounds on the model with their special rule, they just remove it from play. There's no WBB to make since the model wasn't actually 'killed,' just removed. WBB would work with the new force weapons, but Daemonhunters have those cool funky old ones still.

Well, your OP only says GK termies and grandmaster. Maybe if you had told us the Sanguinor was involved........................

I said another situation came up earlier in the game, I said I was playing Bblood Angels with allied Grey Knights. Not to mention that who made the sweeping advance move is largely unimportant. I only detailed that the Grey Knight terminators because their force weapons have different effects.

Gotcha. And to answer the question, IMO the Lord is swept along with the rest of the unit, as damaged models are still part of the unit.

Fafnir wrote:Daemonhunter force weapons don't inflict any wounds on the model with their special rule, they just remove it from play. There's no WBB to make since the model wasn't actually 'killed,' just removed. WBB would work with the new force weapons, but Daemonhunters have those cool funky old ones still.

Q. Are models with an ability to return to play (e.g. Necrons,
St. Celestine, etc) able to use their special rule even after
being removed from play by The Last Laugh? (p52)
A. Yes they can. It sounds odd but their special rule works
just fine.

You get WBB rolls against remove from play.

Sol wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Daemonhunter force weapons don't inflict any wounds on the model with their special rule, they just remove it from play. There's no WBB to make since the model wasn't actually 'killed,' just removed. WBB would work with the new force weapons, but Daemonhunters have those cool funky old ones still.

Q. Are models with an ability to return to play (e.g. Necrons,
St. Celestine, etc) able to use their special rule even after
being removed from play by The Last Laugh? (p52)
A. Yes they can. It sounds odd but their special rule works
just fine.

You get WBB rolls against remove from play.

What source is this?

GW errata under Space Wolves.

WBB does not return a model to play, as a model has to still be on the table to make its WBB roll.

He's right about the Last Laugh erratta actually. That sets a very interesting precedent.

So in my situation, does the unit of warriors still get to make their WBB rolls?

I understand that the lord does, but the warriors should be removed, correct?

In your initial scenario?

If yes, the warriors still wouldn't get WBB as the orb is gone by the time the inititive step when the power weapon blows are landed comes.

In the initial scenario, doesn't matter if the Lord gets WBB or not. If he goes down (even eligible for WBB) at Init 5 and they go down at Init 6, they do not get to use the Orb.

I think you have that backwards don. If the warriors go down at the I6 stage, the lord is still there. If the lord goes down at the I5 stage, then anything that goes down at I4 through I1 does not get to benefit from the res orb.
Unless I have it screwed up?

The warriors went down to I4, not I6. Remember, as the first post detailed, the Sanguinor was not part of this conflict (he was actually killed by the Lord who resurrected after his unit got swept by the Sanguinor), the Grey Knight Terminators and the Grand Master are the only units in combat at this point.

The Lord could not have res'd, was the other point

A quick rule of thumb for Necrons and WBB and the ResOrb: The check for the ResOrb range is done when the model is damaged (killed). If the model is in range of the Orb, it can benefit from it's effect. The check for the WBB range is done at the beginning of the turn regardless of the status of the Orb; the Orb is not an issue during WBB rolls.

In the OP, once the Lord is removed (or damaged) in CC, all further models do not benefit from the Orb effect. Note: a Lord with an Orb will almost always get his his WBB roll.

The FAQ states all models in a swept unit are lost without any chance for WBB rolls, this includes any Lords attached are any models in the unit damaged prior to the unit being swept.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:A quick rule of thumb for Necrons and WBB and the ResOrb: The check for the ResOrb range is done when the model is damaged (killed). If the model is in range of the Orb, it can benefit from it's effect. The check for the WBB range is done at the beginning of the turn regardless of the status of the Orb; the Orb is not an issue during WBB rolls.

In the OP, once the Lord is removed (or damaged) in CC, all further models do not benefit from the Orb effect. Note: a Lord with an Orb will almost always get his his WBB roll.

The FAQ states all models in a swept unit are lost without any chance for WBB rolls, this includes any Lords attached are any models in the unit damaged prior to the unit being swept.

This isn't correct. I believe if you check the necron FAQ it explicitely states that the check for a rez orb is done at the time a model is killed.

Thus, if a lord in a unit of warriors is killed, then at a later initiative level warriors are killed by a weapon preventing WBB, those warriors will not get their WBB roll. I'll look up the specifics in a few minutes.

EDIT:

Found it: (GW Necron Errata)
Q. When is the range of the resurrection orb
checked? At the time the Necron becomes
damaged or at the start of the turn when WBB is
rolled for?
A. Check range when a Necron becomes
damaged. If at least one (undamaged) model in
the unit is within 6" of a resurrection orb at that
point, leave the damaged Necron on the board.
Otherwise, immediately remove it from the table
as a casualty.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The Lord could not have res'd, was the other point

But he can because the Space Wolf errata/faq says anything with that type of special rule can use it even when removed from play. Unless you are trying to say there are different types of removed from play.

No, it just talks about that one ability "The Last Laugh". If that FAQ worked on everything then sweeping advance wouldn't work as that move "removes from play" as well.

Also, space wolves =/= DH or BA.

PxDnNinja wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:A quick rule of thumb for Necrons and WBB and the ResOrb: The check for the ResOrb range is done when the model is damaged (killed). If the model is in range of the Orb, it can benefit from it's effect. The check for the WBB range is done at the beginning of the turn regardless of the status of the Orb; the Orb is not an issue during WBB rolls.

In the OP, once the Lord is removed (or damaged) in CC, all further models do not benefit from the Orb effect. Note: a Lord with an Orb will almost always get his his WBB roll.

The FAQ states all models in a swept unit are lost without any chance for WBB rolls, this includes any Lords attached are any models in the unit damaged prior to the unit being swept.

This isn't correct. I believe if you check the necron FAQ it explicitely states that the check for a rez orb is done at the time a model is killed.

Thus, if a lord in a unit of warriors is killed, then at a later initiative level warriors are killed by a weapon preventing WBB, those warriors will not get their WBB roll. I'll look up the specifics in a few minutes.

That's exactly what I posted. What did I get wrong?

Kevin949 wrote:No, it just talks about that one ability "The Last Laugh". If that FAQ worked on everything then sweeping advance wouldn't work as that move "removes from play" as well.

Also, space wolves =/= DH or BA.

But it does set precedence.

Following the logic provided by the FAQ, the Grand Master would remove the Lord from play. The Warriors would not get their WBB rolls at all (which was my opponent's error), and then assuming the Necrons didn't phase out, the Lord would get his WBB roll (which was my error).

There is no precedent set, the Lord only gets the WBB from the Last Laugh. The Force Weapon would have removed him entirely, and also removed the Rez. Orb, disallowing the Warriors to get WBB if hit by power weapons or something that denied their save in CC.