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Dreadknights can buy Personal Teleporters - which allow them to "shunt" once per game 30" away (and move as Jump Infantry)

The Grandmaster let's D3 units (including the Dreadknight) scout.

Can the Dreadknight scout with his "shunt" move?

Clarence

That is a great question. Fast vehicles are able to move flat out... I guarantee that this will be hotly debated once the codex comes out. I bet it'll have to be FAQ'd before anyone has a definite answer. My personal opinion would be yes, but that seems very over powered.

I thought I read that the "Shunt" move happens during your movement phase. Scouting moves are done before the game starts. So I am thinking no on this. I could be wrong though. Plus the "Shunt" wont allow you to assault. So you might get that first turn right near me supper shooting, but Im pretty sure you will lose the DK on my turn, Since I will not want to let you get into CC.

After reading the Personal Teleporter carefully, nothing seems to say it can only be used in the movement phase. It does say the "shunt" can be used instead of moving.

The idea is if I am going first, to scout and shunt. Then first turn charge (since he also moves as Jump Infantry.)

Even if I'm going second, two or three Dreadknights shunting are pretty hard to take down, plus they will distract you from the rest of my army.

Like I said i didnt memorize the "Shunt" rule. But the Scout rule on page 76 says you move just as if it were your regular movement "Any scout may make its normal movement". So now I think you can do your first turn assault. Three Dks hitting you first turn.. yeah that sounds nasty..

The DK is such a good shooting platform why would you want to commit it to a first round charge?

Another question: If the scout shunt is done before the actual gamestart (as the scout move would suggest) is the DK still able to do his "once per game" move? He didnt actually do it in the game (who knows how long hes been skulking around there.)

Anyway, this should better be FAQed; didnt forge world just relase a eldar warwalker with jumpack, much with the same abilities? Perhaps 5th ed will se some more "shunting" as the dexes are being released

He can get the first turn charge, im sure, but he still has to stay at least 12" away during the scout move, so some bad dice rolls could deny that charge and hurt the DK by putting it in a bad position on the opponents turn.

augustus5 wrote:The DK is such a good shooting platform why would you want to commit it to a first round charge?

Because it's also a rather good CC monster and it will be even harder to take it down in CC. (Reference: Wraithlord)

Galador wrote:He can get the first turn charge, im sure, but he still has to stay at least 12" away during the scout move, so some bad dice rolls could deny that charge and hurt the DK by putting it in a bad position on the opponents turn.

The fact that it counts as Jump Infantry and a couple servo skulls (bought thru the GM) should solve that little problem nicely.

As ridicukously overpowered as this is - i can't rule against it. My premise for this, is that youre allowed to "turbo boost" during a scout move, which i imagine would be in the same vein as this.

Extremely overpowered.

They better release the Errata soon! Omg.

Majesticgoat wrote:They better release the Errata soon! Omg.

They won't, they let the tyranid questions linger forever and that codex was really broken, they want people to try it out before deciding if it is OP or not.

The problem isnt a dreadknight, the problem is /3/ dreadknights flying over and running house on a squad or two before the game starts. For some armies thats an emergency situation, and for the point cost can do some very reasonable damage. That will buy the grey knight player 1-2 turns while his rhino's full of death cult and crusaders and other reasonably slow but strong models march across the board under a hail of S5 bolter fire.
Being able to detonate a land raider full of terminators on the first turn would be worth the sacrifice of a knight IMO

DK get PT yes

during scout, so i've heard

i'm replacing my DK torso with a nought torso and mechanical head for maximum heresy, also my inq has two daemon weapons so i can switch between them as needed

Why would they errata this?

Remember...this is a marine dex.

Fayric wrote:Another question: If the scout shunt is done before the actual gamestart (as the scout move would suggest) is the DK still able to do his "once per game" move? He didnt actually do it in the game (who knows how long hes been skulking around there.)

Anyway, this should better be FAQed; didnt forge world just relase a eldar warwalker with jumpack, much with the same abilities? Perhaps 5th ed will se some more "shunting" as the dexes are being released

Game starts directly after the dice roll for first turn, so the scout move phase is part of the game.

It's legal, it won't be nearly as game breaking as people think. You'll get to do this with 1-3 dreadknights, meaning 2 usually. If you're a canny opponent you'll probably just reserve, or if not, just let the dreadknight eat one or two things, then focus fire on it the next turn.

Let's also remember the dreadknight with that setup and zero guns is just over 200 points. Is it going to kill anything worth that much? (And btw, if you see your opponent doing this, you can also block off access to things by surrounding it, ala bubble wrap.)

targetawg wrote:
Let's also remember the dreadknight with that setup and zero guns is just over 200 points. Is it going to kill anything worth that much? (And btw, if you see your opponent doing this, you can also block off access to things by surrounding it, ala bubble wrap.)

"oh god the unit might not pay for itself" is a fallacy, the point of the dreadknights is to buy a turn while your morty+librarian+gate+terminators dickbomb list gets to ramp up for that vital first turn of eating shooting.

similar to tyranids, its about providing more threats than your opponent can deal with in the 1 turn he has before the rolling begins.

targetawg wrote:Let's also remember the dreadknight with that setup and zero guns is just over 200 points. Is it going to kill anything worth that much? (And btw, if you see your opponent doing this, you can also block off access to things by surrounding it, ala bubble wrap.)

I think you underestimate how much impact this really could have.

Long Fangs and quite possibly Land Raiders (or other high value vehicles), for example, become something of a liability. If you go second, and you play a GK guy with 2 DKs, there is a very good chance that you auto-lose 2 LF squads' worth of shooting for a significant chunk of the game, either through 1st turn combat loss or by having to reserve.

A drift away from Long Fangs fundamentally changes SW lists, which in turn can fundamentally change the meta.

Similarly, shunting Hammer DKs, although something like 230 pts, can put paid to Land Raiders filled with Termies, which are still a pretty good counter to most DK units. If by simply including one you can force your opponent into reserving the LR, then that's an advantage as well.

1st turn assault DKs isn't a game-winner in and of itself, but it certainly shouldn't be discounted, either.

sourclams wrote:

targetawg wrote:Let's also remember the dreadknight with that setup and zero guns is just over 200 points. Is it going to kill anything worth that much? (And btw, if you see your opponent doing this, you can also block off access to things by surrounding it, ala bubble wrap.)

I think you underestimate how much impact this really could have.

Long Fangs and quite possibly Land Raiders (or other high value vehicles), for example, become something of a liability. If you go second, and you play a GK guy with 2 DKs, there is a very good chance that you auto-lose 2 LF squads' worth of shooting for a significant chunk of the game, either through 1st turn combat loss or by having to reserve.

A drift away from Long Fangs fundamentally changes SW lists, which in turn can fundamentally change the meta.

Similarly, shunting Hammer DKs, although something like 230 pts, can put paid to Land Raiders filled with Termies, which are still a pretty good counter to most DK units. If by simply including one you can force your opponent into reserving the LR, then that's an advantage as well.

1st turn assault DKs isn't a game-winner in and of itself, but it certainly shouldn't be discounted, either.

I think you hit my point exactly at the end. I'm not trying to say it's not a viable strategy, or that it won't end up being good and breaking the backs of some armies. I'm saying it isn't the end of the world in need of immediate FAQ. Yes, it will threaten stationary fire bases like long fangs, use your TWC or similar to protect them. It kills a land raider, great, but thunder hammer termies probably still trounce the DK in combat.

And to the other posted with the ghost knights + mordrak + double dk

Mordrak, 5 ghost knights, and double DK with hammers is just shy of 900 points. It's decent, but remember, that's 2 MC's and 6 guys, and it's half your army. Add in the basic librarian, and now you're at 100+.

You won't be left with a whole lot to summon over after that.

Is the shunt just a "I pick up and move 30 inches" move or is it a deepstrike move, like the Gate of infinity??? If its just a move, thats awesome and will be painful, but if its a DS move, that could hurt with the size of the Dreadknight.

Galador wrote:Is the shunt just a "I pick up and move 30 inches" move or is it a deepstrike move, like the Gate of infinity??? If its just a move, thats awesome and will be painful, but if its a DS move, that could hurt with the size of the Dreadknight.

Pick up and move.

targetawg wrote:
You won't be left with a whole lot to summon over after that.

depends on the game, I mean in a us "BUY EVERYTHING" ard boys tourney, its barely half of your point value.

I think that using it as the one trick pony of your list is a bad choice, but considering how powerful it can be I can imagine it being a cornerstone of GK (which isnt supprisng since it is a new model that they are trying to push

Grundz wrote:

targetawg wrote:
You won't be left with a whole lot to summon over after that.

depends on the game, I mean in a us "BUY EVERYTHING" ard boys tourney, its barely half of your point value.

I think that using it as the one trick pony of your list is a bad choice, but considering how powerful it can be I can imagine it being a cornerstone of GK (which isnt supprisng since it is a new model that they are trying to push

Yea, at Ard Boyz levels it may be fairly broken. I try to lean towards the 1750-2k at most levels because things feel a bit more "in balance" in that range. YMMV though.

At 'Ard Boyz level it is less broken, not moreso. The constraint is the d3 units given scout. d3 is not very much, and as army sizes increase, d3 units becomes proportionately less of the points total.

At 1500 pts, if all you have is 3 Long Fang squads for longer-than-12"-shooting, then a potential 3 Dread Knights and Mordrack with Terminators all showing up T1 to wipe out your Long Fangs is pretty bad. You lose at least 420 pts worth of stuff, or almost 1/3 of your list, before you go. Your remaining 1080 pts are also stuck fighting 1,000 pts in its deployment zone while an additional 500 pts, or 50% of your force, advance towards you.

At 2500 points, though, the alpha strike is still probably limited to killing the same threshold (or similar) as DKs are not actually great in the assault, and can only reliably take down relatively weak units (so not Tcav, no Loganwing squad, etc). You've lost 420 pts again, but now that's less than 20% of your army gone, and your 2080 pts is fighting only 25% more of its number, not 50% more.

It's not overpowered at all. Good players have been using screening units for a while vs. demovet drop, Tropic Thunder, scout biker blitz, LSS missile, Shrike inflltration Terminators, and so on-- the same tactics should be able to defend against Dreadknight shunt blitz. Keep in mind also that one GKGM only provides d3 instances of the Grand Strategy, so being able to do 2+ Dreadknight blitzes will not always be possible.

There is one notable difference, though, in that DK are jump troops and so can leap over screens. Even if you really pack models in there, Mordrack and GKTs provides nice synergy with DKs in their ability to show up T1 and reliably dakka down most of a screening unit, especially the cheap crap screens like Kroot.

sourclams wrote:At 'Ard Boyz level it is less broken, not moreso. The constraint is the d3 units given scout. d3 is not very much, and as army sizes increase, d3 units becomes proportionately less of the points total.

At 1500 pts, if all you have is 3 Long Fang squads for longer-than-12"-shooting, then a potential 3 Dread Knights and Mordrack with Terminators all showing up T1 to wipe out your Long Fangs is pretty bad. You lose at least 420 pts worth of stuff, or almost 1/3 of your list, before you go. Your remaining 1080 pts are also stuck fighting 1,000 pts in its deployment zone while an additional 500 pts, or 50% of your force, advance towards you.

At 2500 points, though, the alpha strike is still probably limited to killing the same threshold (or similar) as DKs are not actually great in the assault, and can only reliably take down relatively weak units (so not Tcav, no Loganwing squad, etc). You've lost 420 pts again, but now that's less than 20% of your army gone, and your 2080 pts is fighting only 25% more of its number, not 50% more.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, at lower points levels the alpha strike is so much of your list that you're semi-hamstrung by it. At Ard boyz levels, you could take a second grandmaster for another D3 scouting units, and will have much more on the field pressing your opponent since you have (after DK's + Mordrak) 1700 points left. Your opponent also has many more units on the board typically, so it becomes much harder to bubble wrap everything you need to, or to spread out to avoid the situation turning into a chain reaction of a train wreck.

Looking at in percentages, I can see what you're saying, but I don't see it playing out that way in all likelihood.

Fetterkey wrote:It's not overpowered at all. Good players have been using screening units for a while vs. demovet drop, Tropic Thunder, scout biker blitz, LSS missile, Shrike inflltration Terminators, and so on-- the same tactics should be able to defend against Dreadknight shunt blitz. Keep in mind also that one GKGM only provides d3 instances of the Grand Strategy, so being able to do 2+ Dreadknight blitzes will not always be possible.

But this is my opinion on it at the end of the day as well. There are ways to defend against this strategy, and it's not that new of a trick. "Leaping" over screens isn't too likely, since there usually isn't room behind a screen and before the target to fit a gigantic DK base (same one as the trygon I believe?).

And if Mordrak shows up to Dakka a screen, he's dead as a doornail the next turn. Mordrak, in order to be really effective, need to DS right next to a piece of terrain, then jog in and make use of his stealthed 3+ cover save. Standing out in the open is just 5 termies to kill and 1 hq, in exchange for firing off some storm bolters (In the actual printed GK, mordraks unit lost 90% of the options for guns/weapons if you haven't seen it yet).

I hear my tau crying already...

Technically from what I've read, there is nothing that dis-allows you from doing this. So it's completely legal.

i would say the Dreadknight cannot make the Shunt during the Scout move as the scout move isn't "During the Game"

he could scout and get a 1st turn assault because of moving like Jump Infantry or shunt 1st turn for some nasty shooting options on side armor or exposed enemy units.

Grey Templar wrote:i would say the Dreadknight cannot make the Shunt during the Scout move as the scout move isn't "During the Game"

he could scout and get a 1st turn assault because of moving like Jump Infantry or shunt 1st turn for some nasty shooting options on side armor or exposed enemy units.

So let me get this right.

The feel the game hasent started even though you (or your oppoennt) are declaring the use of USR's and moving models around the table accordingly.

Right.