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Alright so i've been playing at my FLGS for some time now. After I was getting some painting tips from one of the staff earlier this week he mentioned of a veterans tournament coming up. I told him i'd be interested and his comment was 'You're a good player but you don't have any competitve lists, do you think you could pose a challenge?'. Now to any 40k player thats a dig. I asked him why he thought that since i've a list i've been running for some time with good success. He said 'well you've storm troopers in there for one'. Its always my stormies taking the abuse. Long story short I challenged him today and won against his Raven Wing. He allowed me to enter and I turned it down =p

I want to discuss the general consensus on Storm troopers. I personally would go as far as saying that they are one of the most effective units in my list (dependant on terrain).

Now the main advantage to the Storm Troopers over Veterans are the special rules they get to take. The thing to point out that these rules are why you take Stomies over Vets in the first place. If you take them, USE THEM! I've seen players running stormies around in chimera. You pay a whopping ammount for Stormies to get these abilities yet you're using them like an expensive, under equiped Vet squad!

So rule one, 'Behind Enemy Lines'

This is the main rule I use and it's the one I find gets the most use from my stormies. I take a full 10 man unit with two plasma guns. Now a unit like this can take on tactical squads if they get first turn and sometimes even if they don't. If you have dense terrain you can hide in woods, buildings ect to get up the board from the word go. This means i'm having an effect on my opponant from turn 1. They can avoid them and go around which leaves the stormies to either take on the troops left at the deployment line or take on the enemys attack from the rear. Either of these is a HUGE advantage since its usually heavy weapons left at the deployment line. If you attack the rear then you split the opponants force by forcing them to fight on two fronts which is a big no-no. If the enemy decide not to avoid them and dispatch a unit to take them out they have to catch them first. Don't underestimate the advantage that brings. They can send a reletively common troop unit like a tact squad after them which you can kill by moving up and getting the first shots down (you do have assault weapons you know) or they can send more units / elite units after them. This is even better. You can give them the run around for a few turns which stops their best troops going after the rest of your army. AND! if you play it right you can still pop out of cover and gun down some troops or stragglers from the main attack. What you've done there is buy yourself time which gives your guns more concentrated firepower on the main assault, prevented the enemies squads taking objectives or taking out your main guns for a few turns and you still do the damage you took the storm troopers to do. You also get pinning for your first round of shooting but that only happens once in a blue moon but its nice when it does.

Why can't vets do this?

Well for starters the vets need to get into position. That'll usually mean some form of transport. Thats extra points on the points your trying to save. The vehicle also treat difficult terrain as dangerous right? So you can either run the risk of immobilisation or risk getting shot up before you get to a good vantage point. Positioning and speed is everything with this tactic and vets are slower and riskier than storm troopers. Second, the vets don't bring as much firepower. You get x6 plasma gun shots, x7 if you upgrade the sergeant and 12 lasgun shots at 12''. So you have 6 or 7 potent shots. The storm troopers will get x4 plasma gun shots and x5 for the pistol. A difference of x2 potent plasma shots. But then the hotshot lasguns get 14 shots which ignore armour saves for even MEQ's. So do you prefer x2 plasma gun shots? or 14 lasgun shots which ignore armour saves? I know which I prefer.

Rule two, 'Airbourne assault'

So this is where a good old suicide unit comes into play. Keep the squad small, a five man unit. Take x2 melta guns and deep strike by the enemies biggest tank. It can also work by taking plasma's and dropping them by the enemies HQ or leaders. That really upsets them. Deepstrikings risky and this tactic won't always pay off but when it does you feel a little spark inside knowing a cheap suicide unit just put a huge dent in the enemies points. It's a simple idea thats been around since deepstrike so I won't go further.

Why can't vets do this?

Vets can't deepstrike and have no options which they could use to perform this type of mission. The best they could get is a Valkyrie transport to get them up the board. This puts them at risk since they could get shot down en route. Also you've taken a 100pts valk for a suicide unit. Is it just me or does that not seem like the best of choices? Even with the Valk they'll arrive later. If you want melta vets or plasma vets in chimera of Valks then theres no reason you can't take a suicide D/S storm trooper unit too.

Rule 3, 'Reconnaissance'

Now this is the rule I use least but works perfectly fine and comes with a nice little advantage. The scouts rule allows you a free move, BUT! It also transfers this rule to any dedicated transport the unit is deployed in. Now you could use this to get a free chimera for another unit or you could use it as transport to get the Storm troopers upto some cover. This tactic is much like the first one but where as before you started already in a good position, you get a transport to get you there and the 'move through cover rule'. This allows for some pretty nifty hit and runs. You can go into the woods and fire out to finish off a damaged unit or one thats falling behind.....or back =p If your opponant sends units after you to take out what is really a minor threat, you can out run them through the cover, giving you chance to set up a trap or move to a better position. If you decide to do this and are considering the chimera transport ask yourself whether you need the unit at all. This is the one rule where I feel a vet squad will do better than the Storm troopers when you look at the costs. The storm troopers still come out on top in terms of movement and firepower but you will pay a lot of points for this and in most games it won't make much difference to decide the outcome.

Why can't vets do this better?

Its a personal preferance. If there is available cover to make this rule truly useful then why not just use the 'Behind enemy lines' rule in the first place and skip the transport and the time it takes to get into position? If you do want to use this kind of tactic then take vets. While they won't move through cover as fast to escape the enemy, they will have a better damage output since they can take a heavy weapon. You only want to take up a nice position and use it as a firing point, don't keep moving if you don't have to. If you do move it had better be because you have run out of targets. There are time when you play in jungles or dense forests. DO use the storm troopers. The added speed on top of the vets can be a game winner when used well.

So lets look at some other points about storm troopers. The first is that they look freaking cool. The old models look like the British SAS and i'm a bit of a patriot. The new models look pretty awesome too. The second point is that storm troopers can take on standard tactical squads one on one and win. Its a nice role reversal on those marine players. The hotshot lasgun and carapace armour means that you get a save from his boltgun, he does get a save from yours. The balistic skills are equal too. The only downside is you need a 5 to wound. So he needs a 3/3 to hit and wound and you get a 4+ save, You get a 3/5 with no save for him. Out of ten marines against 10 stormies the chances of getting a kill are thus:

Marines 20 shots within 12' - average of 13.32 hits
13.32 hits - average of 8.87 wounds
8.87 wounds against a 4+ save - Average of 4.43 kills

Stormies fire 20 shots within 12' - Average of 13.32 hits
13.32 hits - average of 4.43 wounds
4.43 wouns no save - 4.43 kills

As you can see they're spot on equal in this situation. BUT! generally speaking you should get the advantage. If you stay our of LOS and wait until they're in 18'' range or better yet 12'' before you move out into a firing position you can get the first turn. If you don't then get some practice. Both models work out at 16points but you get frag and crack grenades for free and your special rule. Today against my GW foe they took out a tact squad using my first tactic and decimated most of a second. Unfortunatly his command unit lent the tact squad a hand but I got my points back and took out a plasma gun and two missile launchers which marine players can't afford to lose.

Admittedly these tactics won't be for everyone but they are competitive tactics if you learn how to use them. A lot of people will say that these tactics fill a very niche role but consider the last battle you had. Was there cover up the board that could block LOS? Thats all you need.

So has anyone else got some nice tactics? Any thoughts on how to use them? Or why don't you use them?

I agree. That people compare vets and stormtroopers is SO old by now, it's actually just obnoxious. Yes, they were basically the same in the old codex. No, they're nothing alike now.

Vets are troops that have a higher concentration of special weapons per model.

Stormies are a harassment unit that allows you to show up out of nowhere and disrupt your opponent's plans.

Way different roles.

Those who think a list is uncompetitive because you include harassment units is strange. Those who think a list is uncompetitive just because it includes stormtroopers deserve to be booed.

I'm clicking the dislike button for you Ailaros. Why? Because Dis....I like

Always worth taking a look at "received wisdom" and seeing if it really holds true.

I do think Storm Troopers can be nasty in some situations, but the issue that really leaps out with them is cost. 10 Storm Troopers with 2 Plasmaguns is 195pts. A similarly-equipped Veteran squad is only 115, and Scoring. STs can Infiltrate, but as you noted, Vets can move forward in a Chimera. The Chimera is certainly not infallible, and can be stopped, but OTOH it also protects them from shooting, can act as mobile terrain, can tank shock, and can shoot at things on its own. And the Plasma Vets + Chimera combo is still 25pts cheaper than the Stormies. And Scoring.

Deceiver wrote:So lets look at some other points about storm troopers. The first is that they look freaking cool. The old models look like the British SAS and i'm a bit of a patriot. The new models look pretty awesome too.

This is a point not to be disregarded. Of course, you could also use those models to represent your Veterans and get the best of both worlds.

Deceiver wrote:The second point is that storm troopers can take on standard tactical squads one on one and win. Its a nice role reversal on those marine players. The hotshot lasgun and carapace armour means that you get a save from his boltgun, he does get a save from yours. The balistic skills are equal too. The only downside is you need a 5 to wound. So he needs a 3/3 to hit and wound and you get a 4+ save, You get a 3/5 with no save for him. Out of ten marines against 10 stormies the chances of getting a kill are thus:

Marines 20 shots within 12' - average of 13.32 hits
13.32 hits - average of 8.87 wounds
8.87 wounds against a 4+ save - Average of 4.43 kills

Stormies fire 20 shots within 12' - Average of 13.32 hits
13.32 hits - average of 4.43 wounds
4.43 wouns no save - 4.43 kills

As you can see they're spot on equal in this situation. BUT! generally speaking you should get the advantage. If you stay in cover he'll have to come closer to get you since you can't fire 6'' into cover. If you wait until they're in 18'' range or better yet 12'' before you move towards the cover edge you can get the first turn. If you don't then get some practice. Both models work out at 16points but you get frag and crack grenades for free and your special rule. Today against my GW foe they took out a tact squad using my first tactic and decimated most of a second. Unfortunatly his command unit lent the tact squad a hand but I got my points back and took out a plasma gun and two missile launchers which marine players can't afford to lose.

I'm not entirely sold on this math. Bear in mind that 4+ cover is very common in 5th edition. If the SM squad uses cover, they get the exact same save you do, and all of a sudden you're killing half the models they are again. Not even taking into account Gets Hot killing some of your own guys.

And what was that bit about "can't fire 6" into cover"? Are you thinking of 4th or 3rd edition?

I swear by the 5 man deep strikers with melta/plasma backed up by an astropath. To do the same job with veterans costs twice the price and a fast attack slot, not to mention there is no guarantee that they will get to the target in one piece.

I think a lot of people just jump straight at veterans and chimeras/vendettas without considering other options. Say my force was entirely infantry, the stormtroopers would be a very good addition to give reach without vehicles. Or they are a good way to add some more drop troops if you already have three vendettas.

This question comes up a lot and I am suprised that "stormtroopers are bad" can still be considered a consensus if every time it does there is a pretty balanced debate about the topic.

I like the idea of the DSing option better than the Infiltrating option, definitely.

Mahnnanin, My math hammers not perfect =p Its a close enough call for my piece of mind though. Besides, with careful postioning you can deny the enemy a cover save. The fact your infiltrating gives you the chance to get the best possible firing lanes which preferably deny cover. It's not always 100% effective since the set up of terrain isn't always favourable but it does really help.

As for the cover 6'' it's 4th ed. Theres a jungle board set up we play frequently at the FLGS and made a house rule to stay with the 4th ed 6''. We did it because its fair to say such terrain would be so overgrown you wouldn't be able to get a good view of the target other than some moving bushes or what not. I'll change that.

Deceiver I like your break downs I'm gonna have to look into stormies I was thinking of posting a thread titled "IG elites anything alive in there???" so now I think you've answered my question thanks

Right, I also agree, airborne assault is far and away the best stormie ability. It lets you basically pretend you're marbo for twice the cost, but with 4 plasma or 2 melta shots (plus all those hellguns which are situationally useful).

Infiltrating stormies and chimera vets may have mobility, but airborne assault permits you to shoot at your opponent with NO chance for them to shoot your unit first. That's something vets can't do. Well, not without Harker, but he's much worse than airborne assault stormies.

I hate and love deepstrike it's soo fickle I've had close calls so close it was down to the centimeters lol. But I digress I don't have the dex in front of me but how many special weapons can they take? I might have to swap out a troop choice for them for my next tourney in 3 days lol

Stormies only get x2 special weapons but they do get increase ap for the hotshot lasguns. I'd advise not using them for the tourny until you've practised with them. Storm troopers arn't everyones cup of tea.

Good summary, big D. I would add that I think having a chimera just gives them even more options at the start of every game. Being able to choose your SO at deployment means that if you're going with Rule 1 or 2, you just lend the boat out or use it on is own. If the tactical situation (terrain/opponent/mission) warrants Recon, you've got a transport option. You can move up to cover like you suggest, or get some serious first round threat range out of embarked plas/melta. The other thing is that having a boat makes the Outflanking option better as well, what with the increased protection, mobility and firepower.

How many ST units do you guys usually play with, and at what point levels? I'm up to 2000 points with my heavy infantry company (hybrid - heavy weapon platoons with armoured support), and I'm thinking of adding some gloryboys. I really want 2x 5 man melta, 1x 10 man plasma, and I think I will go for it at 3000 points. For 2500 I think I want to spend some points elsewhere, so I'm thinking just the two melta squads. It seems like you'd want two, at least at 1500 or so, just to make sure the job gets done. You guys ever run just one melta squad?

Storm Troopers have served me well. I initially took them for fluff reasons more than anything else (they are Inquisitorial Storm Troopers to go with my "Inquisitor"), but they have delivered. I find it worth the points to have a unit with decent firepower that will arrive where you need it, usually when you need it, with the aid of an Astropath.

murdog wrote:
How many ST units do you guys usually play with, and at what point levels? I'm up to 2000 points with my heavy infantry company (hybrid - heavy weapon platoons with armoured support), and I'm thinking of adding some gloryboys. I really want 2x 5 man melta, 1x 10 man plasma, and I think I will go for it at 3000 points. For 2500 I think I want to spend some points elsewhere, so I'm thinking just the two melta squads. It seems like you'd want two, at least at 1500 or so, just to make sure the job gets done. You guys ever run just one melta squad?

I am still tinkering. Last night in a 1500 point battle I brought one 5 man melta squad, and one 7 man plasma squad. I found that at 1500 points they took away a bit too much from my troops, and in fact, all of my troops were wiped out during the game while the Storm Troopers were unscathed along with my Inquisitor (Straken) and his squad. A few more troops may have been good, yet the glory boys did their job arriving in turn two. The game was against Mech Eldar so they were ALL in my backfield at that point, but it was great to drop the ST exactly where I needed them to take down some pesky walkers (meltas) and weaken the Farseer's squad then chase the last remaining enemy troop choice off the table (plasmas). I believe that I mis-used them and should have used "Behind Enemy Lines" instead of "Airborne Assault" given the enemy I was facing, but even while mishandling them, they still were very effective.

They certainly don't warrant the hate they get. I sometimes wonder if the haters judge them just by reading the codex, but without ever actually using them.

The problem is that most people are too quick to discount the special rules.

"Why would I want a 105 point deepstriking melta unit when I could just shoot them from across the board?"

My response is always, "Because, sometimes that's what the job calls for." It's hard to wipe out a vehicle with ordinance. Even with the "roll two, take the higher" rule. Every penetrating hit still only nets you a 33% chance of destruction. As far as I'm concerned, for a lot of targets (land raiders, falcons), that's the only outcome that matters. That's why I always bring melta stormies. They're for things that need dead ASAP.

As a great dakkaite once said ''IG players are like kids with too much candy they whine about what candy is best''

Stormies actually play the role in 5th ed that Vets used to play in 4th ed.

Minimum squad size, deep strike, max special weapons, suicide unit.

It is unfortunate that they're terrible in any other role, however. I would have loved to field 30 BS4 carapace armor in an anti-troops capacity. At Marine costs, though? Stick that in your ear. I'll just ally in Sisters for cheaper, better models.

sourclams wrote:It is unfortunate that they're terrible in any other role, however. I would have loved to field 30 BS4 carapace armor in an anti-troops capacity. At Marine costs, though? Stick that in your ear. I'll just ally in Sisters for cheaper, better models.

I'm actually just kind of sad that the guard didn't get a special HQ option that allowed you to field stormtrooper squads as troops.

Sure, stormtroopers are expensive, but having your entire guard army be basically sternguard, but cheaper and with poorer stats would be a hell of a thing.

Storm Troopers are one of those units that bad players just don't get.

Previous edition players set in their ways and newer players who can't see who games are actually won only look at their cost vs killing power and declare them bad.

Fortunately, 5th edition missions aren't won by being cost effective.

Your summary of why Storm Troopers are good is spot on.

I'm going to agree with the current assessment on Stormies here. The are a great option to disrupt any opponents plans, and they are flexible. Could they be better? Sure, but those arguments are rooted in the last codex when they could be taken as troops. TBH, I was a bit disappointed when the new codex came out and they didn't make a special character or something to make them count as troops or scoring. But I digress.
As a matter of fact though, I will be taking a squad of them for the next tourney, and I will surely stand up for them when I get scoffed at.

You're spot-on! I arm my stormtroopers with the best special weapon for the job(usually meltas) and drop them on troublesome targets. Space Marine Devastators? No problem. Tanks advancing? Get some meltas on that rear armor. They usually end up dying, but not before making up their points.

i've only ever played against stormtroopers and from what i've seen their great.

normally their used as infiltrators against me and with AP3 and a pinning test on the first turn they annoy the crap outta me. I've seen them destroy close combat squads and for five turns i watch my army fall apart in a hail of Leman Russ shells.

I think Vets are a better option for normal Troops choices mainly because of their BS4. Keep them close enough to a Command platoon and you still get to issue orders.

Stormtroopers also have BS4.


Having said that, I find it hillarious that CSM meltacide is "awesome" while Stormtroopers "suck".

BS4 is overrated in my opinion..I prefer more guns than BS4 anytime, which is why I use platoons...

I have used ST around 3 times I think, and they are decent disruption units. In the future I will use them more competitively (together with ogryns) just to prove a point....

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Stormtroopers also have BS4.


Having said that, I find it hillarious that CSM meltacide is "awesome" while Stormtroopers "suck".

CSM 'meltacide' is, without a doubt, superior to what storm troopers can pull off.

A min cost storm trooper suicide squad is 105 points with two meltaguns.

A min cost Termicide squad is 105 points with three combi meltas. They're almost universally run with a chain fist, however, so up that to 120.

The one-and-done nature of combis isn't very significant because the entire role of the squad is to drop down, melta a single model, and die on your opponent's turn. Even though the storm troopers can shoot for more turns, odds are very low of them actually living long enough to do so. Front-loading of the offensive is then decidedly better, so Terminators have a 150% advantage in firepower for the one crucial turn.

The survivability advantage is obviously with the Terminators, as is the CC advantage. The Terminators are a valid threat to anything but dedicated assault units, the stormies die to anything but the weakest of fodder units.

By all means, discuss the merits of Stormicide, but Termicide outclasses them on a unit for unit basis in nearly every way.

sourclams wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Stormtroopers also have BS4.


Having said that, I find it hillarious that CSM meltacide is "awesome" while Stormtroopers "suck".

CSM 'meltacide' is, without a doubt, superior to what storm troopers can pull off.

A min cost storm trooper suicide squad is 105 points with two meltaguns.

A min cost Termicide squad is 105 points with three combi meltas. They're almost universally run with a chain fist, however, so up that to 120.

The one-and-done nature of combis isn't very significant because the entire role of the squad is to drop down, melta a single model, and die on your opponent's turn. Even though the storm troopers can shoot for more turns, odds are very low of them actually living long enough to do so. Front-loading of the offensive is then decidedly better, so Terminators have a 150% advantage in firepower for the one crucial turn.

The survivability advantage is obviously with the Terminators, as is the CC advantage. The Terminators are a valid threat to anything but dedicated assault units, the stormies die to anything but the weakest of fodder units.

By all means, discuss the merits of Stormicide, but Termicide outclasses them on a unit for unit basis in nearly every way.

And they should...they are elite evil marines after all..no contest and comparison should be made....BUT...

Stormicide is the closest thing IG can get without having to resort to emergency jumps out of skimmers, or hiring the mysterious entity who looks like stallone. Thus, they have a purpose....besides, I think it hurts more emotionally to lose 3 chaos termies than 5 storm troopers even though the pointage is the same...

Delete

Nurglitch wrote:Isn't that a 50% increase in firepower on the turn they arrive? You know, what with 3 being 50% more than 2...

Also, Stormicide? Isn't there an even more cringe-inducing witticism with which we can label a Storm Trooper squad deep striking with Melta Guns?

"poor b!@#$%^ds"???????

Seriously though, judicious use of deep striking units may help mitigate their obliteration the next opponent turn. Even Sly Marbo has managed to end up alive in some of my games.

sourclams wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Stormtroopers also have BS4.


Having said that, I find it hillarious that CSM meltacide is "awesome" while Stormtroopers "suck".

CSM 'meltacide' is, without a doubt, superior to what storm troopers can pull off.

A min cost storm trooper suicide squad is 105 points with two meltaguns.

A min cost Termicide squad is 105 points with three combi meltas. They're almost universally run with a chain fist, however, so up that to 120.

The one-and-done nature of combis isn't very significant because the entire role of the squad is to drop down, melta a single model, and die on your opponent's turn. Even though the storm troopers can shoot for more turns, odds are very low of them actually living long enough to do so. Front-loading of the offensive is then decidedly better, so Terminators have a 150% advantage in firepower for the one crucial turn.

The survivability advantage is obviously with the Terminators, as is the CC advantage. The Terminators are a valid threat to anything but dedicated assault units, the stormies die to anything but the weakest of fodder units.

By all means, discuss the merits of Stormicide, but Termicide outclasses them on a unit for unit basis in nearly every way.

You forgot to take into account the reroll that stormtroopers get on the scatter dice for deepstriking. This can make the difference between getting within 6" or not. Also, you can take more risks with their placement. This probably puts the two units on an even footing, but then they should be for even points.

I agree with Trickstick -- the ability to reroll your deepstrike dice is not to be underestimated. It allows for very aggressive placement when you need it.

Yup, assuming that you will get within 6" is a gamble even with the reroll, I would not like to try it without.