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Why did you never start or alternately stop playing/collecting Heavy Gear?
Never heard of it... what's Heavy Gear?
Don't like the mech minis genre in general.
Don't like the look of Heavy Gear specifically (art, minis, etc).
Don't like the price of Heavy Gear (books, minis, etc).
Don't like the mechanics of the game/silhouette system.
Don't like edition changes in Heavy Gear every 2-3 years.
Couldn't find any opponents to play against.
Couldn't find any of the products locally to buy.
Other (please elaborate below)
Inadequate support from DP9 (expansions, communication with fans, FAQs, etc).
Power creep and unequal efficacy between factions.
Poor resource management (playtesters, freelancers, website, etc) by DP9.

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Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

Replicating those curves would have increased the time spent on the model by a couple of orders of magnitude, I would suspect.

   
Made in re
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot






 Nurglitch wrote:
Replicating those curves would have increased the time spent on the model by a couple of orders of magnitude, I would suspect.


Yeah, that would have taken, you know, actual efforts ?
"Meh, why bother ?" has been DP9's MO for years.

Virtus in extremis 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Or they could have just taken a stock jaguar chassie, and plopped a new set of weapons/backpack and be done with it.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Panama

They will never be like in the tactical (large scale) era.

It will probably will use the current jaguar and add the weapons, just like the longbow jager.

I have to agree that the old models I have seeing in pictures are somewhat better in look and more faithful to the drawings (specially like the command jager German helmet head), but they would be prohibitively expensive today.

This forum is like a "just talk thrash of dp9 forum", it's sad, I came here to see what the old boys where playing and what new things are they doing with the old material. Not much it seems.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Nurglitch wrote:
Replicating those curves would have increased the time spent on the model by a couple of orders of magnitude, I would suspect.


The model looks really cheap and rough, so maybe because the work they're showing was really quick and lazy?

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






 Pointman wrote:
They will never be like in the tactical (large scale) era.

It will probably will use the current jaguar and add the weapons, just like the longbow jager.

I have to agree that the old models I have seeing in pictures are somewhat better in look and more faithful to the drawings (specially like the command jager German helmet head), but they would be prohibitively expensive today.

This forum is like a "just talk thrash of dp9 forum", it's sad, I came here to see what the old boys where playing and what new things are they doing with the old material. Not much it seems.


I'm sorry that you feel that way but I don't know why you'd think that this would be an overall positive thread TBH. We have a bunch of folks who post here specifically because they can honestly discuss the game/company/IP.. something that they can't do either on the official forums nor on Brandon's facebook group (since Robert is in control effectively of both). The original purpose of this thread was to give constructive criticism as to why folks aren't playing the game in conjunction with the release of the then "pre-alpha" nuBlitz rules years ago. I started this thread because my constructive posts were disappearing from the official forum announcement thread (and, no, they weren't insulting or unnecessarily negative but rather a frank discussion of the problems at the time). Others who post here do so because they were banned from the official forum like Albertorius who committed the thoughtcrime of posting that he only backed the kickstarter for $1 iirc. I stopped posting on the official forums specifically because of angry trash talk from flash in the pan new posters who would insult long time players who had seen the same cycles several times before and were told to just shut up and "believe"/"hope" as if Heavy Gear fandom was some sort of religious cult in response to both problems with the rules like missing models/loadouts as well as actions of the company like initially refusing to replace miscasts on the first kickstarter. Just like always, those same die hard new fans stopped posting like clockwork after 6-12 months and us "trash talkers" are still here expressing interest in the IP. YMMV.

That said, I don't believe it's just trash talk here. When DP9 does something right, people who post here say so as well (see my comment about the Nemesis Jaguar)... it's just that DP9 doing something right isn't as frequent as doing something wrong. Regardless, you're obviously welcome to post positive things here as well and I'm curious to see the response.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/15 19:05:50


   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Panama

I don't expect an "overall positive thread", just a little surprised it is as if not a single day have passed.

Maybe I was expecting the old player base to be playing something Heavy Gear related and only seeing the same snarky comments was kind of a downer. It have being what, 4 years already?

It's fine if you want to vent at every misstep of DP9 but is not what I was expecting, just a personal opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
About posting something positive, it is hard to say what may be considered positive, many in this forum don't like the direction the game is taking, so most of what may be considering positive will not be.

for example, I see more people playing the game and into demos than a few years ago (during the great exodus) and the way the Rooster guy is handling the new rules are very good. yes, many things are not 2ed equivalent but the current game play very well (I still miss the detection rules, though.).

What you think of the new version of the rules?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/15 19:43:22


 
   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

 HudsonD wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Replicating those curves would have increased the time spent on the model by a couple of orders of magnitude, I would suspect.


Yeah, that would have taken, you know, actual efforts ?
"Meh, why bother ?" has been DP9's MO for years.

I've been informed that time is money where artists have been concerned. Mainly by the artists that have quoted and billed me. At some point you have to look at how much value that time adds to the product, how much you can afford, and it's never enough. As I understand it DP9 is back to being a one man show relying on contractors, which makes scheduling difficult as well, and there's a cost to that on top of what you pay the artists. I don't think they have the market, and hence the cash-flow, to do better. I mean, how much would you spend to get the 3D model looking like the artwork?

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Pointman wrote:
What you think of the new version of the rules?


IMO, despite being somewhat less 80s than they were, they're still way too 80s. Post-2010, games should be a lot faster and smoother, with rapid resolution and less memorization required. The Pod has only taken baby steps to whittle down a few rough corners, where I took a hatchet to the thing.

   
Made in ca
Trustworthy Shas'vre






 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Replicating those curves would have increased the time spent on the model by a couple of orders of magnitude, I would suspect.


The model looks really cheap and rough, so maybe because the work they're showing was really quick and lazy?


Possibly. There's a lot of non-rounded corners on the mini, where the original art had the corners rounded off. The engine cowling should be broader and shorter and at a less acute angle.

There were the same problems in getting the first KS plastics looking right, it took several passes of feedback from the community (and still wasn't ideal), despite the 3D artists having access to a wealth of art and several generations worth of miniatures. But at the same time RAFM minis looked different from TAC minis which looked different from Blitz minis, so some NuBlitz minis looking different is just par for the course.

Each generation of miniatures has had its own issues. The RAFM era rocket pods were garbage, for example, while TAC guns were realistically small but they ended up looking puny as a result after the RAFM era's chunkier guns. But TAC era rockets brought in the rocket pod nubs, which were great. Phil's Blitz minis were probably the best generation overall, but Black Mambas lost some their endearing chubbyness.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Panama

The newer plastic NuCoal and Peace River looks much better than South and North plastics, specially the south, the south really got the short stick in the past kickstarter, but Caprice is much better now thanks to it.


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






 Pointman wrote:
I don't expect an "overall positive thread", just a little surprised it is as if not a single day have passed.

Maybe I was expecting the old player base to be playing something Heavy Gear related and only seeing the same snarky comments was kind of a downer. It have being what, 4 years already?

It's fine if you want to vent at every misstep of DP9 but is not what I was expecting, just a personal opinion.


In your opinion, what subjectively positive things have occurred in the last few years that we should be happy about? The rpg whose creators just threw up their hands and gave up after years of no real progress leaving backers with only expensive patches to show for their pledges? Or the HGA pc game in a genre that no one asked for that most customers haven't been able to play since late 2017 and whose creators have publicly stated that they're NOT game developers anymore but instead cryptocurrency/blockchain farmers? The plastics kickstarter that had by most counts mediocre results and whose rules have failed to ignite widespread interest in the game? The loss of effectively half the company and DP9 retreating from any real presence at the largest convention they go to for multiple years and the foreseeable future? The firesales from prominent independent retailers who used to sell DP9 prices both in NA and the EU combined with the ever present lack of retailers stocking the products locally leaving one full priced option for purchasing the full lineup? Those are the developments that I've noticed over the last couple of years. Am I missing a veritable fountain of positive news somewhere?



About posting something positive, it is hard to say what may be considered positive, many in this forum don't like the direction the game is taking, so most of what may be considering positive will not be.

for example, I see more people playing the game and into demos than a few years ago (during the great exodus) and the way the Rooster guy is handling the new rules are very good. yes, many things are not 2ed equivalent but the current game play very well (I still miss the detection rules, though.).

What you think of the new version of the rules?


I don't think any of us excluding Ashley have actually read the current trial rules of even the prior reversed iteration. I don't have any opinion as the last ones I read through were the 2016 version and even that was a cursory skimming without playing iirc.

If there eventually is positive practical news regarding HG, I expect that there will be rejoicing in the thread (admittedly not unanimous though). What won't cut the mustard (to use an old idiom) is wishful thinking and hopeful plans for the future. I can't speak for anyone else but I doubt that I'm the only one who is looking for positive practical results and not just the vague potential of them.

Now if you excuse me, I have to go shoo away some damn teenagers off my lawn...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 John Prins wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Replicating those curves would have increased the time spent on the model by a couple of orders of magnitude, I would suspect.


The model looks really cheap and rough, so maybe because the work they're showing was really quick and lazy?


Possibly. There's a lot of non-rounded corners on the mini, where the original art had the corners rounded off. The engine cowling should be broader and shorter and at a less acute angle.

There were the same problems in getting the first KS plastics looking right, it took several passes of feedback from the community (and still wasn't ideal), despite the 3D artists having access to a wealth of art and several generations worth of miniatures. But at the same time RAFM minis looked different from TAC minis which looked different from Blitz minis, so some NuBlitz minis looking different is just par for the course.


While there were obvious design cues simply missed or dismissed as unimportant by both the sculptors and dp9, I suspect there were a fair amount of things that might not be possible with the relatively simple iirc single injection port two piece small molds they could afford. I suspect the results with larger more complex moulds would be different given what we see GW accomplish on a monthly basis.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/15 21:59:49


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

If you look at the 2nd Edition "push-fit" Space Marines, curves aren't impossible, even for a basic mold.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If you look at the 2nd Edition "push-fit" Space Marines, curves aren't impossible, even for a basic mold.


Even the first kickstarter gears IMO are much more complex than those although not much more varied in pose/stiffness unfortunately. I'd rather have awesome looking monopose gears ala the recent 40k character minis that you have to convert yourself but at least look great out of the box than the awkwardly stiff minimal 2d plane pose variety on only a handful of joints in the first plastic gears. Did any plastic gears come out since that initial batch? I haven't followed the subsequent crowd funding campaigns much since the first. I know better posing was supposedly a priority but I don't if that was successes with regard to gears.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Panama

The new NuCoal look a lot better in the 3d models at least.
Still a little stiff the legs but with more and better joints so, maybe more varied possible poses.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/15 22:42:09


 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Pointman wrote:


What you think of the new version of the rules?


You'll get a mix of WTF, and their ok. Which should be surprising because several of the people here wrote them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
 Pointman wrote:
The new NuCoal look a lot better in the 3d models at least.
Still a little stiff the legs but with more and better joints so, maybe more varied possible poses.



While they look better than the N/S plastics, they also still look much worse then the existing metals.

I can understand some loss of detail, but the torsos are the wrong shapes, and the heads are elongated. Though I do think the Jerboas are better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/15 22:59:48


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Mmmpi wrote:
 Pointman wrote:
The new NuCoal look a lot better in the 3d models at least.


While they look better than the N/S plastics, they also still look much worse then the existing metals.


IMO, the metal Chasseur is a vastly superior sculpt compared to the proposed 3-D render: The weight of the curved surfaces and proportions are way off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/15 23:13:11


   
Made in es
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey






 Nurglitch wrote:
Replicating those curves would have increased the time spent on the model by a couple of orders of magnitude, I would suspect.


I do agree, mind, but... well, it's not exactly like they're producing stuff at a breackneck pace anyways, so...
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Arsenic City

 Mmmpi wrote:
They did release the lion and leopard for the north. Unless there are other mountaineering gears that don't have models yet.
For the Northern models, as best I can recall after 4/5 years, the only "existing" statted variants were found in the Army List softcover for 1e/2e/3e but never officially made it into Blitz-era Heavy Gear.
I believe folks could somewhat create the Mountain Grizzly though with various Locked & Loaded swap/option lines in one of the combat groups, as it's pretty much just a Rabid without the reinforced armor and SMS carrying a heavier "grenade" launcher.

Not a clue on what made it into the various incarnations of NuBlitz or subsequent because revamp is fun rulesets thereafter.



After the NuCoal mountain variants it seemed like this was something that every force list afterward had to include (regardless of rules utility), so basically myself & others were left to create "appropriate" variants for multiple models with little previous canon to work off.
Directives from on high were superficial to say the least, other than the rather less than useful "No, that's still not quite what or how I think that model should be." alongside 'Yes, the claws on the Gear-Strider I didn't tell anyone about are climbing gear. Kick ass, right?"

Basically, just like all the fun of changing the Rally Mammoth stats every other day over something like a week or two times however many models ended up with mountain variants in the Lion's Wrath PDF.
Or loadouts for the unnecessary Grizzly variants that AL13N absolutely hated as if the rest of us had a choice but to keep trying to come up with something TPTB liked well enough to let us move on to something that actually needed attention.



 Albertorius wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Replicating those curves would have increased the time spent on the model by a couple of orders of magnitude, I would suspect.
I do agree, mind, but... well, it's not exactly like they're producing stuff at a breackneck pace anyways, so...
I'd be seriously surprised if the original 3D artist for the very first KS, who made the "We can't actually produce in plastic those okay looking models we touted as being what backers will receive." wasn't merely the first in a succession of one-off per project treated as if they were freelancer contractors.

Which actually might explain a good bit of why the models looked so rushed, not just because of time=$$$$ constraints, but also due to a fresh artist having to start from scratch over & over while simultaneously working with/modding files they didn't create.



 warboss wrote:
When DP9 does something right,
Prophet wept, such a heresy as that which spouts out of your rathole has never before been heard!
May you be taken away to swelter & burn upon the cleansing sands I say.

.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/05/16 07:12:33


"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''

"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll

"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9

"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
 
   
Made in es
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey






 Pointman wrote:
I don't expect an "overall positive thread", just a little surprised it is as if not a single day have passed.

Maybe I was expecting the old player base to be playing something Heavy Gear related and only seeing the same snarky comments was kind of a downer. It have being what, 4 years already?

It's fine if you want to vent at every misstep of DP9 but is not what I was expecting, just a personal opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
About posting something positive, it is hard to say what may be considered positive, many in this forum don't like the direction the game is taking, so most of what may be considering positive will not be.

for example, I see more people playing the game and into demos than a few years ago (during the great exodus) and the way the Rooster guy is handling the new rules are very good. yes, many things are not 2ed equivalent but the current game play very well (I still miss the detection rules, though.).

What you think of the new version of the rules?


Well, let's just say that TPTB at DP9 did not exactly spare any expenses souring us (or at least, me) on the IP, so any fondness I have for the game (and more importantly, the setting) comes more from nostalgia than anywhere else. I have not played anything DP9 related except for the HG RPG in years, and the only real point of contact I still have with it is this very thread.

As to The Rooster and the new ruleset, I have no opinion whatsoever. I don't know the guy, and by now I don't have any prospects of playing the HG wargame, so I don't plan on reading it until after its release. But I am not on the market for a new HG wargame anyways, so it doesn't really matter what I might think about it.

What I was interested in was a possible new edition of the RPG, and I was part of Arkrite's crowdfunding effort. That is dead and buried now, and it was mostly a waste of hope, effort and money. Now the rights have gone back to DP9, and I don't expect Robert have the expertise to make it fly, and what little he has said doesn't exactly fill me with hope.

So I've mostly moved on. Greener pastures and all that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/16 07:15:30


 
   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If you look at the 2nd Edition "push-fit" Space Marines, curves aren't impossible, even for a basic mold.

I suspect those were traditionally sculpted rather than done in 3D. It's kind of funny how the former lends itself to curves while the former makes straight lines easier.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




To support DP9 I got 2 KS sets for the original plastics, despite already having a massive Pewter collection of NG/SR/PR gears.

I honestly was expecting the new plastics only to be like those cheap crappy starter battletech mechs you used to get in starter sets and even then I felt let down :(

It was like going from Jess Goodwin's 3rd Ed metal SM Scouts to the Derp-ass no-neck plastic scouts all over again.

I'm a huge Northern fan so of the recent Northern minis I bought up the Lynx and Leopard . I totally skipped the lion, however, because it looked like junk when put up next to a grizzly, kodiak or bear/den mother. The reason was obvious. The Lynx and Leopard were hand-sculpted by Phil while the Lion was a rapid prototype.

Will most likely skip the Nemesis Jaguar sadly.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/16 14:38:06


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Nurglitch wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If you look at the 2nd Edition "push-fit" Space Marines, curves aren't impossible, even for a basic mold.

I suspect those were traditionally sculpted rather than done in 3D. It's kind of funny how the former lends itself to curves while the former makes straight lines easier.


I think it's a function of experience - if you work with curves, have a concept of curves, then you sculpt curves.

   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If you look at the 2nd Edition "push-fit" Space Marines, curves aren't impossible, even for a basic mold.

I suspect those were traditionally sculpted rather than done in 3D. It's kind of funny how the former lends itself to curves while the former makes straight lines easier.


I think it's a function of experience - if you work with curves, have a concept of curves, then you sculpt curves.

Maybe. From the meshes of my Titanomachina models curves are pretty complex. The hexagonal plugs on the arms, by contrast to the rest of the models, are very simple. I got the impressive that editing curved areas was pretty labour intensive on most 3D-sculpting programs.

   
Made in es
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey






 Nurglitch wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If you look at the 2nd Edition "push-fit" Space Marines, curves aren't impossible, even for a basic mold.

I suspect those were traditionally sculpted rather than done in 3D. It's kind of funny how the former lends itself to curves while the former makes straight lines easier.


I think it's a function of experience - if you work with curves, have a concept of curves, then you sculpt curves.

Maybe. From the meshes of my Titanomachina models curves are pretty complex. The hexagonal plugs on the arms, by contrast to the rest of the models, are very simple. I got the impressive that editing curved areas was pretty labour intensive on most 3D-sculpting programs.


Or you use the right tool, like ZBrush, which is one of the most used 3d modelling programs for miniatures AFAIK. Sometimes, what you're doing things with is important.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/16 20:54:59


 
   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

 Albertorius wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If you look at the 2nd Edition "push-fit" Space Marines, curves aren't impossible, even for a basic mold.

I suspect those were traditionally sculpted rather than done in 3D. It's kind of funny how the former lends itself to curves while the former makes straight lines easier.


I think it's a function of experience - if you work with curves, have a concept of curves, then you sculpt curves.

Maybe. From the meshes of my Titanomachina models curves are pretty complex. The hexagonal plugs on the arms, by contrast to the rest of the models, are very simple. I got the impressive that editing curved areas was pretty labour intensive on most 3D-sculpting programs.


Or you use the right tool, like ZBrush, which is one of the most used 3d modelling programs for miniatures AFAIK. Sometimes, what you're doing things with is important.

It is important. Particularly if you're a freelancer and budgeting for a constant flow of work, as well as having time to learn the ins and outs of a piece of software. I'm neither an artist, nor have a funnel of prospective clients that might incentivize a bi-annual license to learn and deploy ZBrush. Blender seems like something I might be able to learn to use, if not utilise, because it is free and open-source. I suspect using Blender is what put my artist into the affordability zone for me.

   
Made in re
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot






Nurglitch wrote:
I've been informed that time is money where artists have been concerned. Mainly by the artists that have quoted and billed me. At some point you have to look at how much value that time adds to the product,(...)

So what you're telling us is that DP9 can't (or doesn't want to) afford putting in the time, effort and money into getting decent sculpts ? Well, yeah.

Albertorius wrote:
Well, let's just say that TPTB at DP9 did not exactly spare any expenses souring us (or at least, me) on the IP, so any fondness I have for the game (and more importantly, the setting) comes more from nostalgia than anywhere else. I have not played anything DP9 related except for the HG RPG in years, and the only real point of contact I still have with it is this very thread.(...)

A rare example of DP9 putting efforts into something

With the main exception of Caprice Mounts that have ended up reasonnably decent, the plastic Gears have been... Pretty lame. They'd have been OK 20 years ago, I guess.

Virtus in extremis 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





The plastic Jerboas look cool (subjective I know), but so far the rest are ok at best.

The real pain were the mis-moulds.

Not from DP9 it self. They sent replacements out pretty quickly. But some of the people on the official forum (most of whom I haven't seen there since) seem to feel that returning a defective product was a betryal of 1980's mini buying. After all, how DARE we insist on unbroken merchandise! A "REAL MAN (tm)" would correct that .5 inch gap with green stuff, a miter saw, a jack hammer and TESTOSTERONE!

Got old a bit fast.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





We always knew NuCoal and Peace River were going to look better. The fair reason would be that they had the benefit of experience, the snarky reason would be that they are the favourite factions of the company.

But, whatever version of a mini you don't like: RAFM, Tac, Phil, NuBlitz? Just call it a Timmins-produced knock-off!
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






 Mmmpi wrote:
The plastic Jerboas look cool (subjective I know), but so far the rest are ok at best.

The real pain were the mis-moulds.

Not from DP9 it self. They sent replacements out pretty quickly. But some of the people on the official forum (most of whom I haven't seen there since) seem to feel that returning a defective product was a betryal of 1980's mini buying. After all, how DARE we insist on unbroken merchandise! A "REAL MAN (tm)" would correct that .5 inch gap with green stuff, a miter saw, a jack hammer and TESTOSTERONE!

Got old a bit fast.


Yup. I mentioned before that it was the final straw for me there and I stopped posting not long after. Robert at least corrected his initial statement relatively quickly to his credit but the Faith Militant though continued their defense of the initial stance.

   
 
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