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What ending you think will be canonical for the Retribution?

I believe that again the Space marines will emerge triumph, again because of the Gabriel Angelos becoming Chapter Master and all...
I would personally love that the ending be Space Marine, Imperial Guard, Eldar mix. All of those 3 races are fighting for a good cause in their own way.

And what do you thing about canonical ending thus far? I think it should be done better, like ending for Medusa V. That each race has it's own ending and it's own gain, not that one faction destroy every other.

So what do you think?

DoW?
I'm hoping IG win but the Blood Ravens manage to preserve their secret...

That the Iosan Elves will be wiped out.

Oh, you meant DOW II: Retribution.

Sorry, got thrown off by the unnecessary the in front of Retribution.

Brother Coa wrote:I would personally love that the ending be Space Marine, Imperial Guard, Eldar mix. All of those 3 races are fighting for a good cause in their own way.

^ This. The forces of order v.s. the forces of disorder!

I would be happy if the csm didn't lose this time. I'm getting pretty pissed at them being part of almost every game in the series and always failing. In the grim darkness of the far future, only the good guys win.

Rynsester wrote:I would be happy if the csm didn't lose this time. I'm getting pretty pissed at them being part of almost every game in the series and always failing. In the grim darkness of the far future, only the good guys win.

What do you expect? With them, all the problems normal marines have (pitiful numbers, hollywood tactics, poor understanding of cover, etc) are exacerbated, with a hefty dose of gibbering insanity and daemons bursting from their skulls thrown in for good measure.

Of course, space marines should never win either, for the reasons given above, and it's the Guard that carries the day with overwhelming numbers of mobile, well-equipped, elite troops...

Rynsester wrote:I would be happy if the csm didn't lose this time. I'm getting pretty pissed at them being part of almost every game in the series and always failing. In the grim darkness of the far future, only the good guys win.

But at what cost? Before Behemot was finally destroyed it consumed hundreds of worlds.
Abbadon has pillaged several Imperial worlds before he was forced to retreat back into the Eye of Terror.
Orks have taken many Imperial lives before they where beaten at Armageddon.

Good guys always win, but their losses are so huge that every victory is always grim.

Meh. *shrugs* Victory is Victory.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
hollywood tactics, poor understanding of cover

Well Warhammer 40000 has few non-logical fighting styles from this:

- Open-field, Napoleonic-style infantry battles with modern or futuristic weapons. ( Imperial Guard holding the line standing and dying )
- Modern armies fighting only with small arms, and no aerial or artillery support. ( Well Lasgun is not a small arms, but I have never seen Imperial earth-to-ground tactical bombers like today's A-10 Thunderbolt )
- Always using More Dakka for anti-armor or anti-air (or against a single, agile target), rather than guided missiles (in a setting that has them, of course). ( normal solders would retreat, or use tactics from Normandy in 1944 to take out an enemy tank. But most of foes in 40k just charge at the tanks )
- In space battles (or using aircraft), failing to consider the third dimension. This is of course to make The Captain look awesome to the Plebs when he averts it. ( But 40k have some sense of realism here, at Kronus you have Imperial and Tau fleets orbit around the planet, each fleet at the opposite side of the planet. Not the case like is Star Wars where 5 ships are enough to blockade an entire planet size or bigger than Earth. )
- Despite having the technology to lock and fire on an enemy beyond visual range, holding off doing so until one can See The Whites Of Their Eyes. Not to mention simply not having BVR (beyond visual range) technology in a setting that has other high-tech weapons and sensors (Minovsky Particles notwithstanding). ( this is totally 40k )
- Any use of obsolete weapons, tactics, or styles of warfare alongside the very weapons and technology that rendered them obsolete (e.g. swords alongside guns, mounted cavalry alongside tanks etc.). Unless the story is set during the transition with realistic results, obviously. ( Like in original DoW intro where SM sergeant have even Heavy Bolter and Dreadnought to hold them at range - he engaged the Orks in melle with knifes!???? )
- Waiting until the last second to do a maneuver when not waiting is far more advantageous. ( as seen in most 40k fighting and larger battles )
- Putting your general in the front lines. At least, so long as him fighting isn't a major part of your strategy. ( Imperial Commanders and General are ALWAYS holding the banner at the first line of defense )
- The use of cover that is either totally useless or downright dangerous. As in "You men stack the barrels of gunpowder and torch oil over there as a breastwork". ( like "out of sandbags? - Use Guardsman, Or "SM are so cool that they don't need cover )

And SM don't need cover. When you are shielded as today's M1 Abrams MBT you surely don't need cover.

Brother Coa wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
hollywood tactics, poor understanding of cover

Well Warhammer 40000 has few non-logical fighting styles from this:

- Open-field, Napoleonic-style infantry battles with modern or futuristic weapons. ( Imperial Guard holding the line standing and dying )

Often portrayed as engaging in trench warfare, occasionally more reasonably portrayed as operating with more modern tactics, not early 19th century "let's stand in rows on an open field in brightly colored uniforms and shoot at each other" warfare.

- Modern armies fighting only with small arms, and no aerial or artillery support. ( Well Lasgun is not a small arms, but I have never seen Imperial earth-to-ground tactical bombers like today's A-10 Thunderbolt )

Artillery, orbital bombardment, gunships...

- Always using More Dakka for anti-armor or anti-air (or against a single, agile target), rather than guided missiles (in a setting that has them, of course). ( normal solders would retreat, or use tactics from Normandy in 1944 to take out an enemy tank. But most of foes in 40k just charge at the tanks )

Anything charging a tank can either take it apart singlehanded, or is trying to take it out with a short range explosive/incendiary.

- In space battles (or using aircraft), failing to consider the third dimension. This is of course to make The Captain look awesome to the Plebs when he averts it. ( But 40k have some sense of realism here, at Kronus you have Imperial and Tau fleets orbit around the planet, each fleet at the opposite side of the planet. Not the case like is Star Wars where 5 ships are enough to blockade an entire planet size or bigger than Earth. )

I don't believe I've seen anything of the sort, aside from battlefleet gothic, which would be constrained by the fact that it's played on a flat surface...

- Despite having the technology to lock and fire on an enemy beyond visual range, holding off doing so until one can See The Whites Of Their Eyes. Not to mention simply not having BVR (beyond visual range) technology in a setting that has other high-tech weapons and sensors (Minovsky Particles notwithstanding). ( this is totally 40k )

Artillery and space combat spring to mind...

- Any use of obsolete weapons, tactics, or styles of warfare alongside the very weapons and technology that rendered them obsolete (e.g. swords alongside guns, mounted cavalry alongside tanks etc.). Unless the story is set during the transition with realistic results, obviously. ( Like in original DoW intro where SM sergeant have even Heavy Bolter and Dreadnought to hold them at range - he engaged the Orks in melle with knifes!???? )

That's mostly a peculiarity of the gameplay, resulting from a need for balance. Almost all of the fluff I've read has mostly made sense in this regard.

- Waiting until the last second to do a maneuver when not waiting is far more advantageous. ( as seen in most 40k fighting and larger battles )

Don't believe I've ever seen this one.

- Putting your general in the front lines. At least, so long as him fighting isn't a major part of your strategy. ( Imperial Commanders and General are ALWAYS holding the banner at the first line of defense )

The only officers on the ground are those meant to be the leaders on the ground (platoon lieutenants and company captains), while the higher ranking officers sit back in their HQ with the strategists, advisers, and other support staff.

- The use of cover that is either totally useless or downright dangerous. As in "You men stack the barrels of gunpowder and torch oil over there as a breastwork". ( like "out of sandbags? - Use Guardsman, Or "SM are so cool that they don't need cover )

With the exception of Space Marines and other tactically impaired factions, not seeing this one either...

And SM don't need cover. When you are shielded as today's M1 Abrams MBT you surely don't need cover.

They also don't wear helmets...

Rynsester wrote:I would be happy if the csm didn't lose this time. I'm getting pretty pissed at them being part of almost every game in the series and always failing. In the grim darkness of the far future, only the good guys win.

Abaddon is a role model for many CSM, and he's a total incompetent loser. No wonder it never works. 13 crusades and no result, congratulations.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Often portrayed as engaging in trench warfare, occasionally more reasonably portrayed as operating with more modern tactics, not early 19th century "let's stand in rows on an open field in brightly colored uniforms and shoot at each other" warfare.

I have seen to many pictures of Guardsman standing or crouching on open field facing charging enemy than getting behind cover.

Artillery, orbital bombardment, gunships...

Very rare to none. I never read in any book, seen in any comic or at any game that Guarrdsman are using radio to call in air support. And beside Marauder Imperium don't have any other air to ground support aircraft. Orbital bombardment is from space, not air and artillery is artillery.

Anything charging a tank can either take it apart singlehanded, or is trying to take it out with a short range explosive/incendiary.

I have seen to many Orks and Guardsman charge to believe that...

I don't believe I've seen anything of the sort, aside from battlefleet gothic, which would be constrained by the fact that it's played on a flat surface...

Well real space is not flat surface, and we can assume that battles are waging realistically. I have read comic "Battleflet Gothic" and in that comic they are using all 3 dimension for war in space. Unlike the Star Wars

Artillery and space combat spring to mind...

We are talking about infantry and their weapons. Everyone knows that artillery can firre blindly as can space ships.

That's mostly a peculiarity of the gameplay, resulting from a need for balance. Almost all of the fluff I've read has mostly made sense in this regard.

If this is the case than what do we need Assault Marines for? And the point is that his squad have Heavy bolter + Dreadnought assault cannon + SM bolter. And he chose to attack them in melle using knifes?

- Waiting until the last second to do a maneuver when not waiting is far more advantageous. ( as seen in most 40k fighting and larger battles )

Don't believe I've ever seen this one.

The only officers on the ground are those meant to be the leaders on the ground (platoon lieutenants and company captains), while the higher ranking officers sit back in their HQ with the strategists, advisers, and other support staff.

Creed, Yarric, Angelos, Stubbs, Sturn, Gaunt, Calgar... + many more... And not just the Imperials: Chaos Lord, Etherial, Farseer, Broodlord, Necron Lord, Warboss...

With the exception of Space Marines and other tactically impaired factions, not seeing this one either...

My point exactly.

They also don't wear helmets...

My point exactly.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Artillery, orbital bombardment, gunships...

Very rare to none. I never read in any book, seen in any comic or at any game that Guarrdsman are using radio to call in air support. And beside Marauder Imperium don't have any other air to ground support aircraft. Orbital bombardment is from space, not air and artillery is artillery.

Sorry but i have to tell you that you're wrong in that, is true that Marauder bombers are the most used aircraft for ground support... but there's also the thunderbolt fighterbomber...(a ugly flying thug featuring four nose-mounted auto cannons and a respectable payload) and the Lightning, a small interceptor armed with lascanons and a long range autocannon with atmospheric and space capabilities (normaly they are stationed in battleships)

Spetulhu wrote:

Rynsester wrote:I would be happy if the csm didn't lose this time. I'm getting pretty pissed at them being part of almost every game in the series and always failing. In the grim darkness of the far future, only the good guys win.

Abaddon is a role model for many CSM, and he's a total incompetent loser. No wonder it never works. 13 crusades and no result, congratulations.

Well, i have heard that the 13.Black Crusade is going rather well for the forces of chaos...

KingDeath wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Rynsester wrote:I would be happy if the csm didn't lose this time. I'm getting pretty pissed at them being part of almost every game in the series and always failing. In the grim darkness of the far future, only the good guys win.

Abaddon is a role model for many CSM, and he's a total incompetent loser. No wonder it never works. 13 crusades and no result, congratulations.

Well, i have heard that the 13.Black Crusade is going rather well for the forces of chaos...

it depends what you mean by "going well". Having under you command the largest force of CSM seen since the HH, a fleet that outnumbers battlefleet obscurus several times and the help of an insane amount of daemons, sorcery tricks, etc... and yet ending up stuck on cadia, with your fleet butchered and scattered with probably no real hope of ever leaving this damn planet doesn't really sound like a total success.

But they did set foot on Cadia. For the first time in 10000 years and 13 black crusades.

it depends what you mean by "going well". Having under you command the largest force of CSM seen since the HH, a fleet that outnumbers battlefleet obscurus several times and the help of an insane amount of daemons, sorcery tricks, etc... and yet ending up stuck on cadia, with your fleet butchered and scattered with probably no real hope of ever leaving this damn planet doesn't really sound like a total success.

But they did set foot on Cadia. For the first time in 10000 years and 13 black crusades.

As far as I know the Imperial fleet included much more than battlefleet obscurus. It's also worth noting that abby probably can only control his own legion directly with the others doing almost whatever they want. While the attack on Cadia hasn't achieved as much as it probably was supposed to, I think some other areas like some planets in the Agripinaa sector have fallen to Chaos and are being converted to daemon worlds. As for the csm troops being stuck on the surface of Cadia, they have been known to escape using portals before, like in the siege of Vraks. The 13th black crusade also isn't the first time Chaos troops have landed on Cadia.

I hope the Alpha Legion had a good reason for helping Kyrus. Not just to die as a sacrafice.

Chaos does as chaos pleases.

Brother Coa wrote:
Very rare to none. I never read in any book, seen in any comic or at any game that Guarrdsman are using radio to call in air support. And beside Marauder Imperium don't have any other air to ground support aircraft. Orbital bombardment is from space, not air and artillery is artillery.

So you've never seen Stormraven Gunships, Valkyries, the Space Marine Chapter Master's use of Orbital Bombardment (in the SM 'dex), the IG Master of Ordnance and Officer of the Fleet, and so on?

I have seen to many Orks and Guardsman charge to believe that...

Orks, I understand, where have you seen Guardsmen charging tanks? Also, for anti-armor and anti-air, they do use long-range heavy weapons....like lascannons, plasma cannons, Melta weaponry, missile launghers, autocannons, lance weapons, and so on. Those who charge often have things (power Fists, melta bombs, etc) that can take out armor at close range.

We are talking about infantry and their weapons. Everyone knows that artillery can firre blindly as can space ships.

In which setting can an infantryman shoot blindly and hit?

It would likely make war very easy to win, just shoot at a random wall and the magic bullets will hit enemies you can't even see!

You need line of sight as an infantry man to aim a key part of shooting. Few weapons can target and fire from very far away, to the point of being BVR, but those that can (lascannons, missile launcher, sniper rifles, etc) do so. Regularly.

If this is the case than what do we need Assault Marines for? And the point is that his squad have Heavy bolter + Dreadnought assault cannon + SM bolter. And he chose to attack them in melle using knifes?

Everyone generally agrees that the scene in the DoW intro was stupid tactics, there demotivational posters discussing this. We need assault because a) We have soldiers that can wrestle a tank and win (SM, Chaos, Tyranids, Orks, etc) b) many enemies use assault, so at one point you are pressed to counter with your own assault because everyone else does it.

Creed, Yarric, Angelos, Stubbs, Sturn, Gaunt, Calgar... + many more... And not just the Imperials: Chaos Lord, Etherial, Farseer, Broodlord, Necron Lord, Warboss...

Many of those leaders can rip apart a carnifex with their bare hands, or lead from the front as their actualy battlefield role. The job of Commissars like Yarrick is to lead by example, and inspiring his men to victory. Those who can't murder in assault (Ethereals, Farseer I'm guessing, Creed...) are more support from range leaders.

With the exception of Space Marines and other tactically impaired factions, not seeing this one either...

My point exactly.

byeond Space Marines, where their amrour often protects better than most pieces of cover, I don't really see this issue. Also, I've never seen the "oil and gunpowder kegs as cover" example.

This is getting pretty derailed.

However, I imagine that the canonical ending to retri will likely be a mix of the SM, IG, and eldar (I've only finished the SM one though so far).



Also, in DoW2, the IG can call in artillery strikes, air strikes, and air drops; SM can call in orbital bombardment.

He looks stupid with all those bionics though.

Lol sorry for de-railing, I completely forgot the thread topic. But yeah, given the past with Dawn of War games that includes multiple faction campaigns, I'd say Space Marine would be the canon ending. Also Gabe as Chapter Master? Awesomeness, he's been meant to take that position since the beginning.

@Brother Coa and Elector.
The game play is supposed to be part of a far bigger battle.
There are also factors we do not hear about or ever learn about.
The fluff (DoW is not considered fluff at least i don't consider it fluff) is a single account of what happened, this may have been exaggerated or even be a direct lie.

Wait, sorry I was going from the tabletop perspective (his original comment regarding the csm:

What do you expect? With them, all the problems normal marines have (pitiful numbers, hollywood tactics, poor understanding of cover, etc) are exacerbated, with a hefty dose of gibbering insanity and daemons bursting from their skulls thrown in for good measure.

Of course, space marines should never win either, for the reasons given above, and it's the Guard that carries the day with overwhelming numbers of mobile, well-equipped, elite troops...

led me to think we talking about it from fluff or tabletop. Game-wise, yeah I see what you're saying purplefood, thanks for clearing it up me.

Guardsmen standing in the open in art are often being portrayed in a glorified manner, and many Imperial troops carry weapons such as chainswords because they're facing alien foes that are likely to engage them in close combat, or because they're facing foes like the Tau who are utterly helpless up close.

I must ask one more question pointing to this plot.
I played as a SM and IG. And I didn't see Elena Derosa in campaign. What happened to her?

10 Years have passed.. her time in office probably ended and she most likely retired or continued in politics. I mean, I think in the DoW II series 11 years have passed so.. for a human that's a considerable amount of time.

purplefood wrote:The fluff (DoW is not considered fluff at least i don't consider it fluff) is a single account of what happened, this may have been exaggerated or even be a direct lie.

Definitely is considered fluff. Considering that Blood Ravens have been featured in Codex Space Marines, and every bit of fluff used in the game is approved by GW. It's just another outlet for that fluff, like Black Library novels.

-Loki- wrote:

purplefood wrote:The fluff (DoW is not considered fluff at least i don't consider it fluff) is a single account of what happened, this may have been exaggerated or even be a direct lie.

Definitely is considered fluff. Considering that Blood Ravens have been featured in Codex Space Marines, and every bit of fluff used in the game is approved by GW. It's just another outlet for that fluff, like Black Library novels.

Everything?
Or just the story?
Because if all of it is considered canon then that is a pretty stupid idea even for GW.