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So if the shaman has loremaster while he's mounrted on the spider does that mean he's still needs to generate his spells so that it's known what he himself has at the start of the game, or does he do that after(if) the spider dies?

I think it's start of game but would like to be sure.

I think either way works fine, or just randomize which spells he loses.

"If the Spider is removed as a casualty, then the forest goblin crew are removed along with it"
thats what it says in the rules, but is the Goblin great shaman treated as part of the crew?
If so then the Goblin great shaman dies along with the Spider, and therefore you don't need to roll for the shamans spells at all.

The GS is not a member of the crew. He just gets placed where the spider was....

There are rules for ridden monsters, and they even mention multiple riders somewhere in the book (not sure of the page ATM).

Reading the catchweb spider shrine again, it basically says that the Goblin Great Shaman has the loremaster special rule. So even if the Spider is Killed the Gobbo still has loremaster. He can't just fall from the spider when its killed and forget spells, If he know them all then he KNOWS THEM ALL, if you get what i mean.

yep i agree with that, i cant see anywhere where it says "if spider dies you lose loremaster"

Well, yeah, but I think the problem that gave rise to this thread is: "now that the device that gave the goblin this rule is gone, does he still have it?"

I don't have a book or anything, but from a logical standpoint, I think it's certainly possible that the shaman can forget his spells once the spider's dead. The spells were in the web-thing.

So...@Hoverboy: are you asking when he "chooses" his spells, for sake of how he plays with other gobbo shamans, or is there some other thing I'm missing?

Warpsolution wrote:So...@Hoverboy: are you asking when he "chooses" his spells, for sake of how he plays with other gobbo shamans, or is there some other thing I'm missing?

Yes exactly would he have to generate spells thus making them uancessable to other shamans.

Does it say anywhere that the Goblin Great Shaman loses Loremaster if the Spider is slain? NO. Theres nowhere in the rule book that says he loses loremaster.
Therefore he still knows all the spells. You don't have to roll for spells at all. Thats my interpretation of the rules.

I believe this will be something that will come up in the O&G FAQ, as it says nothing about it in the BRB or the O&G Army book.

It's the item on the mount which is giving him Loremaster. If the mount is gone, the shrine is gone so it follows that he'd lose Loremaster since it was the benefit of an item that allowed him to have it in the first place.

For example, if a Chaos Sorc had a Spell Familiar and it was subsequently destroyed by Vauls Unmaking. I would say that the sorc loses one spell since the item providing the bonus spell no longer exists.

Personally I wouldn't roll at the beginning to see what spells he will retain. I can see it potentially causing havoc with spell generation and limiting any other casters you have as you have mentioned. The Shaman has Loremaster so you generate spells normally for any other casters you have. Its only if the Shaman loses Loremaster then the roll would be to see what spells are lost. Playing it that makes more sense to me. He knows all the spells, not knows four spells then happens to have an extra two handy.

Alternately you could roll to see which spells he will retain first, but not allow that to effect your other casters rolls for spells.

You could just roll his spells after everyone else's. That way, you're still following the rule (wizards generate spells before the game), and you're not limiting yourself.

@Gorillawizard: I can see what you're saying, but I think that's a slippery slope. An item that grants Frenzy or Stubborn doesn't specifically say the model loses the ability when he loses the item. And so on.

the rule says the goblin shaman gains the loremaster rule, not "the goblin shaman has loremaster as long as he is mounted on the ..."

but i do agree this needs FAQing

Gorrila, Im happy to allow this at our FLGS, so its cool

This isn't a logically necessary rules argument, but I would tend to think of the Spidershrine kind of like a Slave Giant in an Ogre Kingdoms army.

If you have a slave giant, you can take the Big Name which indicates you beat a giant and have a higher Strength. Even if the giant dies, you can still use the Big Name.

I would assume that the Spidershrine indicates that a shaman of particular potency has shown up to the battle, rather than assuming that the Spidershrine makes him that potent.

"Only a shaman who has mastered the Little Waaaagh can construct a Spidershrine on an Arachnarok. Therefore, if there is a Spidershrine on the Arachnarok, there must be a shaman who has mastered the Little Waaagh."

However, similar to a mount providing an improved armor save to the rider, it may simply be the presence of the shrine which endows the goblin shaman with Loremaster. That's not, by any means, a ridiculous position to take.

Of course, it will need to be addressed in a FAQ, but it is really inelegant if you have to generate his spells, generate the spells of other goblin shaman based on those spells, and then ignore that spell list until his spider dies. However, inelegant rules never stopped GW before!

It says a goblin shaman mounted on a spider with the web has loremaster.
Hence the question of what happens if he isn't mounted anymore.

He still has loremaster, as nothing indicates he loses it, and there are no rules for midgame spell generation - and he CANNOT generate at the start as he has loremaster.

Smooth writing GW...

@Nos: I'll side with you on the idea that there's no known way to handle it otherwise, but if an upgrade on a mount gives you a rule, you keep it when the mount dies?

...or is the upgrade technically in the character section?

@Da Butcha: I think that makes the most sense. From a RAW standpoint, though, I think the problem lies in that the big name has a requirement, where the shrine doesn't. So the ogre book avoids an impossible situation, and (we're forced to assume) the goblins avoid one as well...?

Warpsolution wrote:@Nos: I'll side with you on the idea that there's no known way to handle it otherwise, but if an upgrade on a mount gives you a rule, you keep it when the mount dies?

...or is the upgrade technically in the character section?

It's in the mount's section specifiyng the upgrade is only for shaman mounts only.

Anyway i have another big spida question, since the shaman's option to take an araknarok dosen't specify that he replaces a crewman (or the whole crew) does that mean he is simply added to the spider meaning the monster ends up with 9 crew gobbos.

He isnt crew - you still have 8 crew gobbos

Honestly, I think this needs a FAQ. The loremaster mount falls outside of the normal sequence so we have no idea what to do.
You generate spells before you deploy, so generating later doesn't make sense, nor does generate for a wizard with lore master.

This is a case where the rules don't tell us what to do.

-Matt

That is...Truth.

Well it wasn't FAQ-ed

MODs feel free to lock this thread for necromancy, or we can try and figure it out now that we're 3 months wiser.

I personally generate spells for him at the start, unless someone objects.
Then again i don't go to tourneys.