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Something just came to me. In 40k and WHFB, why are wounds rolled for before armor saves? Wouldn't it make sense to roll to see if the attack beat the armor and then, if it did, to roll to see if that which got through still had enough to actually wound the model?

So why aren't armor saves rolled for first, then wounds?

It keeps the order consistent. You roll to-wound against every unit; they don't always get armor saves.

The same thing could apply though. You assign melta hits to a guy and then just don't roll the save for it. Same difference.

You could do this as a house rule. Doesn't change the math in any way.

snake wrote:Something just came to me. In 40k and WHFB, why are wounds rolled for before armor saves? Wouldn't it make sense to roll to see if the attack beat the armor and then, if it did, to roll to see if that which got through still had enough to actually wound the model?

So why aren't armor saves rolled for first, then wounds?

It also gives the defending player the last action to save his guys. If you've ever gone from playing an army where you rarely get to take saves to a MEQ, it feels good going from hit-wound-pull casualties to hit-wound-roll some saves!

Mathmatically, I believe the end results are the same either way.

snake wrote:Something just came to me. In 40k and WHFB, why are wounds rolled for before armor saves? Wouldn't it make sense to roll to see if the attack beat the armor and then, if it did, to roll to see if that which got through still had enough to actually wound the model?

So why aren't armor saves rolled for first, then wounds?

Mathematically it doesn't matter which way you do it. It doesn't seem logical but it supposedly makes the game flow better in that one player performs all his actions first then the other player makes his saves. Sot it keeps both players involved in every turn half and simplifies the need for too much changing back and forth who is acting at any given time.

To be honest, why roll to wound anyway?

What I mean is, we're talking about (in 40K at least) serious firepower all round, and let's face it, if a round (of any type) can pass through your armour, well, I'd assume it would have no issue passing through your flesh as well.

I know people will say, but the armour can dissipate the force of the round....but, even in modern day combat, a guy is pretty much gonna have some broken ribs (or severly winded) if his body armour stops a round.....and thats modern day ballistics.

I wouldn't mind at all, if my oponent rolls to hit, scores, and I take an armour save (if I can) and then job done....that's way more realistic to me, at least.

Rolling to hit and rolling to wound is essentially repeating the same step twice....IMHO

There's the wound allocation step, which spreads out the rolls. If there's an IC with invul in the squad, doesn't that affect how the wound/armour rolls happen?

WH is rather clunky.

The system was written 30 years ago by a not particularly sophisticated designer, and the core of it has never changed significantly.

That's just the way it is, and it will probably never change.

It makes sense to roll to wound after hitting. Even if you hit with an AP1 weapon you may roll a 1 to wound which represents an unlucky glancing hit or the recipient dodging at the last minute. Plus nothing beats your guardsman surviving a direct hit with a lascannon! Whoot!

Flow of the game. The attacker has the dice, and does all his rollings, THEN the defender takes the dice and does the last ditch effort to save some dudes. It would be weird having player A roll to hit, player B take dice, roll saves, and then player A taking the dice back and rolling for wounds.

KingCracker wrote:Flow of the game. The attacker has the dice, and does all his rollings, THEN the defender takes the dice and does the last ditch effort to save some dudes. It would be weird having player A roll to hit, player B take dice, roll saves, and then player A taking the dice back and rolling for wounds.

This makes the most sense to me. If the math is the same, then I suppose that this makes the game flow better with only an arguable impediment upon realism.

As it was, and as it shall forever be!

So it was written!

I believe, the 'wounding' element was meant to be if the shot hit squarely enough to cause significant damage, wasn't deflected by some equipment, or maybe just wasn't powerful enough to cause damage to whatever you hit (for whatever reason). If it was, then the only thing that can save you is your armour.

The roll to wound is more to distinguish shots that have struck critical locations on their target, not necessarily have merely damaged/injured the target.

The subsequent armour save is to see who's armour has withstood the critical shot and who's armour has failed.

Actually there are a couple different things that would change. Mathematically in the strictest sense it might not make much of a difference, but some things would change.

1) More seperation of rolls. Worst case go for nob bikers, but even for marines with a hvy weapon, a srgt, and a special, your spreading out the dice into more seperately rolled groupings. 8 bikers now, you roll to hit, you pick up the ones that do and you roll them all, then they get seperated out for saves. Saves before wounds though, someone needs to allocate which of the high powered shots are going to which targets, then seperate the rest of the shots out to the various differently configured individuals. Then you'll have to pick up the dice for the saves for each nob (keeping differing S and AP weapons seperated) and make them, then hand each group to the shooting player, seperately, for wound determination. So now, instead of one roll for wounds, you've added 7 more, from the same shooting. On the aforementioned Marine squad it isn't quite as bad, but your still at 4 groups with a heavy weapon, special weapon, and a sarge.

2) A shift in who things favor. Right now, things favor the defender in the shooting. You don't allocate wounds till after the wound rolls, so you can try to save the melta guy, or the sargeant, by only allocating one wound to them, or none at all if there are few enough to go around. Doing saves first would mean that there are going to be more dice going around. Yes, you can put the lascannon shot on joe marine that doesn't have any upgrades, but your probably still going to have one or two for the guys that otherwise you might not have to roll for at all. It shifts things slightly more to the shooters favor. The math might come out the same for actual number of models dead, but it'll be harder to keep the ones you want alive from harm.

I would personally like to see 40k transition into more of a 2d6 rather than a d6 game. D6 is more prone to "luck" or more accurately, variance, than a 2d6 system, which is much more likely to follow a bell curve.

It's to keep things is a line of order and speed up the game. One player complete resolves how many dice the other player has to roll for saves then you move on. Otherwise you have more dice counting to do on both sides which slows things down a bit.

Best way to thin about it to rationalize it to yourself is checking if the weapon hit with enough force that it can cause a wound, but then at that poitn you find out if it bounced off armor cover etc.

shealyr wrote:I would personally like to see 40k transition into more of a 2d6 rather than a d6 game. D6 is more prone to "luck" or more accurately, variance, than a 2d6 system, which is much more likely to follow a bell curve.

30 ork boys with slugga choppas charging into close combat is 120 swings.

You want to roll those seperate with 2d6's?

shealyr wrote:I would personally like to see 40k transition into more of a 2d6 rather than a d6 game. D6 is more prone to "luck" or more accurately, variance, than a 2d6 system, which is much more likely to follow a bell curve.

Rollind 20x 2d6 for that blob or 40x 2d6 for the boys squad! I'll pass thanks.

Had a friend that played it that way as a house rule.
To Hit; Armour Save; To Kill!

Lots of wargames combine To Hit, To Kill and To Save into one die roll, for multiple attacking figures.

There were games like that before WH came out.

I didn't mean he combined them just that he switched the traditional order of the last 2. So that instead of rolling to see "if you may have wounded him pending armour save" you were rolling to "Kill HIM!". Y'know for more dramatic effect. I wondered if that affected the math but people here don't seem to think so.

kronk wrote:
30 ork boys with slugga choppas charging into close combat is 120 swings.

Theres another reason I dont play 40k...120 to hit rolls with just one squad in just one round. Then theres the wound rolls, then...


Nope, Ill pass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:Lots of wargames combine To Hit, To Kill and To Save into one die roll, for multiple attacking figures.

Ive always preferred games that did a to hit then armor save rolls. For most non vehicle models anything that gets past the armor is a kill.

Mad4Minis wrote:

kronk wrote:
30 ork boys with slugga choppas charging into close combat is 120 swings.

Theres another reason I dont play 40k...120 to hit rolls with just one squad in just one round. Then theres the wound rolls, then...


Nope, Ill pass.

Bah! That's just makes it more Orky!

I figured the 'to wound' roll was actually determining if you managed to hit a vital area or not. If you hit but don't wound I tend to assume that you managed to hit him in the leg or something where he/she just grits his/her teeth and keeps going. Hitting a wound means you've hit the heart/lungs/head and areas where the armor is more important. Just how I figured it, I know it doesn't make a ton of sense but...meh.

Put simply, think of wounds as "potential wounds" that must be saved against or applied.