Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I very rarely post up lists before I play them, especially skaven ones - because let's face it, Clan Internets often has little interesting to add when it comes to rats - but I'm so torn on what list to bring to a mostly-friendly 2k local tournament this weekend that I thought I'd toss it over to Dakka for some thoughts. Here's the more tuned list, which I recently ran against some demons:

#1

L: Grey Seer – seed of rebirth
L: Warlord – ogre blade, dragonhelm, talisman of preservation, bonebreaker

H: Assassin – blade of corruption
H: Chieftain – BSB, enchanted shield, foul pendant, ironcurse icon

C: 30 Clanrats – full command, shields
C: 30 Clanrats – full command, shields
C: 30 Clanrats – full command, shields
C: 36 Slaves – pawleader, musician

S: 6 Plague Censer Bearers
S: 6 Plague Censer Bearers
S: 5 Gutter Runners – poison
S: 5 Gutter Runners – poison

R: Hellpit Abomination
R: Warp Lightning Cannon
---------
2000

The only thing I dislike is that I really don't like having a backfield (i.e. vulnerable artillery to babysit), and with no weapon teams my clanrats feel a bit redundant (but I don't have more blocks to replace with, like monks or stormies), and my core % is pretty meh (just personal preference, though above 2k and change I need weapon teams to make 25%). Also, my WLC is a hive guard conversion, which while painted and cool looking is also the odd tyranid out at this point, since I've been pulling the theme back to nurgle monsters once more.

#2

L: Grey Seer – seed of rebirth
L: Warlord – ogre blade, dragonhelm, talisman of preservation, bonebreaker

H: Assassin – blade of corruption
H: Chieftain – BSB, enchanted shield, foul pendant, ironcurse icon

C: 30 Clanrats – full command, shields, warpfire thrower
C: 30 Clanrats – full command, shields
C: 30 Clanrats – full command, shields
C: 36 Slaves – pawleader, musician

S: 6 Plague Censer Bearers
S: 6 Plague Censer Bearers
S: 5 Gutter Runners – poison
S: 5 Gutter Runners – poison

R: Hellpit Abomination - warpstone spikes
---------
2000

I have a painted WFT, but swore it off long ago and may have never run it since the new book came out, let alone the new edition. It helps with my total lack of flaming (bar scorch), and can seriously mangle those big units that my army occasionally suffers against. Also, a little core oomph % and tactics-wise. Downside is it's still a suicidal WFT, with random range and only a couple shots max per game (or killed post haste). Spikey HPA seems like a good policy, but rarely taken by me any more.

#3

L: Grey Seer – seed of rebirth
L: Warlord – ogre blade, dragonhelm, talisman of preservation, bonebreaker

H: Assassin – blade of corruption
H: Chieftain – BSB, foul pendant, ironcurse icon, shield

C: 30 Clanrats – full command, shields, doom-flayer
C: 30 Clanrats – full command, shields, doom-flayer
C: 30 Clanrats – full command, shields
C: 30 Slaves – pawleader, musician

S: 6 Plague Censer Bearers
S: 6 Plague Censer Bearers
S: 5 Gutter Runners – poison
S: 5 Gutter Runners – poison

R: Hellpit Abomination
---------
2000

No shooting (11 poisoned stars don't count) skaven?! This is the list I'd really like to field, but I don't know how I'd feel with 0 shooting phase (that matters). I like the core boost and I'm keen to play a more aggressive game ... yet with no actual combat block, just clanrats with fighty / fightyish characters I'm not sure it's a good idea. How are you all finding flayers? I've wanted to run them for a while but haven't had the gumption, and also have been very reliant upon ratling guns to "thin down the enemy" - in quotes because they've been doing a lot of not much in recent games! The real hits against this list is a) I have to convert two flayers by Sunday (not really a problem, but unpainted things are sad!), b) no shooting might be a tad too pessimistic of me, c) I miss the extra slaves and the tougher BSB. Frankly flayers feel about 5 points overcosted ... even if I haven't used them

#4

L: Grey Seer – seed of rebirth
L: Warlord – ogre blade, dragonhelm, talisman of preservation, bonebreaker

H: Assassin – blade of corruption
H: Chieftain – BSB, foul pendant, ironcurse icon, shield

C: 30 Clanrats – full command, shields, ratling gun
C: 30 Clanrats – full command, shields, ratling gun
C: 30 Clanrats – full command, shields
C: 30 Slaves – pawleader, musician

S: 6 Plague Censer Bearers
S: 6 Plague Censer Bearers
S: 5 Gutter Runners – poison
S: 5 Gutter Runners – poison

R: Hellpit Abomination
---------
2000

I've run 2-3 ratling guns in every skaven army ever, so this is the most boring build for me. Like I said, the ratters aren't even doing all that much for me any more (lots of jams), though they tend to shine most against WoC and HE, where I really want to thin out even a handful of elite killers before they start butchering my lines. It's thinking about not having that ability that has me concerned, since it means that handful of halberd warriors / swordmasters are in there hacking instead, and me with flayers or nothing (WFT situation) to counter-charge. Another point for the ratters (and the WFT to some extent), is the 360 degree fire response to flankers, flayers, rear-invaders, etc. The flayers can only threaten to the front arc, and even then are mostly reactionary, while the gun teams can spin and take out fast things. I guess the WLC fits this category too, though again I know everybody expects artillery and is equipped to take it out (or had better be!)

(#5: 2x 5 globadiers instead of weapon teams, with 10 points spent somehow. In parentheses because I don't really want 10 more skirmishers to micro-manage, even if my globes perform like crazy in most games, as well as providing some anti-armor that the list almost totally lacks at this point.)

So Dakka, which one do you prefer? WLC, WFT, 2x flayers, 2x ratters, 2x globes?

- Salvage

I like the 2xflayers, with the 2xglobes coming a close second. Tossing globes into a slave combat could be all kinds of fun, and with how well your PCBs have been doing, I'm beginning to think you should go MSU (despite my every effort to do the contrary in my own armies... those units really seem to be working for you!).

But I think doomflayers are the most awesome thing about skaven. They were the ones that tempted me most to start them... and it was narrowly resisted (mostly due to my inability to come up with an interesting list, as in the end, no matter what you're bringing it goes with clanrat blocks).

So git convertin'! And good luck whichever list you choose!

i second 2x flayers... for the reason that i can tell, thats what you really WANT to run. Should be great fun too, and look good as well

So since there was a tie between WLC and 2x DF, and since I didn't want to build those flayers Saturday night, I went with the cannon list. And didn't regret it, as that dude performed (Report is going to have to wait until late in the week, really a huge amount of work to do )

But I did hit on how to combine laser cannon and mangler machines:

L: Grey Seer – seed of rebirth
L: Warlord – ogre blade, dragonhelm, talisman of preservation, bonebreaker

H: Assassin – blade of corruption
H: Chieftain – BSB, foul pendant, shield

C: 30 Clanrats – full command, shields, doom-flayer
C: 30 Clanrats – full command, shields, doom-flayer
C: 30 Clanrats – full command, shields
C: 30 Slaves – pawleader, musician

S: 6 Plague Censer Bearers
S: 6 Plague Censer Bearers
S: 5 Gutter Runners – poison

R: Hellpit Abomination
R: Warp Lightning Cannon
---------
2000

Dropped that second unit of gutters that I never seem to have a use for (maybe for artillery spam above 2k but not really at this level), pitched that ironcurse icon I've never remembered to use, and voila. Sad that the slaves are so wee, and the BSB is still amazingly easy to kill (3/5+ save has never saved him a single wound that I can remember), so the list isn't 100% yet ... But got my support sorted

- Salvage

Great to hear it did well, and looking forward to the batreps!

Didn't see this in time to vote, but honestly I've never had a game where my WLC(s) didn't end up as my MVP(s). With two "bounce" rolls, I start by placing the token 8-10" off the enemy unit (depending on their base size, ranks, etc.) and I'd say I have about a 85-90% success rate at getting the template into their ranks. It's brutal, especially when you're talking about an average S6, No AS, Multiple Wounds (D6) small template. Temple what? White who? The beat down you can put on even a large unit is pretty amazing.

I'm also wondering how much longer I'll be using weapon teams myself. With T3 and W1 they die pretty very easily to even a moderate amount of shooting, 5+/4++ or no. A WFT is 70 points, equal to what... 15 or so Clan Rats w/ Shields?

Thought WFT was two wounds for some reason...

I thought the same about Jezzails. Two bodies, two attacks, but still only 1 wound :(

Weapon Teams are...okay, if you want to bring more threats to the table after your Rares are allotted. But they're really just okay.
At least the 'Thrower can bring Flaming to the table, I guess.

Against certain armies that lack a ton of shooting, warpfire throwers can be amazing. This is especially true with the tendency for large blocks of core units to serve as anchors / anvils. A flame template landing in the middle of Empire State Troops or Greatswords, for instance, has done considerable damage.

Against high elves and after rolling up Battle for the Pass, Archers had plenty of time to shoot them down before they were ever a threat, despite 2 WLCs and a Hellpit being on the table. Weapon Teams are easy VPs, and really they're worth taking the time to kill.