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Heres a Tourney List im playtesting, pretty much cookie cutter and Mechdar standard to the max.

HQ-
Farseer(105)
Doom
Runes of Warding and Witnessing

Elite-
5x firedragon-96
5x firedragon-80
6x firedragon-80

wave serpent scatter lazer-115
wave serpent scatter lazer-115
wave serpent scatter lazer-115

Troops-
10 Storm Guardians-80
2 flamers
10 Storm Guardians-80
2flamers
11 Storm Guradians-88
2flamers

Destructor Lock-35
Destructor Lock-35
Destructor Lock-35

Wave Serpent Scatter Lazer-115
Wave Serpent Scatter Lazer-115
Wave Serpent Scatter Lazer-115

Heavy Support
WraithLord EML/Scatterlazer- 135
Wraithlord EML/Scatterlazer- 135
Wraithlord EML/Scatterlazer- 135

Total=1845


Im a pretty experienced Eldar player, and this is the one of the only lists that works in a competitive enviornment. This list is basically made up of things, that work.

This list is centered around Swift Survivablity.

Gameplan-
30 StormGuardians with 6 flamers, 3 warlocks with 3 flamers, coupled with doom can take out any infantry on Objectives that I need them to.
15 Fire Dragons Suicide anything with a high armor value, or terminators, or anything that needs to die.
6 Wave Serpents take shots and move my troops where they need to go
Finally 3 Wraithlords do what they do, everything. Probably the MOST underated and OP unit in the game. 6 Flamers, EML Scatter Lazer. They can do anything that needs to be done.


Ive played lists with Guardian Jetbikes in all squads. Ive tired to use scorpians, banshees, vypers. Ive play tested this list with 3 prisms and an autarch instead of the 3 wraithlords and I honestly found that fire prisms arnt effective as they should be. They get lucky and pop a random tank and or termi squad, but honestly they arnt worth their weight.

Anything and everything in this list is an amazing unit. They do their job with excellence and no chance.

Im looking for Tactics and ofc the Critique on this list.
Thanks and hope you find this list interesting.

It'll get eaten by top tier lists..

- Wraithlords sadly can't hold their own anymore. A single PF/PK/Termie squad etc will wreck them and if DE make it close to you their basic gunfire will down one. Not sure what you are going for with the EML/Scatter combo...
- You have 3 troops, and all three are offensively built. If you fail to kill your target, you'll lose that unit and that isn't hard with Ldr 8, T3, 5+.

FNP will laugh at basically everything in the list along with Thunderwolf cav and DA TH/SH termie armies.

I think it's a list that will walk all over certain lists, while folding like paper against others. I don't like paper/rock/scissors lists, but it's not a bad one either.

I'd still try to add a sturdier troop choice, like a DAVU Falcon, so you're not totally screwed when your Storms get beaten to death by a squad they failed to kill last turn.

BlueDagger wrote:It'll get eaten by top tier lists..

- Wraithlords sadly can't hold their own anymore. A single PF/PK/Termie squad etc will wreck them and if DE make it close to you their basic gunfire will down one. Not sure what you are going for with the EML/Scatter combo...
- You have 3 troops, and all three are offensively built. If you fail to kill your target, you'll lose that unit and that isn't hard with Ldr 8, T3, 5+.

FNP will laugh at basically everything in the list along with Thunderwolf cav and DA TH/SH termie armies.

+1

FNP makes storm guardians sub-par now

Meh, fnp hurts dire avengers at least as much as it hurts storm guardians. And the gu's are still cheaper.

The problem is that in die hard tourney lists neither storms or bladestormers hold their own, for the reasons mentioned by bluedagger and exasperated by fnp spam.

Storm guardians are still a fine unit, and mine still kick ass, but they are semi competitive, and I wouldn't expect a list with em to win a tourney.

If its top tier tourney you're looking at, usually davu serpents is the way to go.

BlueDagger wrote:It'll get eaten by top tier lists..

- Wraithlords sadly can't hold their own anymore. A single PF/PK/Termie squad etc will wreck them and if DE make it close to you their basic gunfire will down one. Not sure what you are going for with the EML/Scatter combo...
- You have 3 troops, and all three are offensively built. If you fail to kill your target, you'll lose that unit and that isn't hard with Ldr 8, T3, 5+.

FNP will laugh at basically everything in the list along with Thunderwolf cav and DA TH/SH termie armies.

Thank you for a compleatly worthless post that elaborates on/suggests nothing.

1) If this list isnt vaible, its a problem with the eldar codex not my choices.

2) Wraithlords cant holdl there own anymore? Give me a unit that will do better against any of the supposed "counters" you posted. Not sure what Im going for with the EML/Scatter Combo? What does that mean? 4 str6 shots and 1 str8 shot or a possible pinning template is pretty self explanatory. It can hurt troops or mech. How is the use not obvious? Whats the better choice there rofl. I dont really know why you dog wraithlords. IMO its because your bad and cant position/counter charge them correctly. They are a 3 wound toughness 8 Mosterous Creature. They have a bs of 4. They can out shoot most things, Out Close combat most things, and take more damage than anything. They are the same amount of points as a fire prism, but about 10x better.

Your arguement is just flawed in so many ways its not funny. Alot of things literally cant damage a wraithlord. The amount of energy it causes to inflict 9 wounds on toughness 8 is incredible, imagine all the firepower NOT on transports rofl. Your comment on the wraithlords is just bad.

If you cant use wraithlords you cant position them behind cover or in a way that lessens the amount of damage. Yea by themselves they can get taken down, but 3 of them cant. If your wraithlords DIE it doesnt matter, because when a wraithlord dies the damage inflicted anywhere else would be atleast 2x as devastating. Taking a wound on a wraithlord is equivalent to a to inflicting a penetrating+ on armor 12. If my wraithlords can take 9 penetrating shots off my transports thats ok with me.

3) All my units are offensive, yea thats right thanks for making a compleatly obvious statement. Eldar is an offensive alpha strike army going into and blowing up objectives the top of 6. Its how you play Eldar.

If I fail to kill the target? Wow really rofl? I have 3 flamers, 8 pistol shots, with doom. Thats atleast 30+ wounds. If a squad survives, well it never does rofl.

4) FNP will "Laugh at this list". Ok Yea because I picked units that have a disadvantage with FNP? Your assuming that there is something that has an advantage over FNP. FNP has an advantage over every type of List.


If this eldar army is a "bad" eldar list, then eldar cant win tourneys rofl because this is one of the best lists the eldar codex offers.

If you think im wrong post an actual suggestion with reasons backing it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

labmouse42 wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:It'll get eaten by top tier lists..

- Wraithlords sadly can't hold their own anymore. A single PF/PK/Termie squad etc will wreck them and if DE make it close to you their basic gunfire will down one. Not sure what you are going for with the EML/Scatter combo...
- You have 3 troops, and all three are offensively built. If you fail to kill your target, you'll lose that unit and that isn't hard with Ldr 8, T3, 5+.

FNP will laugh at basically everything in the list along with Thunderwolf cav and DA TH/SH termie armies.

+1

FNP makes storm guardians sub-par now

What counters FNP rofl?

Your assuming I will engage a FNP unit with a mechdar army, which clearly means youve never played Mechdar. I fly around the board and take magority objectives last turn, fnp doesnt matter rofl.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Araenion wrote:I think it's a list that will walk all over certain lists, while folding like paper against others. I don't like paper/rock/scissors lists, but it's not a bad one either.

I'd still try to add a sturdier troop choice, like a DAVU Falcon, so you're not totally screwed when your Storms get beaten to death by a squad they failed to kill last turn.

Why are Dire Avengers better than storm guardians?

Storm guardians cause more wounds with doom and are cheaper, especially with a warlock.

*Sigh*, I will really try not to make this an attacking post because either you are a troll or a 10 year old with an attitude.

Wraithlords and cover - Not sure what kind of boards you are use to playing on, but short of using your own tanks (which would hinder their movement) there isn't a lot of things that is going to give these guys cover. Also, a chunk of things that WILL give them cover will block their LoS unless you are tucking around a corner of a building in which case it's not terribly hard to duck out of LoS from you or get at a further angle and shoot you to pieces. the current Meta is anti-tank.. so yeah the majority of things out there will be able to down your wraithlord with either melta, lascannons, ML, thunderhammers etc etc etc. 3 of them doesn't really matter because at that point you have sucked up all of your heavies and at 135pts while it's not expensive it's not cheap either. You've basically kitted them out for anti-light tank or anti-infantry, you have 6 serpents with scatter lasers for anti-light transport and flamer guardians for anti troop, so I'm not seeing what you are accomplishing with that weapon loadout. EML/Bl would give you anti heavy tank and more anti-medium tank which at range you have non-of, and yes you have the fire dragons there for that, but they aren't going to be there turn 1 and maybe not every turn 2. So if we are not playing them correctly please please enlighten use on how you plan to face something with a PF equivalent trying to CC you and is outrunning your 6" move. Please advise me on how you plan to fight a deepstriking TH/SS terminator squad right next to your wraithlords.

So you have 3 Flamer Guardians for your scoring units, in an objective game you are already under trooped in a 1850 tourney list. If you get those guys out of their serpent to attack you are going to get shot to pieces, period. You have one Farseer and three squads, poof there goes your 30 wound estimate since you are banking on #1 your enemies being clustered up, and #2 you always having doom on your target. 16 cata shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 1 unsaved vs marines and we'll be generous and say you nail 6 with each flamer template 12s4 goes to 6 wounds 2 more unsaved, now a 6 s5 get 4 wounds 1 unsaved. You just killed 4 marines with the unit, next turn they shoot the piss outta you and assault because you are well within 12"... yay. Or maybe his buddies get out of the rhino nearby and shoot the piss outta you, or maybe any template because you are bunched up at the end of your rhino. Once you take 3 wounds you start testing Ldr 8 and without embolden you'll go runnin. If you are waiting around to doom a target each time you want to use those flamers you are not going to get to use each of those 3 units in the game. Eldar are far from an alpha strike army, we are a surgical fast army.

You infact did take a list that is disadvantages to FNP because you have heavies that are slow and will get caught by those FNP units, while your troops suck up points and won't get out of their transports to fight FNP units because at a 12" range you are screwed with them.

Just because you post a list that does not mean that list is the "OMGROFL Best listorz everoz with my Scattor Lazzors", myself and plenty of other Eldar player win tournaments to this day and guess what... they aren't playing your list *gasp*

Why do people post lists when they don't want advice?

Why do some people confuse advice as personal attacks?

I like this list actually, but I think it would be better to have EML on serpents and then swords on lords.That way the serpents can kill fnp units while wraithlord can run up and actually fight!

Smitty0305 wrote:Why are Dire Avengers better than storm guardians?

Storm guardians cause more wounds with doom and are cheaper, especially with a warlock.

A Falcon with 5 Dire Avenger inside is one of the sturdiest scoring units in the game, and sturdy scoring units is something you lack. What's going to claim your home objective? Those Storm Guardians are over at your enemy's face. Put a second cheap Guide Seer with Runes of Warding(and turn the other one into a regular Doomseer) into the Falcon, put an EML on it and you have 3 TL S8 shots at 48" plus a scoring unit that is a problem to take out, unlike your Storm Guardians. And on top of it all, if you keep your Wraithlords behind your Falcon, because your board happens to not have enough terrain tall enough to provide cover to WLs, they'll still have cover and they'll be within 6" of a Farseer to never have to worry about wraithsight.

labmouse42 wrote:Why do people post lists when they don't want advice?

Why do some people confuse advice as personal attacks?

making false statements supported by no facts or reasoning or actual suggestions isnt advice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlueDagger wrote:*Sigh*, I will really try not to make this an attacking post because either you are a troll or a 10 year old with an attitude.

Wraithlords and cover - Not sure what kind of boards you are use to playing on, but short of using your own tanks (which would hinder their movement) there isn't a lot of things that is going to give these guys cover. Also, a chunk of things that WILL give them cover will block their LoS unless you are tucking around a corner of a building in which case it's not terribly hard to duck out of LoS from you or get at a further angle and shoot you to pieces. the current Meta is anti-tank.. so yeah the majority of things out there will be able to down your wraithlord with either melta, lascannons, ML, thunderhammers etc etc etc. 3 of them doesn't really matter because at that point you have sucked up all of your heavies and at 135pts while it's not expensive it's not cheap either. You've basically kitted them out for anti-light tank or anti-infantry, you have 6 serpents with scatter lasers for anti-light transport and flamer guardians for anti troop, so I'm not seeing what you are accomplishing with that weapon loadout. EML/Bl would give you anti heavy tank and more anti-medium tank which at range you have non-of, and yes you have the fire dragons there for that, but they aren't going to be there turn 1 and maybe not every turn 2. So if we are not playing them correctly please please enlighten use on how you plan to face something with a PF equivalent trying to CC you and is outrunning your 6" move. Please advise me on how you plan to fight a deepstriking TH/SS terminator squad right next to your wraithlords.

So you have 3 Flamer Guardians for your scoring units, in an objective game you are already under trooped in a 1850 tourney list. If you get those guys out of their serpent to attack you are going to get shot to pieces, period. You have one Farseer and three squads, poof there goes your 30 wound estimate since you are banking on #1 your enemies being clustered up, and #2 you always having doom on your target. 16 cata shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 1 unsaved vs marines and we'll be generous and say you nail 6 with each flamer template 12s4 goes to 6 wounds 2 more unsaved, now a 6 s5 get 4 wounds 1 unsaved. You just killed 4 marines with the unit, next turn they shoot the piss outta you and assault because you are well within 12"... yay. Or maybe his buddies get out of the rhino nearby and shoot the piss outta you, or maybe any template because you are bunched up at the end of your rhino. Once you take 3 wounds you start testing Ldr 8 and without embolden you'll go runnin. If you are waiting around to doom a target each time you want to use those flamers you are not going to get to use each of those 3 units in the game. Eldar are far from an alpha strike army, we are a surgical fast army.

You infact did take a list that is disadvantages to FNP because you have heavies that are slow and will get caught by those FNP units, while your troops suck up points and won't get out of their transports to fight FNP units because at a 12" range you are screwed with them.

Just because you post a list that does not mean that list is the "OMGROFL Best listorz everoz with my Scattor Lazzors", myself and plenty of other Eldar player win tournaments to this day and guess what... they aren't playing your list *gasp*

A better post than the first but your still pointing out flaws without giving actual alternatives.

If you have an 1850 list that wins tourneys post it and explain how its better than mine.

Btw if the list is a seer council deathstar or war walker spam meh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Araenion wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:Why are Dire Avengers better than storm guardians?

Storm guardians cause more wounds with doom and are cheaper, especially with a warlock.

A Falcon with 5 Dire Avenger inside is one of the sturdiest scoring units in the game, and sturdy scoring units is something you lack. What's going to claim your home objective? Those Storm Guardians are over at your enemy's face. Put a second cheap Guide Seer with Runes of Warding(and turn the other one into a regular Doomseer) into the Falcon, put an EML on it and you have 3 TL S8 shots at 48" plus a scoring unit that is a problem to take out, unlike your Storm Guardians. And on top of it all, if you keep your Wraithlords behind your Falcon, because your board happens to not have enough terrain tall enough to provide cover to WLs, they'll still have cover and they'll be within 6" of a Farseer to never have to worry about wraiths
ight.

ive play tested this and the performance really didnt impress me.

I wouldn't claim it's the only Eldar list that can win tourneys as there are other Eldar players winning various tourneys with different builds.

However, I like the list, but have some concerns over the Wraithlords. It appears the Warlocks/Farseer will be utilizing mobility via Wave Serpents. This is fine but creates some issues with Wraithsight. You either hinder some movement capability to ensure the Wraithlords are within Wraithsight distance or just forgoe it and risk the d6 roll for each Wraithlord. I've not played in this fashion, so it's difficult for me to see how often this could come up in the game.

For the points, I'm on the fence about Wraithlords and Wraithsight concerns over something with more offensive capability, but a bit more fragile: War Walkers. 2 WW with Scatterlasers are nearly the same points as the Wraithlord. If you want to utilize their Outflank ability, you can run several WW with Shuriken Cannons. Again, lots of shooting, but can be a bit more fragile.

I do like the Storm Guardians, but it's a tough trade off. When you dump a Storm Guardian unit out to kill off a unit with Flamers/Heavy Flamer, you've now exposed a very fragile Troop choice to get clobbered the next turn. Obviously, this is very situational as it can be very useful some games or a huge detriment in others. With only 3 troop choices, this can be pretty risky.

I'd be interested if you'd write up some battle reports with this list to illustrate how this army works. I've not played a variation like this, but can envision how some of it works. I think it would help what few Eldar players are still out here while we patiently await a new codex.

Sarigar wrote:I wouldn't claim it's the only Eldar list that can win tourneys as there are other Eldar players winning various tourneys with different builds.

However, I like the list, but have some concerns over the Wraithlords. It appears the Warlocks/Farseer will be utilizing mobility via Wave Serpents. This is fine but creates some issues with Wraithsight. You either hinder some movement capability to ensure the Wraithlords are within Wraithsight distance or just forgoe it and risk the d6 roll for each Wraithlord. I've not played in this fashion, so it's difficult for me to see how often this could come up in the game.

For the points, I'm on the fence about Wraithlords and Wraithsight concerns over something with more offensive capability, but a bit more fragile: War Walkers. 2 WW with Scatterlasers are nearly the same points as the Wraithlord. If you want to utilize their Outflank ability, you can run several WW with Shuriken Cannons. Again, lots of shooting, but can be a bit more fragile.

I do like the Storm Guardians, but it's a tough trade off. When you dump a Storm Guardian unit out to kill off a unit with Flamers/Heavy Flamer, you've now exposed a very fragile Troop choice to get clobbered the next turn. Obviously, this is very situational as it can be very useful some games or a huge detriment in others. With only 3 troop choices, this can be pretty risky.

I'd be interested if you'd write up some battle reports with this list to illustrate how this army works. I've not played a variation like this, but can envision how some of it works. I think it would help what few Eldar players are still out here while we patiently await a new codex.

Good post.

Yea I take the wraithsight, its a drawback but its managable.

Ive used war walkers, but I like wraithlords competance in close combat and ability to take damage.

Ill try to make some bat reps if I play some competitive games.

I play pretty standard mechdar. Overwelm something that isnt supported, while contesting something with the minimum.

All Eldar players posting bad lists should do this one and win games.

Also waiting for Bluedaggers responce to how my list, and not eldar in general have problems with FNP ect.

Umm full mechdar and note slogging your heavies? Prism and Nightspinner allows you to keep your distance from FNP hard to kill targets while working your shots on them rather them slump around 6" and have predictable movement. Those three heavies will also give you AP2 blasts of a rending/dangerous terrain blast thus negating FNP You have a pile of points on those 3 troop choices and if you want to fire with them your going to have to get out... once again, not good in a FNP environment because it's not run and gun, thus slowing you down.

If your asking me to build you a list, I'm sure you're fully competent of doing that yourself.

BlueDagger wrote:Umm full mechdar and note slogging your heavies? Prism and Nightspinner allows you to keep your distance from FNP hard to kill targets while working your shots on them rather them slump around 6" and have predictable movement. Those three heavies will also give you AP2 blasts of a rending/dangerous terrain blast thus negating FNP You have a pile of points on those 3 troop choices and if you want to fire with them your going to have to get out... once again, not good in a FNP environment because it's not run and gun, thus slowing you down.

If your asking me to build you a list, I'm sure you're fully competent of doing that yourself.

I actually play tested 3 Fire Prisms and I wasnt impressed with their Survivability and their damage. Anything that can deepstrike with meltas eats them. Yea there decent, but id much rather have a CC / Ranged platform that can take more damage, deal more damage.

Post your Tourney winning list.

Maybe I'm missing something here but I didn't think an EML krak missile ignores FNP. Unless I'm wrong about that, I wouldn't rely on them to take out single Marines who will probably get a cover save and FNP. I think the Fire Dragons should do well enough putting those down. If you're trying to balance the list out to deal with FNP better then a couple EML or BL on Serpents or BL on WLs might free up your Dragons to shoot FNP targets that fall out of transports.

I have to disagree that WLs are super tough these days. There is an abundance of AT weapons, poisoned weapons and powerfists that can put them down. Though you've got good target saturation so if I were playing against you I'd be putting your Dragons' Serpents down first and your WLs would actually get to fire a decent amount.

3 squads of Tri-Flame guardians is over saturating your troops with offensive mindset while also not having enough doom to cover them.

Having played either 3 prisms or 2 prisms/nightspinner for quite some time competitively I can speak nothing, but the opposite. Holo-fields gives most of my opponents nightmares for months on end and Eldrad nearby to guide 2 prisms gives you two Twin-Linked 60" Lascannon Blasts. Deepstiking isn't an issue if you screen with Serpents and unlike wraithlords if they do DS, you just move away.

dnanoodle wrote:Maybe I'm missing something here but I didn't think an EML krak missile ignores FNP. Unless I'm wrong about that, I wouldn't rely on them to take out single Marines who will probably get a cover save and FNP. I think the Fire Dragons should do well enough putting those down. If you're trying to balance the list out to deal with FNP better then a couple EML or BL on Serpents or BL on WLs might free up your Dragons to shoot FNP targets that fall out of transports.

I have to disagree that WLs are super tough these days. There is an abundance of AT weapons, poisoned weapons and powerfists that can put them down. Though you've got good target saturation so if I were playing against you I'd be putting your Dragons' Serpents down first and your WLs would actually get to fire a decent amount.

No wraithlords are not Invincible , but they can take more damage than every other eldar HS slot.

As far as FNP Im not worried about it. FNP counters everything, and Im not making an entire list to counter FNP.

*sigh* if you wanna play the E-Peen game, used this at the latest con (72 players), top 25% w/ 3-2 win loss with losses by a half inch both games against top 10 players:

1850
Eldrad

2x 4 FD + Exarch w/ DB Flamer, Crackshot
2x Wave Serpent w/ SL

3x 5 Dire Avengers
3x Wave Serpent w/ EML
2x 3 GJB w/ Cannon + Lockbiker w/ SS, Embolden

2x Fire Prism w/ Holo-Field
Night Spinner

Prelim qualifiers for CO state wide Feast of Blades won with something to the nature of (last min mods so don't have it memorized):

2k
Eldrad

2x 4 FD + Exarch w/ DB Flamer, Crackshot
Wave Serpent w/ SL

2x 5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent w/ EML
Wave Serpent w/ BL
10 Guardians w/ Scatter laser + Warlock w/ Embolden
Wave Serpent w/ EML, Stones
2x 3 GJB w/ Cannon + Lockbiker w/ SS, Embolden

2x Fire Prism w/ Holo-Field, Stones
Night Spinner w/ Holo-Field, Stones


Finals for CO state wide Feast of Blades was yesterday and place about 6th only after having lost at the top table last round to the winner:

2k
Eldrad

3x 5 FD
Wave Serpent w/ SL

3x 5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent w/ SL
10 Guardians w/ Scatter laser + Warlock w/ Embolden
Wave Serpent w/ EML
3 GJB w/ Cannon + Lockbiker w/ SS, Embolden

2x Falcons w/ BL, Holo-Field, Stones (yes Falcons, lol. Got a bit burnt out on tourneys so I decided to dust them off for this one and while Prisms would have done me much better they did the job)
Night Spinner w/ Holo-Field


Happy?

BlueDagger wrote:3 squads of Tri-Flame guardians is over saturating your troops with offensive mindset while also not having enough doom to cover them.

Having played either 3 prisms or 2 prisms/nightspinner for quite some time competitively I can speak nothing, but the opposite. Holo-fields gives most of my opponents nightmares for months on end and Eldrad nearby to guide 2 prisms gives you two Twin-Linked 60" Lascannon Blasts. Deepstiking isn't an issue if you screen with Serpents and unlike wraithlords if they do DS, you just move away.

Post your 1850 Tourney List , Id Like to see it.

As far as 3 squads of storm guardians , yea it is offensive but thats the purpose of mechdar. I have plenty of doom support, I never and or very rarely hit more than 1 squad per turn with my infantry. I guess you would rather I have DAVU's? My personal preference is 3 Flamers and an extra combat attack > assult 3 weapons.

My Eldar List probably counters your Eldar list greatly.

And IMO using Eldrad to guide Fire Prisms with Holo Fields is amazing but overcosted. 210+300 is 510 point unit with 2 tanks, while my 3 wraithlords with a better BS and ability to take 3 penetrating shots each and perform in CC is only 435.

Explain to me how 3 Wraithlords is worse than 2 Fire Prisms.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlueDagger wrote:*sigh* if you wanna play the E-Peen game, used this at the latest con (72 players), top 25% w/ 3-2 win loss with losses by a half inch both games against top 10 players:

1850
Eldrad

2x 4 FD + Exarch w/ DB Flamer, Crackshot
2x Wave Serpent w/ SL

3x 5 Dire Avengers
3x Wave Serpent w/ EML
2x 3 GJB w/ Cannon + Lockbiker w/ SS, Embolden

2x Fire Prism w/ Holo-Field
Night Spinner

Prelim qualifiers for CO state wide Feast of Blades won with something to the nature of (last min mods so don't have it memorized):

2k
Eldrad

2x 4 FD + Exarch w/ DB Flamer, Crackshot
Wave Serpent w/ SL

2x 5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent w/ EML
Wave Serpent w/ BL
10 Guardians w/ Scatter laser + Warlock w/ Embolden
Wave Serpent w/ EML, Stones
2x 3 GJB w/ Cannon + Lockbiker w/ SS, Embolden

2x Fire Prism w/ Holo-Field, Stones
Night Spinner w/ Holo-Field, Stones


Finals for CO state wide Feast of Blades was yesterday and place about 6th only after having lost at the top table last round to the winner:

2k
Eldrad

3x 5 FD
Wave Serpent w/ SL

3x 5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent w/ SL
10 Guardians w/ Scatter laser + Warlock w/ Embolden
Wave Serpent w/ EML
3 GJB w/ Cannon + Lockbiker w/ SS, Embolden

2x Falcons w/ BL, Holo-Field, Stones (yes Falcons, lol. Got a bit burnt out on tourneys so I decided to dust them off for this one and while Prisms would have done me much better they did the job)
Night Spinner w/ Holo-Field


Happy?

Yea those lists are good lists.

Your list is faster, while mine has ALOT more firepower and anti infantry capabilities.

I like the fact that I can actually use my infantry units to COMPLEATLY ANIHILATE other infantry units. Your squads of 5 DAVU's are just to grab objectives, and if you actually leave your serpent its only in desperation. The 2 squads of Jetbikes are cool, dont have a problem with them except that I dont see them doing alot of damage and I see them failing alot of morale checks.

I like my list more, and I think it is alot more dangerous. My list can do alot that quite frankly yours cant.

I also have an Extra wave serpent, and an ENTIRE extra squad of fire dragons. I also have Target Saturation so my fire dragons arnt Gurenteed to get shot at first. In your list the Dire dragons stick out as the obvious first choice. IMO I have more effective anti mech, and anti infantry. I can take more shots.

Better yet explain to me how they are better then 2 prism and a nightspinner. You have 1 single shot at BS 4 48" from each with a missile launcher, vs 2 guided S9 blasts at 60" range. You are done if you get assaulted or targeted with lascannons or higher while a prism is typically just getting shook for a round.

I would LOOOOVE to go up against this in a tourney. Your 1850 vs mine I'd have range on you with TL EMLs in a serpent vs serpent with you glancing at best, my prisms hitting you out of your range, my spinner raping those guardians when they get out, and my fire dragons (and hell even the jetlock) smearing the Wraithlords.

BlueDagger wrote:Better yet explain to me how they are better then 2 prism and a nightspinner. You have 1 single shot at BS 4 48" from each with a missile launcher, vs 2 guided S9 blasts at 60" range. You are done if you get assaulted or targeted with lascannons or higher while a prism is typically just getting shook for a round.

I would LOOOOVE to go up against this in a tourney. Your 1850 vs mine I'd have range on you with TL EMLs in a serpent vs serpent with you glancing at best, my prisms hitting you out of your range, my spinner raping those guardians when they get out, and my fire dragons (and hell even the jetlock) smearing the Wraithlords.

This makes absolute no sense to me. I have 3 Targets that can take a total of 9 Penetrating hits while returning fire. You have 2 Targets that can take a total of 2 penetrating hits, where they can not return fire. My Survivability is over 4x yours. How do you not understand this advantage? not only that, but I can enter close combat, while you can not.

Against most armies, I would have a distinct Advantage. I have more shots, and I can take more shots.

My List would do fine against yours, It would be a close game and you would have a heck of a time taking out my wraithlords, and neither of us would be able to take out all of the opponents serpents, although both your jetbike squads would probably be whiped out very quickly. I would actually find it an enjoyable game.

Parckie
EML- 3
Scatter Lazerz - 9
Flamerz - 9

Total Penetrating Hits I can take- 15

BlueDagger
EML - 2
Scatter Lazerz - 3
Str 9 Shots - 2
Str 6 Blast - 1
Infantry Shots - 30
Suri Cannon Shots - 6

Total Penetrating Hits army can take- 8




I have 24 more scatter lazer shots than you. You have more longer range AP Shots, but its Irrelevant. Your using your Heavys for anti Mech, While I have an ENTIRE extra squad of fire dragons to take out anti Mech. You have 20 or so wounds with all your infantry units, I have 9 Flamers which is 90 possible wounds. I can also Withstand almost twice as many armor 12 penetrating hits than you can. Your anti tank will be destroyed VERY early game, while my heavy support is gurenteed with the same fire power to last more rounds. Because my units last longer they are ashured to cause more damage.

My List is better agaisnt mech heavy armies, due to the 24 extra str6 shots that can take out rhino's , and the extra squad of fire dragons.

Personally I like my list more, because I can actually engage and destroy. Your list is 100% designed to dance around the board.

Id like to see what you think about the numerical advantages in my list, because right now your clearly ignoring it.

...

of COURSE Blue Dagger's list is designed to dance accross the board.

Thats the entire point. Everything zips about, skirting your units, and shooting into your tanks, and using his mobility to contest / claim objectives at the end. Fire Prisms with holo fields are crazy survivable, and while shooting may shut them up for a turn, it doesn't stop the 24 inch turbo boost to contest at the end of a game.

I've done the mathhammer (for demon weapons lol) and the odds of rolling a 1 on 2 dice is about 30%. You are rolling 3 dice for wraith sight. Odds are your wraith lords are not going to be contributing their fire power every turn unless your farseer hangs out and baby sits them.

As much as I love storm guardians, they are only a liability against a list like daggers. their only target real is the Jetbikes (and his defenders if their serpent is knocked out), and due to the low model count, the size of the units, and the MEQ armor save and toughness, they are fairly resilient to flamers. If storm guardians even think about getting out of their transports... even a single prism or night spinner that can still shoot will obliterate them.

I also think you are underestimating the GJB. Low model count GJB are fairly easy to hide, and they can do some real damage to a tank if they can find rear armor with the singing spear and shuri cannon. The tl shuri pults will also do a number on any storm guardian squads which happen to be blown out of a transport. Then you have to consider that because of embolden you'll likely have to eliminate them to a man before they flee (barring awful rolling). Its a far cry to say "both your jetbike squads will probably be whiped out very quickly" ._.

Also don't forget that fortune + flat out cover saves on 2 tanks make his dragon wagons very durable to your guns. And if you don't stop them then the dragon squads will tear into your lords something fierce with doom support on the next turn. Eldrad can spam psychic powers like no other...

Really, I think you are severely underestimating Dagger's list while overestimating the abilities of your own...

If you do have a grudge match with Dagger, my money is on him...

Not to mention your estimate about how many pen hits his list can take is way off.

A chance for a regular penetrating hit to destroy a tank is 1/3 and 1/9 if it's an upgraded holofield-tank. Now also count in the fortune cover saves that mean every pen hit has about 70% to be negated(haven't done actual math, but rerollable 4+ is slightly better than 3+) and his list I daresay can take even more punishment than yours can. Of course you'll argue that once a tank is hit it can't fire so is therefore useless, except that's never true, because a mobile cover, a ram or a roadblock is never useless.

Smitty0305 wrote:
No wraithlords are not Invincible , but they can take more damage than every other eldar HS slot.

This is completely wrong, a Falcon with Holos is much much harder to kill than a Wraithlord. Pretty much anything which shoots at a Falcon needs a similar result on a D6 to do damage to a Wraithlord (a krak missile needs a 4+ either way, plasma needs 5+ either way etc etc) except for the Falcon there is another roll on top of that to determine the actual damage caused (which with Holos is often minimal) while the Wraithlord is just stuck taking the wound. When you consider that almost all of these high strength weapons are also low AP and the Lord very hard to hide behind cover there isn't much going for it. The Falcon is faster, so can avoid things if it wants to, its far smaller (well lower) so you might actually get cover with it (and can go flat out as well) and as long as you stay in the backfield away from melta its Holos make it an absolute nightmare to kill. In assault things are even more in the Falcons favour (assuming your opponent isn't an idiot and charges the Lord with S4), only being hit on 6's means the Falcon can actually survive being hit by decent combat units in some cases, whereas the Lord is just going to get crushed. The Prism and Night Spinner with Holos are also a real pain to kill, but the Falcon is slightly tougher with one extra weapon. The only real advantage of the Wraithlord is that it can just keep firing until it dies, but that's not very helpful against any half decent opponent who knows how to focus his fire. Being able to fight in combat isn't really that helpful, its not fast so will often be getting charged and not the other way around, even against units which can't hurt it it doesn't get enough attacks to win combats. There is just too much stuff which can completely smash Wraithlords now, Vendettas tear them apart, all Dark Eldar laugh in their face (with both Poisoned Weapons and Lances) and TH/SS Terminators smash them. More importantly anyone with a decent number of melta weapons can handle them, which is basically everyone.

Ideally I would go with a mix of Storm Guardians and DAVU. Storm Guardians are clearly better offensively, but they are twice the cost of a unit of Avengers who are slightly harder to kill and have better Ld (for avoiding pinning and hopefully sticking around longer). Storm Guardians still aren't that impressive though, Eldar get their killling power from their Elites and Heavies (and Serpents) and aside from getting a few flamer units you are better off investing your points elsewhere, which is why Avengers are helpful (once you have a couple of Storm Guardian they are the cheapest way to get more scoring options).

I am not trying to start anything, but I did the math on the OP list and it came out to 1862. I could be wrong, but that is what I came up with.

I do also have to say OP what is it you are looking for from this post? Are you looking for people to pat you on the back, or are you looking for criticism? I would hope that you understand that everyone has their own way to play, and their own opinion. Also, it is very rare for people to know what tactics you employ for your army, and what other armies you face. I am guessing that you play more marine MSU armies than anything else, because dark eldar, nob bikers, and tyranids sound at first glance like they would give you a very hard time. I am not saying this to question your generalship. manhood, or anything else, I am merely making an observation with 15+ years of WH40k experience.

As far as an overall critique. I think that having 3 walking models and the rest fast skimmers is not optimal (IMHO). I would be more inclined to agree that falcons, and prisms are a bit better, (I personally like falcons cause they can score with a troop squad inside) especially since that WL don't have an invulnerable save. I know that they are T8, but there are so many things that can negate that (DE poison) that it is not as cool as it used to be. Maybe as a compromise field one, and 2 falcons/prisms. That way you have the CC you desire, and if he goes down it is only 135 points.

As far as the storm guardians. I think that they aren't survivable enough to be ultra cool. I think that letting your tanks do the heavy lifting is a better way to go. That is my opinion, and yours could work as well.

I also think that you could use a couple of small scoring units for missions where you have to protect your own base. I went through the same thing with my ork bikers, because 2 small grot units allows me to throw everything at my opponent and only leave 80 points sitting on an objective.

I also think that 3 fire dragon squads is a little overkill, because you start getting diminishing returns for your investment.

I hope this critique helps. If you wish to further debate this I would be happy to.

Wow, i saw the comment in the thread you posted 'auto loss' in, saying he just saw your thread. And Seriously dude, calm down..... Your ignoring all of the advice given too you, and somehow know nothing about competitive play despite your claims.

I quite like your list in fact i would be happy to run that myself. But its not the best list by a long shot, for a start, Wraithlords pretty much aren't going to work here..... They might be able to do some damage, some games all three might survive and obliterate your opponent, but essentially, and you are seemingly the only person to disagree with this, Wraithlords don't work in Mech lists.

Anything and everything in this list is an amazing unit. They do their job with excellence and no chance.

Seriously? You obviously have nice units..... But have you ever played a game?

All Eldar players posting bad lists should do this one and win games.

And that?
I've probably done the wrong thing actually responding too you, but i really really hope your not being serious with these comments, if you are i feel really sorry for you.

Powerguy wrote:a Falcon with Holos is much much harder to kill than a Wraithlord

This is completely true. T8 is not all it used to be, with the increase of PF in assault units, the increase of poisoned weapons, and the increase of anti-armor weapons.

Finals for CO state wide Feast of Blades was yesterday and place about 6th only after having lost at the top table last round to the winner:

Congratulations!

By the way, did your Serpents have stones?