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I had a thought last night while performing my usual nightly ritual of drying and subsequently snorting children's cough syrup while staring at Magic Eye painting. It helps me relax, and I hope that through continued practice I can eventually meet Pikki Pokki, New Guinean god of dance, as I expect he could teach me to moondance. That's when it occured to me.

The Beastmen lists and queries I've been seeing all over Dakka have been for creative applications of undervalued units (for instance, Ungors), or theme armies focused around one Beasty aspect (chariots). Well maybe that's the problem. How do you think a Beastmen army would turn out if you kept it really simple? An army made up of the three most reliable units (correct me if I'm wrong) Gors, Bestigors (certainly not Worstigors) and Minotaurs (should be Minogors, just saying). With the appropriate leadership.

If you're not screwing around with big giant stompy units, friddly skirmishers, rollie chariots or squishy Ungors, don't you think this would be effective? The volume of very combat capable units you could get would be pretty devastating... Wouldn't it?

If you're taking heavy combat units, I think it's essential to have units for redirection and harassment. These extra units help you fight combats on your terms. It doesn't matter how tough you've made your particular beast unit if it gets flanked by a horde of something nasty.

So, Warhounds? Are they good for that job?

Like Red said, I think you need a diverse army to face diverse challenges. If you know you're facing a land attack from a non-magic Orc army, then load up on pure Gors and Mino. But what do you do if you face a gunline? Besides die.

I think Beastmen are okay. But magic, ranged, war machines can hurt 'em. And that's a lot of stuff.

No, you can't do that. That won't work, and doesn't cover enough bases. Warhounds will panic the rest of your army to hell, no.

Beastmen do well in combat, the problem is getting there. Most armies have some sort of physical shooting. Guess what we got? Ungor Raider Shortbows. Don't you think these guys would have figured out how to make a bigass version of their shortbow, and mount it on a machine?

The problem with the current Beastmen book is that it needs many different units to be effective, but the meat of your army (the unit(s) you will use the most) are overcosted. So when you have to take the optimal amount of your core, you discover you simply don't have enough left to get all your support units that really make your core Gors effective.

Do not attempt to be competitive with this book, I have said it before. Against a player of equal skill level that is playing a book possibly besides wood elves, the odds are against you in winning. I run a Bestigor deathstar with lots of gors and fun stuff like a Ghorgon.

It isn't competitive, no, but its fun. I love the models, so I play them.

I have tried everything with this book, and it was incredibly discouraging and frustrating when I discovered just how fethed this book was.

...hm. Well, then.

I do think there's logic in your idea, Squash. Sure, units to redirect (which, by the way, is a ton less useful in 8th) and distract are nice, but what if you just had...more fighty guys? Right?

The main problem seems to be as follows: Warhammer's mostly a big game of Rochambeau. A d6 is just too little in the way of variation (as in, above- or below-average stats don't always offer a bonus or penalty different from average ones, depending on the opponent). And Beastmen are, as so many will tell us, overpriced. I'll say that they're only slightly overpriced, but still.

So...it could work, as long as you don't play against Orcs (with fighters are about as good but cheaper) or armies like Warriors of Chaos (that beat up your guys only slightly less efficiently than they do Empire or Skaven troops).
...but I'm just talking hand-to-hand, here. Shooting will be an issue.
...mass use of the Ambush rule...? No. That rule is stupid.

@ DukeRustfield
Harpies? I mean, any Dark Elf army takes them for Warmachine hunting / giving hard cover to their vulnerable units / solo Wizard hunting, why don't Beastmen? You can even upgrade them to be scouts.

@ Karon
You don't have a General in a unit with the Standard of Discipline and a BSB in your main battle line? If you do, how do Warhounds panic your entire army again?

Also, I think you accidently said optimal when you wanted to say minimal. You should take the minimal amount of Core, to be able to spend as much points as possible on Characters and Special choices (which are the best units in the Beastmen army).

I find the card game of war to be a simple analogy, sure you can make an army of all similar units (kings for example)... But you will probably find that a balanced assortment let's you use your varying power levels to their peak efficiency, aces on kings, jacks on tens, etc.
Under that train of thought it's good to have a variety, both for your tactical flexibility, and so you arnt telegraphing your intentions to heavily on deployment. The only time this will fail you is if you run into an army that is min/maxed to be 'ard boys esque... Which usually means power loading into 1-2 of the games phases and hoping you can gimp an unsuspecting and unprepared opponent... Which really isn't that fun of a game on either end.
In the end I enjoy playing armies that I could imagine on a field of battle, and for some that 15 Beastmen chariots, or two hpa and the twin tower, but for me it's balanced armies comprised mostly of infantry with some supporting cast... This also seems to be the mentality of 8th... Where the rules mechanics have made large blocks appealing to the point that gamers consider them over the high move hammers that rocked 7th.
So, in conclusion, you might find that certain units are the best value per point, but there will always be roles that they can't fill; and that is where the less efficient units you mention come in.

...Did you just copy and paste this?

Technically I posted here first two birds, one stone.

Karon wrote:Beastmen do well in combat, the problem is getting there. Most armies have some sort of physical shooting. Guess what we got? Ungor Raider Shortbows. Don't you think these guys would have figured out how to make a bigass version of their shortbow, and mount it on a machine?

Actually, that is exactly what you would expect them to never do. Warmachines are tricky things, pretty dangerous in and of themselves, requiring a fair bit of maintenance to make certain they don't malfunction and mangle the operators. Beastmen don't even build huts for themselves...

I do agree that Beastmen are in general a few points overcosted. It seems pretty difficult to get a really solid army out of them compared to other horde armies, though they seem on paper to be ok. Bestigors are probably at least 2-3 points too expensive (or need a second attack) and gors are probably 1-2 points. When your opponent wins by destroying units, you need to either have durable smaller units or really big and cheap units. Beastmen seem to fall in the middle too much.

I find that the biggest drawback to Beastmen is the limited options which could make the list just a bit better, combined with a few over costed units.

Gors, even though I love them, are just too limited, either you give them the extra weapon, or you don't take them. I think, after playing a few games and nostalgic moments, that Gors should come with light armour for free. Then taking shields wouldn't be a total waste of points. Also, I would like to have the option to give them halberds or great weapons.

Gors can be great if you take a level 4 Shadow and cast mindrazor on them, and if they pass their hatred check, they can be really good, but then most other armies can set up something similar which is more reliable and probably cheaper, like a horde of Empire swordsmen with a warrior priest.

Same goes for Minotaurs, 55pts is ok, but you must give them great weapons because every other choice is sub optimal by comparison. Then they are 63 pts each and are still only t4 with light armour. And you always want to take 6 of them because that would be a really smashy unit and now your looking at a 428pts unit (with command) with dies as easy as 18 orc boys. Granted you could always screen them with harpies or dogs, but then your committing about 500pts for this unit and against equal points of some other powerful unit (not to mention death star) They will probably get wiped out in a round or two of combat.

But enough ranting, Beastmen can be fun, but some parts of the list are rather frustrating, mainly because so many other armies can do the same tactics for cheaper.

In 8th ed I find that using that Beastmen favour a straight forward approach. It has been mentioned above, that Beastmen are not a competetive choice for the discerining player, I maintain that Beastmen are a competetive list in the hands of a player with experience. An army with next to no armour or shooting should never be the choice for the beginning player and should only be chosen as a second Fantasy Army.

That said, I have a couple of sugestions that should help you win with a Beastmen list:


Try using the signature spell of Lore of Beasts on your Gor units - S4 and T5 with one successful cast, and higher with each successful cast.

Ambushing units more than 15 models strong screw with your opponents mind - your opponent can not just ignore this kind of threat and will be forced to break up his battle line to deal with them, allowing your army to fight only part of his at a time, or you can get a nasty rear or side charge.

If you are worried about shooting equip a Wargor with Pelt of the Shadowgave or Chalice of the Dark Rain or preferably have one with each.

For added protection against shooting run your units through a forest or other terrain feature that provides soft/hard cover - true some of your models can die but it is unlikely and even less likely enough will die to matter to your overall game plan

A Great Bray-Shaman with both the Jagged Dagger and Steel Claws provides a massive reserve of power dice.

The Cygor is the most useful Rare choice in the Beasmen book - It doesn't happen often but it can stop wizards from casting, and most importantly use its abilty to be a mobile stone thrower to throw S9 D6 wounds on enemy monsters or warmachines.

I usually find Bestigors to be next to useless because they are overpriced for a unit with WS4.

Try taking a Beastlord with a Chariot and Brass Cleaver - the size of your base has been expanded and your Beastlord can be placed in base contact with more enemy models.

Finally Beastmen work much better in larger games - 2500 points and more because this allows you to take more of our terrifying (to both the enemy models and player) rare choices.

Using these simple tips I win most of my games, and hope that they will help you and other Beastmen players win your future battles.

Bad Dice did a fantastic podcast about Beastmen. Lots of lvl 1's, blocks of gors and bestigors, lots of chariots, some harpies. Pretty much no monsters. Check it out, was really neat.