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Based on what have I read and hear, I ask myself: How can Humanity losing a war for it's survival?

Chaos is stooped for now, Abaddon is defeated on Cadia and it need some time to regain his strength.
Tau are sitting in their corner in the galaxy and doing nothing, occasionally they attack but nothing serious in the last few decades.
Orks are still a problem dough. But still even this threat can be controlled to some level.
Necrons are serious threat. Fortunately there is no large Necron force present and the new tomb world that arise are being quickly destroyed.
Tyranids are more serious threat, but their newest fleet is nearly destroyed and there is no sing of any other hive fleet entering Milky Way.
The Eldar do not disturb Humanity and Dark Eldar occasionally attack some less guarded world. But usually they are beaten.

Beside Chaos, Necrons and Tyranids I do not see some significant threat to the Imperial worlds. And giving the number of IG Regiments that can be formed, the newly founded Astartes chapters, Inquisitorial and Mechanicus forces it's little hard to imagine this.

So how is Humanity losing a war for it's survival giving all that is thrown at us?

Isn't Armeggedon in a constant state of war and turmoil thanks to Ghazkull Thraka? I'd say orks are still a huge threat especially considering that they reproduce by emitting spores when they die. They can live anywhere and everywhere and can appear on a planet which was originally thought free of them. As long as Ghazkull is still alive and doing his thing, then the orks are still a threat.

The latest Rulebook seems to make it clear that the Imperium is losing the most worlds then ever before to alien attacks. The Necrons are slowly becoming more active and the main Tyranid fleet is arriving.

There's also "emerging" new alien empires such as the Tau, Ulimeathic League, Reek, Dracolith, and Draxians.

Combine this with massive conflicts such as the 13th Black Crusade and Armageddon, Daemonic infestation, and uprisings and the Imperiums massive forces are already overstretched. There's also the slow death of the Emperor and the steady loss of technology to consider. They are a house of cards and a big enough push will topple them.

The Imperium is constantly in a state of flux.
It's current state is due to the massive crusades in the aftermath of Vandire's reign.
Many SM chapters and worlds expended massive resources in these campaigns until the Imperial armies were all but spent leaving them with a much larger territory to control with much less troops and ripe for counter-attack and piracy.
If they get pushed back eventually they will have more crusades and regain the lost worlds...
Back and forth and back and forth...
Though this time may be different something big may boil over...

Waaagh! Garaghak is on its way to wipe out the Raven Guard's Homeworld, bringing multiple dread mobs including gargants and stompas, and another two billion orks with them. (Imperial Armor 8)

Jidmah wrote:Waaagh! Garaghak is on its way to wipe out the Raven Guard's Homeworld, bringing multiple dread mobs including gargants and stompas, and another two billion orks with them. (Imperial Armor 8)

No, it's not.

The reason the Raven Guard got involved on Kastorel-Novem is that within a few decades there was a likelihood that the Waagh! could reach Deliverance, absurdly overstrength and in full union.

The Waagh! wasn't, however, aimed specifically at Deliverance.

purplefood wrote:The Imperium is constantly in a state of flux.
It's current state is due to the massive crusades in the aftermath of Vandire's reign.
Many SM chapters and worlds expended massive resources in these campaigns until the Imperial armies were all but spent leaving them with a much larger territory to control with much less troops and ripe for counter-attack and piracy.
If they get pushed back eventually they will have more crusades and regain the lost worlds...
Back and forth and back and forth...
Though this time may be different something big may boil over...

That's the one thing I don't get it. One man said that 1 Imperial planet can create 100 Guard Regiments in a matter of months. If they have recourses to do that and + to arm all those Guardsman how they lack military strength to hold the territories they now posses?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Harriticus wrote: Ulimeathic League, Reek, Dracolith, and Draxians.

Never heard about them. They must be to small of threat to be even mentioned by the Imperium.

The imperium are falling back but it's very slow. The other races are slowly chipping away at the imperium and the more they lose they easier it is for aliens to survive and become new threats.

It's not that uncommon for it to be impossible to retake a planet. Any world taken by the nids is gone, they could retake it but there would be no point. Once orks take a world wiping them out can take a long time.

As forgeworlds fall knowledge is lost. While most designs are common, there are items which can only be made on one world.

The imperium does have the military power to fight back the threats but as they defeat one enemy more apear and they start running out of resources.Each attack is harder for the imperium to stop than the last.

Currently there are more enemiess than ever and the 2 main threats (nids and crons) are rapidly getting worse. It looks like the imperium are beating them but we have no idea how many nids there really are (just that there are millions) and the necrons have barely started to awaken. There are thousands of necrons (enough to nearly take over the galaxy) and there technology beats the imperium in every way, plus we have no idea where they will appear.

When the imperium eventually falls it will fall apart quickly. Remeber all it takes is Terra to fall (the defences may be massive but both nids and crons have many more soldiers) and the astronomicon dies, transport becomes hard and unreliable while daemons are free to enter realspace.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:The Imperium is constantly in a state of flux.
It's current state is due to the massive crusades in the aftermath of Vandire's reign.
Many SM chapters and worlds expended massive resources in these campaigns until the Imperial armies were all but spent leaving them with a much larger territory to control with much less troops and ripe for counter-attack and piracy.
If they get pushed back eventually they will have more crusades and regain the lost worlds...
Back and forth and back and forth...
Though this time may be different something big may boil over...

That's the one thing I don't get it. One man said that 1 Imperial planet can create 100 Guard Regiments in a matter of months. If they have recourses to do that and + to arm all those Guardsman how they lack military strength to hold the territories they now posses?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Harriticus wrote: Ulimeathic League, Reek, Dracolith, and Draxians.

Never heard about them. They must be to small of threat to be even mentioned by the Imperium.

It takes time...
They cannot do it all at once and even if they did manage it the planet would have a much lower production rate for a while and there would have to be dozens of ships to take them to the sites where they are needed and there aren't enough ships to guard them and keep control of key space at the same time.
The IoM is overstreched and underequiped in all the wrong places.

The Imperium is 'stuck' in the 41st millenium because of printing costs.

Uhlan wrote:The Imperium is 'stuck' in the 41st millenium because of printing costs.

hahahaaaa!

Brother Coa wrote:Chaos is stooped for now, Abaddon is defeated on Cadia and it need some time to regain his strength.

actually no ,imperials haven't defeated the 13th black crusade
in fact chaos is winning the war for cadia and medusa campain is proof that chaos have broken the cadian gate

For the most part, the imepirum isn't finding new worlds, and aren't always able to take back lost worlds. This means that they'll always lose more than they gain, which is technically losing, just very slowly.

Devastator wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Chaos is stooped for now, Abaddon is defeated on Cadia and it need some time to regain his strength.

actually no ,imperials haven't defeated the 13th black crusade
in fact chaos is winning the war for cadia and medusa campain is proof that chaos have broken the cadian gate

Er, no they're not.

Chaos seized large amounts of ground on Cadia, but didn't manage to take the entire planet or clear the space defenses(which are what, alongside the Pylons on the surface stabilizing the pathway out of the Eye of Terror comprise the Cadian Gate).

Hell, the Chaos fleet around Cadia got thoroughly trounced as well it seems--so their supply chain is effectively broken, their troops are trapped planetside on Cadia and there's still plenty of loyal Imperial troopers on the ground.

The Medusa "campaign", incidentally, really had nothing to do with "Chaos breaking the Cadian Gate". It was a totally different thing, wherein a Warp storm was approaching a planet. Of course Chaos is gonna get involved there.

Kanluwen wrote:

Devastator wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Chaos is stooped for now, Abaddon is defeated on Cadia and it need some time to regain his strength.

actually no ,imperials haven't defeated the 13th black crusade
in fact chaos is winning the war for cadia and medusa campain is proof that chaos have broken the cadian gate

Er, no they're not.

Chaos seized large amounts of ground on Cadia, but didn't manage to take the entire planet or clear the space defenses(which are what, alongside the Pylons on the surface stabilizing the pathway out of the Eye of Terror comprise the Cadian Gate).

Hell, the Chaos fleet around Cadia got thoroughly trounced as well it seems--so their supply chain is effectively broken, their troops are trapped planetside on Cadia and there's still plenty of loyal Imperial troopers on the ground.

The Medusa "campaign", incidentally, really had nothing to do with "Chaos breaking the Cadian Gate". It was a totally different thing, wherein a Warp storm was approaching a planet. Of course Chaos is gonna get involved there.

I totally agree.

Chaos is being pushed back after his first successes during the 13th Black Crusade.

Here is what the armada supplement for BFG says about the outcome of the crusade: "Deprived of their fleets, the traitors's victory is quite futile. They are now blocked on these planets, waiting for an Exterminatus as soon as the Navy will be able to dispatch one of its ships."

So, the traitors did win the first stages of the 13th black crusade and were able to breack out of the Eye, but they are now trapped on the worlds they attacked and the Cadian Gate is once more secure.

And Kanluwen is right, the medusa campaign had nothing to do with the black crusade, it took place in a completely different corner of the galaxy.

Brother Coa wrote:That's the one thing I don't get it. One man said that 1 Imperial planet can create 100 Guard Regiments in a matter of months. If they have recourses to do that and + to arm all those Guardsman how they lack military strength to hold the territories they now posses?

The codex quotes in question go "The Red Corsairs descend upon the Dentor system slaughtering millions. Over one hundred new regiments are raised." and "Chaos renegades raid Gothic Sector. One hundred and fifty additional Imperial Guard regiments to be raised." Where this person could possibly be getting the "1 Imperial planet" and "matter of months" parts from is beyond me.

Feel free to stop misquoting any time you feel like it.

Raxmei wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That's the one thing I don't get it. One man said that 1 Imperial planet can create 100 Guard Regiments in a matter of months. If they have recourses to do that and + to arm all those Guardsman how they lack military strength to hold the territories they now posses?

The codex quotes in question go "The Red Corsairs descend upon the Dentor system slaughtering millions. Over one hundred new regiments are raised." and "Chaos renegades raid Gothic Sector. One hundred and fifty additional Imperial Guard regiments to be raised." Where this person could possibly be getting the "1 Imperial planet" and "matter of months" parts from is beyond me.

Feel free to stop misquoting any time you feel like it.

Then how much Regiments can one planet produce in a state of emergency?

Brother Coa wrote:

Raxmei wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That's the one thing I don't get it. One man said that 1 Imperial planet can create 100 Guard Regiments in a matter of months. If they have recourses to do that and + to arm all those Guardsman how they lack military strength to hold the territories they now posses?

The codex quotes in question go "The Red Corsairs descend upon the Dentor system slaughtering millions. Over one hundred new regiments are raised." and "Chaos renegades raid Gothic Sector. One hundred and fifty additional Imperial Guard regiments to be raised." Where this person could possibly be getting the "1 Imperial planet" and "matter of months" parts from is beyond me.

Feel free to stop misquoting any time you feel like it.

Then how much Regiments can one planet produce in a state of emergency?

How many Guard regiments can one planet produce in a state of emergency?

Probably one or two for most 'normal', non Hive/Forge worlds, dependent on the size of the planet, the available armaments, etc.

But they have PDFs to hold ground until the Imperial Guard arrive anyways.

Kanluwen wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Raxmei wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That's the one thing I don't get it. One man said that 1 Imperial planet can create 100 Guard Regiments in a matter of months. If they have recourses to do that and + to arm all those Guardsman how they lack military strength to hold the territories they now posses?

The codex quotes in question go "The Red Corsairs descend upon the Dentor system slaughtering millions. Over one hundred new regiments are raised." and "Chaos renegades raid Gothic Sector. One hundred and fifty additional Imperial Guard regiments to be raised." Where this person could possibly be getting the "1 Imperial planet" and "matter of months" parts from is beyond me.

Feel free to stop misquoting any time you feel like it.

Then how much Regiments can one planet produce in a state of emergency?

How many Guard regiments can one planet produce in a state of emergency?

Probably one or two for most 'normal', non Hive/Forge worlds, dependent on the size of the planet, the available armaments, etc.

But they have PDFs to hold ground until the Imperial Guard arrive anyways.

One or two seems enough, when you have 10 planets that's about 10-20 Regiments.
Yes, every planet have PDF. But they have only the most basic training because they are trained to hold the planet until help arrives.
The funny thing is that I have never seen one PDF Regiment except the Tartarus 37'th. And they where Imperial Gaurdsman. Is PDF different from the Guard when it comes to equipment and recourses?
But I doubt that they will send their PDF to help neighboring world defend against Ork invasion.

Brother Coa wrote:
The funny thing is that I have never seen one PDF Regiment except the Tartarus 37'th. And they where Imperial Gaurdsman. Is PDF different from the Guard when it comes to equipment and recourses?
But I doubt that they will send their PDF to help neighboring world defend against Ork invasion.

Yes, when it comes to equipment and resources, the PDF is definitely different from the guard. A world will in almost all cases, give a far better gear and training to its guard regiments than its PDF. Yes, I know that in some worlds, like Ultramar, or Cadia, the PDf is a very efficient fighting force with an excellent equipment, but they are exceptions, not the rule.

And AFAIK, the PDF will always say on its world of origin. They are never shipped away for a field action.

Cadia doesn't have a PDF in all honesty.

They actually keep 5-6 Cadian Shock Regiments permanently on the planet; they're referred to as the "Interior Guard".

And what about Space Marines? In various conflicts it's always they who in the end lead to victory. In most important battles so far, few Space Marines at the Right place and time are enough to secure victory for the Imperium.
And since they have been given more world to protect and chapters to make it seems that this will bring some stability into the Imperium.

Tyranids are more serious threat, but their newest fleet is nearly destroyed and there is no sing of any other hive fleet entering Milky Way.

Not true, Leviathan is still a huge problem. It gains in strength nearly everyday from the Ork's yummy mushrooms they love to shoot everywhere when they die. The main fleet is accompanied by the swarmlord which is a beating to any of the tyranids enemies. Not to mention the countless splinter-fleets that are created when the tyranid are scattered, these prey on less defended worlds and gain power very quickly due to their tactics.

Brother Coa wrote:

Harriticus wrote: Ulimeathic League, Reek, Dracolith, and Draxians.

Never heard about them. They must be to small of threat to be even mentioned by the Imperium.

They're mentioned in the same sentence as the Tau so I'd imagine they're about as dangerous as them. That is to say not all that dangerous individually but they do cause a bit of damage, sort of a "death by a thousand papercuts" sort of thing.

Brother Coa wrote:

Harriticus wrote: Ulimeathic League, Reek, Dracolith, and Draxians.

Never heard about them. They must be to small of threat to be even mentioned by the Imperium.

There are many, many alien races, and some have their own small empires. Individually, they're not much of a threat to Imperium, but when it all adds up, it's not an insignifant factor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:Based on what have I read and hear, I ask myself: How can Humanity losing a war for it's survival?

Chaos is stooped for now, Abaddon is defeated on Cadia and it need some time to regain his strength.
Tau are sitting in their corner in the galaxy and doing nothing, occasionally they attack but nothing serious in the last few decades.
Orks are still a problem dough. But still even this threat can be controlled to some level.
Necrons are serious threat. Fortunately there is no large Necron force present and the new tomb world that arise are being quickly destroyed.
Tyranids are more serious threat, but their newest fleet is nearly destroyed and there is no sing of any other hive fleet entering Milky Way.
The Eldar do not disturb Humanity and Dark Eldar occasionally attack some less guarded world. But usually they are beaten.

Beside Chaos, Necrons and Tyranids I do not see some significant threat to the Imperial worlds. And giving the number of IG Regiments that can be formed, the newly founded Astartes chapters, Inquisitorial and Mechanicus forces it's little hard to imagine this.

So how is Humanity losing a war for it's survival giving all that is thrown at us?

Orks, in fact, outnumber humans at Galactic scale, and their entire society is geared for war, so it's hard to say that they're "controlled".

It is speculated that the Tyranid Hive fleets so far encountered are only a vanguard of the TRUE Tyranid main force which has not been encountered yet. When you add up resurgent Necrons, and number of small alien Empires rising up, the fact that Astronomicon is growing dim, it does look grim.

True, it's often quoted that if the orcs ever united rather than bicker amongst themselves, humanity would be doomed in short order.

To the OP, I think really this issue is one of the core concepts of what 40k is about, and really what differentiates it from practically every other major sci-fi franchise, that there isn't any light at the end of the tunnel. There may be the odd victory, or reclamation of lost planets, but humanity lost its one shot at greatness and is on a slow and painful slide to oblivion.

Dan Abnett wrote something similar on his blog a while back, Aaron Dembski-Bowden writes it down far more eloquently than I could:

http://www.bscreview.com/2011/02/back-to-the-future-with-a-warhammer/

Brother Coa wrote:And what about Space Marines? In various conflicts it's always they who in the end lead to victory. In most important battles so far, few Space Marines at the Right place and time are enough to secure victory for the Imperium.
And since they have been given more world to protect and chapters to make it seems that this will bring some stability into the Imperium.

Even the Ultramarines are starting to lose their immortality, it's called the Fall of Damnos for a reason.

Azure wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:And what about Space Marines? In various conflicts it's always they who in the end lead to victory. In most important battles so far, few Space Marines at the Right place and time are enough to secure victory for the Imperium.
And since they have been given more world to protect and chapters to make it seems that this will bring some stability into the Imperium.

Even the Ultramarines are starting to lose their immortality, it's called the Fall of Damnos for a reason.

In fairness to the Ulramarines, not many chapters have faced them enough to have much experience with them.
They did well on Damnos and it was only ever going to be a fighting evacuation... the only place they did badly was saving Sicarius from death which frankly is inexcusable.

Brother Coa wrote:Tyranids are more serious threat, but their newest fleet is nearly destroyed and there is no sing of any other hive fleet entering Milky Way.

Maybe read the 5th edition codex some time?

One tiny part of Leviathan is stuck at Octarius. The rest of the hive Fleet is rampaging around having a good ol' time, destroying Space Marine homeworlds, random planet,s and even a major Forgeworld (Gryphonne IV). There's also quite a few new Hive Fleets arriving, two of which are making a parallel path right for Terra (due to the Astronimican drawing the proverbial moth to the flame).

Not to mention, the Imperium is constantly ding fighting retreats. The galactic map with descriptions of conflicts with leviathan always describe the Imperium fighting off a hoard and causing mass casualties on the Tyranids before fleeing, which is kind of pointless considering all the dead from both sides just get consumed then as well as the planet. A fighting retreat is pretty beneficial to the Tyranids.

The other big threat of the Tyranids is that they come from outside the galaxy.

For the most part, the galaxy is a 2D structure. That allows you to create a defensive line against hostile forces within the galaxy.

But, the Tyranids aren't restricted to staying within this 2D structure. They're free to attack Terra from either above or below, bypassing most of humanity's defenses. And, since we don't have fleets in that direction, they'd be little to no warning it was coming.