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If I were to do grey knights, which I'm seriously considering

This is how I'd run them.

HQ
Coteaz 100

Elites
5 Purifiers- 2 psy cannons, 1 halberd 142
Rhino 40
5 Purifiers- 2 Psy cannons, 1 halberd 142
Rhino 40

Troops
3 Henchmen- 3 meltas 30
Razorback- Las cannon twin linked plasma 80
3 Henchmen- 3 meltas 30
Razorback- Las cannon twin linked plasma 80
3 Henchmen- 3 meltas 30
Razorback- Las cannon twin linked plasma 80
3 Henchmen- 3 meltas 30
Razorback- Las cannon twin linked plasma 80
10 man Strike Squad- 2 Psy cannons, demon hammer 230
Rhino 40
10 man Strike Squad- 2 Psy cannons, demon hammer 230
Rhino 40

Heavy
Dreadnaught- 2 Twin linked auto cannons, psy bolts 135
Dreadnaught- 2 Twin linked auto cannons, psy bolts 135
Dreadnaught- 2 Twin linked auto cannons, psy bolts 135

1849

Coteaz chills with whoever. It would be nice to get a librarian, but I'll live without one. 11 vehicles, 43 infantry, up to 8 scoring units, 8 psy cannons, 12 meltas, 30 grey knights in combat, and 12 S8 TL AC shots, and 4 las cannon shots that can't be shaken or stunned a turn. It will beat face and take names.

Looks really nasty nothing my DE would like to face

how hard would it be to get psybolt ammo on all the 'knight' units and does it affect the psycannons? i know it would give you a fair amount of S5 shooting to take out infantry prior to assaults, but the main question is if you can take psybolt ammo and it makes all of your psycannons S8...are the dreddys even necessary at that point?

No, Psybolt ammo does not affect psycannons... they already fire it.

Nice list how did you work out the points cost

yermom wrote:If I were to do grey knights, which I'm seriously considering

This is how I'd run them.

HQ
Coteaz 100
Good way to allow melta access, he's in mine as well
Elites
5 Purifiers- 2 psy cannons, 1 halberd 142
Rhino 40
5 Purifiers- 2 Psy cannons, 1 halberd 142
Rhino 40
I think it's a mistake to not fully loadout your weapons here, take your master crafted daemonhammer and fill the rest out with halberds, it's only 2 points
Troops
3 Henchmen- 3 meltas 30
Razorback- Las cannon twin linked plasma 80
3 Henchmen- 3 meltas 30
Razorback- Las cannon twin linked plasma 80
3 Henchmen- 3 meltas 30
Razorback- Las cannon twin linked plasma 80
3 Henchmen- 3 meltas 30
Razorback- Las cannon twin linked plasma 80
I think this loadout is a poor choice personnally. If the tank blows, the unit is likely lost to the explosion. Also, if you're getting your meltas in range, you aren't firing that lascannon probably. The chimera is a better choice for this unit, it lets your advancing wave have an AV12 front, you get fire points to use the meltas from (disembarking wont be immediate suicide), etc.

10 man Strike Squad- 2 Psy cannons, demon hammer 230
Rhino 40
10 man Strike Squad- 2 Psy cannons, demon hammer 230
Rhino 40
Mastercraft for 5 points. You're going to have the hammer on the justicar to get his 2 attacks some use, and you don't want to miss if you're swinging on vehicles/etc.

Heavy
Dreadnaught- 2 Twin linked auto cannons, psy bolts 135
Dreadnaught- 2 Twin linked auto cannons, psy bolts 135
Dreadnaught- 2 Twin linked auto cannons, psy bolts 135
I imagine this will be a staple of every list, looks good
1849

Coteaz chills with whoever. It would be nice to get a librarian, but I'll live without one. 11 vehicles, 43 infantry, up to 8 scoring units, 8 psy cannons, 12 meltas, 30 grey knights in combat, and 12 S8 TL AC shots, and 4 las cannon shots that can't be shaken or stunned a turn. It will beat face and take names.

Added comments within your post, my comments in bold. Overall, it's similar to what I've come up with, but I think you're making a mistake with the las/plas razors. If you plan on having the razor do the firing, don't put melta's inside.

Stick to daemons, leave the GK's to me

Target-

I see your point about the chimeras, that would be a nice change. And I rechecked my point totals with the actual book today (I made that list from memory) and the henchmen were off by 12 points per unit. That puts me 47 points over and the easiest thing to do about that is to drop 2 razors in favor of chimeras.

That doesn't leave me with many points to trick out my squads. Do you think I should drop another razor down to a chimera? Or even both? The only reason I'm hesitant to do that is because the razors give me some more long range fire power, and take some pressure off my dreads. I don't know if it's a good move making them chimeras.

Master craft is a good idea for 5 ponts.

Also, I agree on the purifiers, just didn't have the points.

So basically what I'm asking is should I cut down to 1 razor and 3 chimeras to get my squads a little more combat power. Should I go all the way and drop all the razors down to chimeras, and do whatever with the last 25 points? Or should I leave it 2 and 2, with special combat weapons?

Haha demons don't stand a chance anymore

just make them all Chimeras. I like it!

I'd take a look at thinning those GKSS units down. I'm not sure you really need 10 in those units. Thats 200 points you could save to begin with.

I'm not sure you really need more long ranged fire power, those dreads will have to be fired on from range, meaning through/over all the rhino's and chimeras. Between obscured saves and fortitude, you'll likely be pretty resilient.

Also, if the AT is directed at those long range dreads, your up front guys in chimeras/rhinos are getting a free pass to the promised land!

Oh yea, to the direct question: I agree with Tom, all chimeras!

Alright lol sold! All chimeras it is! Now what to do with the lasst 25 points...

yermom wrote:Alright lol sold! All chimeras it is! Now what to do with the lasst 25 points...

Such a bandwagoner. Your daemons are ashamed of you right now. ASHAMED.

take a squad of Orangutans!!!!!! lol!

I know I'm just awful. At least I don't play guard and I'm now starting grey knights like this one guy I know.

Tom me and Matt are going to run the monkey army! Coteaz and 50 monkeys 1850 exactly

yermom wrote:I know I'm just awful. At least I don't play guard and I'm now starting grey knights like this one guy I know.

Tom me and Matt are going to run the monkey army! Coteaz and 50 monkeys 1850 exactly

Psh, Both GK's and IG were my armies during 3rd/4th edition, when they were fricking terrible. It's time to get my come-up'ns!

(Note, my eldar and necrons are still shelved)

can you add a monkey to each of your multi-melta henchman squads or are they not allowed to be combined within units when you make them troop choices???

Mutli-Monkey Units in Chimeras!!!!!!!!

Don't the monkeys make the other henchmens weapons better?

that's what you can do with your extra 25 pts. if possible!!!! lol!!!!

Yeah... sure... That was just your plan from the start. At least I have the balls not to play leaf blower

Agree with argetawg. You should slim the Grey Knight Strike Squadas down and use the points to do a few things:

Purifiers should get a master crafted daemonhammer also but do not put it on the sarge because if the sarge dies from perils you lost it. Then get 2 Halberds so you have 2 psycannon, mastercrafted daemonhammer and 2 halberds.

Buff up the Melta henchmen squads to at least 5 and give them Chimeras so they have fire points to shoot out of without getting out. Getting out of your vehicle is a really bad idea when you have a tshirt save and you die if the wind blows on you funny. You might have to to kill a land raider somtimes. If you want fill out a unit to 10 and give them bolt guns.

If your going to run las plas razors just fill them with 5 person hench squads. No point in melta since no fire points and you don't want to get out unless your meltaing a land raider but then your moving your las plas razor 12 and not firing.

yermom wrote:Yeah... sure... That was just your plan from the start. At least I have the balls not to play leaf blower

Psh, you're just mad you can't ride your fatecrusher to victory anymore

Btw, I probably won't make it to Colonial, just seems like too much money too soon, also a tad tired of playing the guard.

Edit: And to be honest, my plan with guard originally was to play a whacky drop-style last chancers list, which was a ton of fun to play and model. But then I got tank happy....25 hulls later...and here we are.

Why would GW make a box with 9 tanks?! Why would they do that to me?!

Tom you can and it adds a little bit to the unit. I'd run the monkeys as a fun army, I really doubt it would be competitive at all.

Avariel- Thanks for the input. I only like the 10 man squad because it lets me combat squad if I want, and it unlocks a second psy cannon. I don't really think adding bodies to my henchmen squads does much. And I already have 25 points left after giving my grey knights proper wargear to beef the henchmen up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Haha Target yeah I'm just messing, I know you had your guard from 4th ed. My fate crusher is all sad faced now

And it's a shame you aren't coming down to colonial but I totally understand. Maybe now you can let someone else actually win a GT.

Chimeras are the way to go for Inquisitorial henchmen. Also, for your 10-man strike squad, I don't care what you have to cut, but give them psybolt ammo. Master-crafting those daemonhammers are secondary, after the psybolt ammo.

oh....I was just thinking that you can add one monkey to each of your 3 man multi-melta henchmen squads in Chimera's.

It would be fun to see possible rending multi-melta shots! lol!

Strength 8 plus 2D6 plus a D3 for armour pen!

or the monkey can extend their range by 6 inches

Jy2 I think I agree. And I now have something to spend my last 25 points on (in addition to whatever else I have to cut I suppose)

I think what's even more nasty is the 36" multi melta, or the 24" melta gun.

yermom wrote:Jy2 I think I agree. And I now have something to spend my last 25 points on (in addition to whatever else I have to cut I suppose)

I think what's even more nasty is the 36" multi melta, or the 24" melta gun.

Psybolt = no.

It's too many points for what you get. On interceptor squads or in a foot army, I love it, in a mech army, no way.

Rhino's have 2 firepoints, your psycannons won't be letting mere stormbolters pop out. When you do get out, it'll be to shoot then charge. Half the time, you won't want to shoot because you'll deny yourself a charge. Either way, you'll probably only fire these once ideally, maybe twice in a game. Not worth 20 points. YMMV, but thats my opinion of it.

If you don't win colonial even with me bowing out to give you a shot, I will tease you mercilessly. :-p

That was pretty much my logic on it Target. But I mean since I already have most of the points I don't really see why not.

Colonial is going to be my demon's last GT for awhile. At least until either a new book comes out or grey knights start sucking so no one brings them.

yermom wrote:Jy2 I think I agree. And I now have something to spend my last 25 points on (in addition to whatever else I have to cut I suppose)

I think what's even more nasty is the 36" multi melta, or the 24" melta gun.

Jokaero's do not belong in a competitive army. The chance of you getting any of the powers you would want is only a 1 in 6 at the cost of 35pts! It is just not an efficient gamble.

But the worst thing about the Jokaero is that it will force you to play differently. The temptation of sitting still to fire a lascannon is just too great when you should almost always be moving to get those melta-henchmen into range.

If you are considering this army for tournament/competitive play, do not take the jokaero. It is not worth it.

targetawg wrote:
Psybolt = no.

It's too many points for what you get. On interceptor squads or in a foot army, I love it, in a mech army, no way.

What this army is lacking is anti-infantry. S5 stormbolter-spam is no joke. It is highly effective, especially in 10-man squads. While I wouldn't recommend it as a must-have in smaller units, psycannons and psybolt ammo is on larger units. As a matter of fact, it is most efficient/cost-effective in 10-man units than in any other unit.

Besides, do you think those knights will be mounted in their rhinos forever?

targetawg wrote:
Rhino's have 2 firepoints, your psycannons won't be letting mere stormbolters pop out. When you do get out, it'll be to shoot then charge. Half the time, you won't want to shoot because you'll deny yourself a charge. Either way, you'll probably only fire these once ideally, maybe twice in a game. Not worth 20 points. YMMV, but thats my opinion of it.

What are you talking about? Stormbolters are assault weapons. You can always shoot and charge with them (provided the enemy is in range). Besides, stormbolter tactics is not shoot and charge (unless you know you can wipe out the unit without getting counter-charged). It is shoot, move away and then shoot again (until you can't get out of your opponent's threat range).

You don't know how effective S5 stormbolters are until you use them.

Jy2 Jokaeros were never really up for consideration in my list. I was jusst talking about the unit in general with a friend.

Anyway, I'll let target answer you with his rebuttle of why he thinks psy bolts are bad. I can vouch for him not sucking so his opinion does mean something, but I also know you are no slouch either.

But what he meant by his last phrase was that shooting the stormbolters may take you out of charge range if the enemy is smart and removes the closest models. Also the tactic of moving back and shooting is a great tactic. but one that can only be employed against an aggressive opponent. Few competitive armies are aggressive, orks and demons being the exceptions. Grey knights dont even have to try and beat them however so it wont matter. Against everything else, you have to advance on them. You don't have the range to do otherwise and they don't have the incentive to come towards you. So, really moving back and shooting while ideal is a rare situation.

Combat squading Grey Knight Shrike squads is actually pretty terrible because of the 24 inch range on psy cannons. its not like a tactical where you have a 48 range heavy weapon to shoot in the objective camping squad.

Maybe I been playing many small units Space Wolves too long but the way to run Grey Knight Strike Squads would be 5 with Master crafted Daemon Hammer on the Sarge and a psycannon in a Rhino for 165 pts.

Servitors have an issue with mindlock if an inquisitor is not present so if you want servitors only one unit to put with Coteaz. 3 Plasma cannon servitors are good here because they synergize well with Coteaz's anti deepstrike ability so you have a mini executioner. Adding 2 Jokaero to the unit would be good to give you anti tank if there is no infantry to shoot with plasma cannons.

yermom wrote:Jy2 Jokaeros were never really up for consideration in my list. I was jusst talking about the unit in general with a friend.

Anyway, I'll let target answer you with his rebuttle of why he thinks psy bolts are bad. I can vouch for him not sucking so his opinion does mean something, but I also know you are no slouch either.

But what he meant by his last phrase was that shooting the stormbolters may take you out of charge range if the enemy is smart and removes the closest models. Also the tactic of moving back and shooting is a great tactic. but one that can only be employed against an aggressive opponent. Few competitive armies are aggressive, orks and demons being the exceptions. Grey knights dont even have to try and beat them however so it wont matter. Against everything else, you have to advance on them. You don't have the range to do otherwise and they don't have the incentive to come towards you. So, really moving back and shooting while ideal is a rare situation.

Exactly, here's how I see your typical game playing out (and mind you this is geared towards tournaments since I know thats what yermom tends towards).

Your meta is primarily mech. You may have 1 game out of 5 not against a nearly full mech opponent.

Turn 1: Deploy, move forward, fire psycannons from inside (moving 6 inchs)
Turn 2: Identical to above
Turn 3: Possibly a charge, probably more shoot and scoot.
Turn 4: Get out, charge. If you fire your stormbolters, they may remove casualties on you and deny your charge, leaving you stranded in the open. So you may not want to fire them prior to charging.
Turn 5: Combat is over, you're maybe firing again.

That's a super simplified scenario I acknowledge, but from my experience thats how I see it working, you'll have 2 turns you can fire them (2 turns will be moving in transport at least) and you may not even want to. In my mind, doing this for 20 points just isn't worth it in any world.

Now I acknowledge that psybolts are an interesting upgrade, but I see them being more "fun" than "competitive" in anything other than some sort of interceptor heavy/foot build that is going to be accessing them almost every turn.

Also, I agree on Jokaeros to an extent, they have their uses, and may find their way into my competitive build (and a few other peoples I made the mistake of chatting about it with!). But they don't belong in any unit that plans on moving, for the exact reasons jy2 mentions. It's the same reason las/plas guard mech vets look good on paper, but in reality just aren't so good. You end up with seriously conflicted roles.