Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

(Mould?) I mean, is it because of all the precursors such as making the model, cutting it up into useable, buildable bits, or what? I mean even if it costed $100,000 dollars, thats what? 100 customers for GW? How can it cost so much to press some plastic into a metal thing (or whatever) and make a mold? Ive molded my hand into concrete

On a side note why is intense pressure required on the molds too? Id just like to learn about the whole process if anyone can shed some light on it. Dont just google search it and post the link either I mean I wanna have a discussion

Pressure is required to minimize warping. Also, the molds for plastic figures are more detailed than the average mold anybody can make at home. Sure I can make a mold of a Space Marine with Sculpey, but it's not the same. The molds are expensive because they're heavy metal, if I recall correctly. I'm assuming they're laser-cut.

Brother SRM wrote:Pressure is required to minimize warping. Also, the molds for plastic figures are more detailed than the average mold anybody can make at home. Sure I can make a mold of a Space Marine with Sculpey, but it's not the same. The molds are expensive because they're heavy metal, if I recall correctly. I'm assuming they're laser-cut.

Probably machined by a CNC machine. Also, it appears that GW uses aluminum to make their molds.

The expense is for several reasons (also, I'm not suggesting you copy GW's IP, this is just for illustrative purposes):
1) someone has to design the mold, including how the plastic flows into the mold and how air escapes. It's easy for a single bolter, but a little more difficult when you've got arms, legs, torsos, and all kinds of high-detail parts. You can't have air pockets, because those create bad sprues.

2) the mold has to be used for many, many iterations. You could probably get as many bolters as you need from a greenstuff mold without significant loss of quality. Not so when you're making thousands of sprues over a relatively short period of time.

3) most importantly, an individual model has to be broken up into multiple parts. Sprues are basically 2D (a bit of a third dimension), but a full Space Marine probably couldn't be made by casting/injection alone. While GW probably generally has a good idea how to deconstruct a space marine, they want to do so in as few steps as possible (less parts = easier to design a mold). This means someone has to take the concept design (e.g. the Dreadknight) and figure out how to break it apart so that it 'fits' in a sprue.

The guys that make molds for GW are probably pretty good at this, but I'd guess they probably make 1-2 "test" molds before the production mold is delivered to GW.

...Just a few thoughts. Never did any games stuff, but injection molding is pretty standard, whether it's car parts or miniatures.

You need the pressure to force the plastic into all parts. With out the pressure you get bubbles and the fine detail is lost as it does not fully get into all crevices.

Also resin, and I think plastic, actually solidifies at a fast rate, so it is possible if you simply gravity pour it will harden half way in.

biccat wrote:
2) the mold has to be used for many, many iterations. You could probably get as many bolters as you need from a greenstuff mold without significant loss of quality. Not so when you're making thousands of sprues over a relatively short period of time.

To add onto this, I've seen some other plastic companies with industrial molds. These are huge ass machines that turns out thousands upon thousands of sprues per day and almost entirely automated. The amount of precision work that goes into making a single sprue mold is staggering, hence the cost.

I have been sufficiently educated

Jeez, laser cut super high pressure super high heat super high production rate super high detail MOLDS!

Jaon wrote:(Mould?) I mean, is it because of all the precursors such as making the model, cutting it up into useable, buildable bits, or what? I mean even if it costed $100,000 dollars, thats what? 100 customers for GW? How can it cost so much to press some plastic into a metal thing (or whatever) and make a mold? Ive molded my hand into concrete

On a side note why is intense pressure required on the molds too? Id just like to learn about the whole process if anyone can shed some light on it. Dont just google search it and post the link either I mean I wanna have a discussion

Plastic molds for sprues are gigantic metal things that weigh many hundreds of pounds. They are so big that generally at plastics factories they are handled and moved by overhead cranes attached to the ceiling.

They are that big to withstand pressure and heat that comes with injection molding and do it over and over many tens or hundreds of thousands of times.

There's the cost to design the mini's, then figure out how to cut them up to get them into sprues, then designing the mold, then building the mold. Also, the machines themselves that the mold is put into are very expensive indeed.

All of the above and then some. If you have a chance to look at the new space hulk spruces you would understand, I stared at them for hours trying to figure out what genius designed them. Creating such fine models without the use of undercuts (can't have those in injection molding)is next to miraculous, without computer aided design it would be impossible.

Besides, the cost of production (design, molds, plastic) is insignificant as far as GW pricing goes. They charge based on quality of the pieces and market demand, not on production cost. Not that they don't use these things as excuses sometimes. You will rarely see GW attempt to legitimize pricing based on cost.....because they can't.

Not to mention cleaning and maintenance crews.

Add in the fact that they dont just make one mold. They make multiple copys of the same mold so the machine can spit out as many as possible per cast. A long time ago, I saw some pics of one of the machines they had in Menphis( I think), It held 4 molds at a time. Depending on demand, more machines are dedicated to the same project. So right now Im guessing most of the machines are cranking out GK related molds in anticipation of massive sales next month.

Andrew1975 wrote:All of the above and then some. If you have a chance to look at the new space hulk spruces you would understand, I stared at them for hours trying to figure out what genius designed them. Creating such fine models without the use of undercuts (can't have those in injection molding)is next to miraculous, without computer aided design it would be impossible.

Besides, the cost of production (design, molds, plastic) is insignificant as far as GW pricing goes. They charge based on quality of the pieces and market demand, not on production cost. Not that they don't use these things as excuses sometimes. You will rarely see GW attempt to legitimize pricing based on cost.....because they can't.

I do in fact own the latest edition of Space Hulk, and boy did I go to trouble to get it.

I found the models, while being sturdy and much finer detailed than ALL others (barring forge world) to still have imperfections, it was as if someone had taken a photo of a terminator from the front, then put it into a 3D computer. A lot of the small items on the terminator warped backwards, such as the skulls hanging between their legs. This was not a defect of my own box, it was in all of them. The sticks on the arms also required cutting to fit into the hole, as well as the genestealer chest pieces.

What are undercuts?

When a plastic model kit company goes bankrupt, first thing which will happen is that someone will buy the molds. There are lots of molds dating from the 1960's still being used to produce model kits, and they may have moved through several manufacturers...

There is also the case that GW switched to a new technique that allows for certain parts to have hollow components, which supposedly increased the cost a bit.

Let's not forget that this is a europrean company, with unions. This isn't made by a chinese 10 year old, and so prices will go up, that's how other companies keep prices low.

Jaon wrote:What are undercuts?

The reason why those details go back flat to body of the marine. You can't do a true rounded surface with a single piece of plastic because it's impossible to do undercuts with a two-piece mold. If, for example, that skull detail actually rounded in the back, you wouldn't be able to get the model out of the mold afterwards because you're trying to pull a solid piece of plastic out of a solid metal mold that curves around the undercut detail. This is one advantage metal models still have - since they're made with flexible rubber or silicon molds, you can bend and flex the mold to extract pieces with undercut details.

Andrew1975 wrote:Besides, the cost of production (design, molds, plastic) is insignificant as far as GW pricing goes. They charge based on quality of the pieces and market demand, not on production cost. Not that they don't use these things as excuses sometimes. You will rarely see GW attempt to legitimize pricing based on cost.....because they can't.

Not insignificant. GW will always charge more for a model than their cost. If the models cost more to make than GW can charge for them, there's no reason to make the models (loss leaders notwithstanding, but they'd have to be a small part of the budget).

Plastic injection molding is expensive as it requires very expensive machines to run. A hurdle too large for most companies back in the day.

Much metallic 'casting' can be done on the cheap in your back yard and for this reason was the basis for most miniature manufacturers using soft metal instead of plastic in the first place.

Several Chinese plastic injection companies have now offered their services to many miniature manufacturers. They have the machines that most miniature companies could never afford and many also offer engineering and design services as well. Because of this, a good many companies with a decent fan base (sales) are moving to plastic as it's far easier and cheaper to ship. Further lowering the price to consumers, umm ...theoretically anyway.

biccat wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:Besides, the cost of production (design, molds, plastic) is insignificant as far as GW pricing goes. They charge based on quality of the pieces and market demand, not on production cost. Not that they don't use these things as excuses sometimes. You will rarely see GW attempt to legitimize pricing based on cost.....because they can't.

Not insignificant. GW will always charge more for a model than their cost. If the models cost more to make than GW can charge for them, there's no reason to make the models (loss leaders notwithstanding, but they'd have to be a small part of the budget).

A necessity in any enterprise surely.

GW charge more because they have to subsidise their retail chain. Their margin per product is high naturally, their profit as a company significantly less so.

Without said retail chain there would not be the player base that we take for granted or indeed the GW that we all know and (don't) love.

notprop wrote:

biccat wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:Besides, the cost of production (design, molds, plastic) is insignificant as far as GW pricing goes. They charge based on quality of the pieces and market demand, not on production cost. Not that they don't use these things as excuses sometimes. You will rarely see GW attempt to legitimize pricing based on cost.....because they can't.

Not insignificant. GW will always charge more for a model than their cost. If the models cost more to make than GW can charge for them, there's no reason to make the models (loss leaders notwithstanding, but they'd have to be a small part of the budget).

A necessity in any enterprise surely.

GW charge more because they have to subsidise their retail chain. Their margin per product is high naturally, their profit as a company significantly less so.

Without said retail chain there would not be the player base that we take for granted or indeed the GW that we all know and (don't) love.

Didn't say that they should sell at a loss. I'm saying the cost of production is insignificant, minuscule, tiny as a percentage of what you pay, and play no real role in GW cost structure at all. I certainly wasn't trying to turn this into a lets illegitamize/legitamize GW pricing, there are already plenty of those threads. They base their pricing on how much they can get for a piece. I didn't say it was right or wrong, good or bad, just stating the facts. I certainly will not be getting into the old retail chain argument.

Plastic injection vs metal injection is quite different. Theoretically a metal model will have better detail because of flexible molds. The molds are cheaper, but degrade much faster, that is why years later you will get a piece that looks like gak and doesn't fit together. So it costs money to remake the molds every so often.

Plastic injection can be very detailed and the molds last virtually forever, unfortunately because of undercutting they are tricky to work with. If you look at the space hulk sprues, this is why the models are not straight on the sprue, they are all in a different alignment. It really was a masterful job of engineering. But no two part mold will ever let you get as perfect as a flexible metal mold. Some companies use three and even four piece molds, but cost is exponentially higher at that level of production.

GW's latest financial report said their margin on Cost of Goods Sold was holding steady at 76%. That means 24% of the cost of a kit is the cost of designing, manufacturing, packaging and shipping it. So the cost of a £20 kit is about £4 (having deducted VAT).

The reason why GW don't make a massive profit is because their other costs -- largely the retail chain -- eat all their profits.

The answer to the question "Why do GW charge so much?" is;

1. They have to.
2. They can.

Tamiya and Bandai now make some models using slide moulds. This is a fairly modern technique which allows parts to be pressed which can't be done in conventional moulds.

Bandai also mould kits in multiple colours on the same sprue! This would be a fantastic solution to the grey SM army.

While we congratulate GW on their awesome moulding skills, we should bear in mind that it has taken them 25 years to get this far, and they are still behind the leaders.

Kilkrazy wrote:GW's latest financial report said their margin on Cost of Goods Sold was holding steady at 76%. That means 24% of the cost of a kit is the cost of designing, manufacturing, packaging and shipping it. So the cost of a £20 kit is about £4 (having deducted VAT).

The reason why GW don't make a massive profit is because their other costs -- largely the retail chain -- eat all their profits.

The answer to the question "Why do GW charge so much?" is;

1. They have to.
2. They can.

Tamiya and Bandai now make some models using slide moulds. This is a fairly modern technique which allows parts to be pressed which can't be done in conventional moulds.

Bandai also mould kits in multiple colours on the same sprue! This would be a fantastic solution to the grey SM army.

While we congratulate GW on their awesome moulding skills, we should bear in mind that it has taken them 25 years to get this far, and they are still behind the leaders.

Oh yeah, I buy armor kits from Dragon and the new ones use slide mold tech and are absolutely beautiful.

While we congratulate GW on their awesome moulding skills, we should bear in mind that it has taken them 25 years to get this far, and they are still behind the leaders.

Look I'm no fan of GW, but I think they have progressed pretty far actually. Remember when they started out they were making lead minis for role-playing games. If you would have told me in the 80's that one day GW would be charging close to $70 for a land raider, I would have said you are on crack. You will find me moan about pricing alot, but I've never been one to think that GW miniatures have to be the most detailed kits on the planet, to me they are playing pieces really. It was only recently, (lets say last 10 years) that GW really decided to go from a game company that sources models, to a model company that makes rules once on a while. In that time I think model wise they have come a great way, but anymore detail and they will be asking $200 for a landraider, oops forgot forgeworld *.

Can you image what GW would think they could charge for color, slide molded kits.

* (No I don't actually believe that there is a $200 landraider at forgeworld please don't comment on that)