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http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/03/goatboy-grey-knights-and-shunt-punch.html

"Scout states this - Scouts are used to reconnoiter ahead and are always in the vanguard of the army. To represent this, after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from the enemy."

"Personal Teleporter - Units with personal teleporters are Jump Infantry. Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving. If making a teleport shunt the unit immediately makes a move of up to 30" in any direction."

Wouldn't the game be anywhere from the 1-7 turns you might be playing and not BEFORE the game begins?

I dunno, this seems a little goofy. The basic question is when does a game start? Some on bols seem to think it's the second the deployment/scenario is rolled for. Someone on another forum pointed this out:

on pages 92 and 93 of the rulebook, it describes the 3 scenarios. In all three scenarios is the sentance "start the game!" indicating that anything that happened beforehand (scouts/infiltrators) was indeed not part of the game.

Funny that we're in desperate need of a FAQ before the Codex has even been officially released, innit?

We just had another thread about this; there is no final verdict as to how it should be handled.

In the 3 missions in the BRB Scout move comes before Start the game.

We are currently assuming RAP will be to allow the Pre-game shunt, but it will count as the once/game.

Crablezworth wrote:http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/03/goatboy-grey-knights-and-shunt-punch.html

"Scout states this - Scouts are used to reconnoiter ahead and are always in the vanguard of the army. To represent this, after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from the enemy."

"Personal Teleporter - Units with personal teleporters are Jump Infantry. Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving. If making a teleport shunt the unit immediately makes a move of up to 30" in any direction."

Wouldn't the game be anywhere from the 1-7 turns you might be playing and not BEFORE the game begins?

I dunno, this seems a little goofy. The basic question is when does a game start? Some on bols seem to think it's the second the deployment/scenario is rolled for. Someone on another forum pointed this out:

on pages 92 and 93 of the rulebook, it describes the 3 scenarios. In all three scenarios is the sentance "start the game!" indicating that anything that happened beforehand (scouts/infiltrators) was indeed not part of the game.

They can't. You actually have the answer in what you said.

Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving.

Once per game they can do this INSTEAD of move... Scout says you are allowed to make a normal move.

To represent this, after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts make a normal move.

mpangelu wrote:

Crablezworth wrote:http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/03/goatboy-grey-knights-and-shunt-punch.html

"Scout states this - Scouts are used to reconnoiter ahead and are always in the vanguard of the army. To represent this, after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from the enemy."

"Personal Teleporter - Units with personal teleporters are Jump Infantry. Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving. If making a teleport shunt the unit immediately makes a move of up to 30" in any direction."

Wouldn't the game be anywhere from the 1-7 turns you might be playing and not BEFORE the game begins?

I dunno, this seems a little goofy. The basic question is when does a game start? Some on bols seem to think it's the second the deployment/scenario is rolled for. Someone on another forum pointed this out:

on pages 92 and 93 of the rulebook, it describes the 3 scenarios. In all three scenarios is the sentance "start the game!" indicating that anything that happened beforehand (scouts/infiltrators) was indeed not part of the game.

They can't. You actually have the answer in what you said.

Once per game, the unit can elect to make a teleport shunt instead of moving.

Once per game they can do this INSTEAD of move... Scout says you are allowed to make a normal move.

To represent this, after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts make a normal move.

A decent point but people also use that to argue against stuff like turbo boosting so I'm not sure if that's the most direct way to about it. Someone on bols just posted this:

"Noble attempt my friend but your mistaken, it says once per game, not once before or after the game has started, don't forget set up and deployment are as much a part of the game as the battle. The sentence that you are holding onto describes when the battle commences, or turn 1, not when the game came to being, if you read pg 86 a "game" is organised when two people have decided upon a point limit"

So by that logic you wouldn't even need scout... FAIL

If that is true then thats the way it is, you can't argue that with turboboost as it specifically says you can use turbo boost during the scout move also since its still a normal type of move for it.

I was also gonna ask if the people with the teleporter even have scout, but, if that is the case its screwed up anyway. And frankly a very likley game breaker. That means you could have your squads that get those normally and a dreadnight 30" move no restriction right up into your grill, appaently druing even the oponents turn.. but even not reading that into it... Oh, GK is going first, after deployment and seize initiative goes off i'm gonna go ahead and do my shunt before the turn starts. I shunt up within 1 " of you.. and blast you to hell with 3 dreadnights and ohter squads... GG you didn't even get to go and you lost half your army.. aren't you happy?

I was one of those people who brought up the idea of "when a game starts", etc etc... But for me, I don't have a stance on it either way. Why?

Dreadknights can move 12" during the scout move anyway, so during turn 1, the Dreadknights just move another 12" and can assault, making their total "turn 1 move" 30" anyway, allowing for turn 1 assaults.

Personally, I think it is actually a WASTE to use your personal teleporter during your scout move since you move like a jump infantry model can anyway.

As with most aspects of the game, if I have not played against it a few times, I really have no opinion on it.

How are they getting scout moves, .. I don't have access to a codex for it... does it also give scout?

mpangelu wrote:How are they getting scout moves, .. I don't have access to a codex for it... does it also give scout?

Grand Strategy from the GK Grand Master entry. You can give 1d3 units Scout, if you choose to. Taking a pair means 2d3 units Scouting, leading to first turn assaults with NDKs and Interceptor squads.

To represent this, after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from the enemy.

if this is exactly as it is writen its right there in the description:

1) but before the first player begins his first turn

2) any scouts make a normal move. --- meaning: This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, --- it does not say this takes the place of there move --- if that was the case what the hell is the scout rule for ... lol

so basically you get the scout move as per any other model in the game. its just weird because the model in question has a special ability to jump 30 in and then still shoot and assault ...

this could be described as

Awesome Sauce!!!

This will have to be FAQed. I will say the "Start the Game!" argument is not compelling because as was pointed out, all of the deployment descriptions dictate that scout moves happen before "Start the Game!" It is clearly a bit of a stretch to argue that a teleport is a "normal move" (whatever that means) because it is something that is done "instead" of moving. Oh well, GW wants to sell the dreadknight and so I'd suspect an FAQ in its favor in late June.

At least those Shunting Nemesis Dreadknights stop being Monstrous Creatures though.

Aramoro wrote:At least those Shunting Nemesis Dreadknights stop being Monstrous Creatures though.

They still have the dreadnought ccw so it's not like that part changes. That's another that's gotta be FAQ'd. A dreadknight being able to ride in a stormraven is so wrong.

Crablezworth wrote:

Aramoro wrote:At least those Shunting Nemesis Dreadknights stop being Monstrous Creatures though.

They still have the dreadnought ccw so it's not like that part changes. That's another that's gotta be FAQ'd. A dreadknight being able to ride in a stormraven is so wrong.

But they lose the ability to fire 2 guns, lose the extra D6 pen against vehicles, lose Move Through Cover but they do get cover saves from standing in Area Terrain, woo.

? Does giving them shunt somehow remove the MC type?

ChrisCP wrote:? Does giving them shunt somehow remove the MC type?

Only for those folks who like to ignore the concept of RAI. Obviously this was meant to let them "move like", but god forbid GW not spell it out in plain English, now the rules lawyers are going to town with things like that.

"Oh noes! Its not a MC anymore!"
"How can a MC use a DCCW?!"
"Scout Shunt? But the game hasn't started yet!"

I swear, its getting old. With every Codex release, people just seem to dive in for the loopholes and rules issues. Of course, it wouldn't hurt if GW actually put some thought into this sort of stuff, but I suppose they take for granted players have common sense.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:? Does giving them shunt somehow remove the MC type?

Only for those folks who like to ignore the concept of RAI. Obviously this was meant to let them "move like", but god forbid GW not spell it out in plain English, now the rules lawyers are going to town with things like that.

"Oh noes! Its not a MC anymore!"
"How can a MC use a DCCW?!"
"Scout Shunt? But the game hasn't started yet!"

I swear, its getting old. With every Codex release, people just seem to dive in for the loopholes and rules issues. Of course, it wouldn't hurt if GW actually put some thought into this sort of stuff, but I suppose they take for granted players have common sense.

A rules forum is no place to discuss RAI really, everyone can work those out for themselves. It's just more amusing to look at the RAW.

Aramoro wrote:

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:? Does giving them shunt somehow remove the MC type?

Only for those folks who like to ignore the concept of RAI. Obviously this was meant to let them "move like", but god forbid GW not spell it out in plain English, now the rules lawyers are going to town with things like that.

"Oh noes! Its not a MC anymore!"
"How can a MC use a DCCW?!"
"Scout Shunt? But the game hasn't started yet!"

I swear, its getting old. With every Codex release, people just seem to dive in for the loopholes and rules issues. Of course, it wouldn't hurt if GW actually put some thought into this sort of stuff, but I suppose they take for granted players have common sense.

A rules forum is no place to discuss RAI really, everyone can work those out for themselves. It's just more amusing to look at the RAW.

Yeah so lets do rules
Can someone provide a quote that show DK 'loses the unit type MC' or something to that effect?
Or 'Changes it's unit type to JI' etc?

The Teleporter changes your Unit type to Jump Infantry

Aramoro wrote:The Teleporter changes your Unit type to Jump Infantry

Yep. I blame laziness for that one. Instead of clarifying what it does, they do a silly reference to the Interceptor Teleporters, which does turn them into Jump Infantry. However, they didn't say anything about it changing movement type for NDKs, thus the root of the whole "loses MC type" argument. I know RAI arguments are moot in YMDC, but the new GK RAW stuff bugs me, probably because so much of it is pretty obvious, versus some other recent codicies where it seemed a more intricate rules discussion, such as Shield of Sanguinius working on vehicles or the various 'Nid stuff.

I just hope GW doesn't dally on this one like they did 'Nids, but seeing as how they are Imperium / Space Marines, it should be a quick FAQ.

Does it? The only qutoe I've seen for them so far is "Personal Teleporter - Units with personal teleporters are Jump Infantry. " and there's Zero prohibition on being more than one unit type, one can be JI and MC while still being JI.
All JI - MC & JI - MC
( JI (MIJC ) MC )

(If that's the final edition, as we say, wait for FAQ :(

It is not merely laziness but a complete failure to understand their own rules . The sad fact is that they cook up
"exiting and cool" units and rules without thinking through how they actually function ( or do NOT function ) within the existing framework.
"Clear and working rules are not important for an fun and smooth game" is NOT a valid design philosophy .

Yeah, just tell any long-time warhammer player that there are games of similar complexity that do not have any loopholes or unclear situations in their rules(M:TG for example). They will shake their heads in disbelieve and tell you "That's impossible". That's how bad GW is at writing rules.

ChrisCP wrote:Does it? The only qutoe I've seen for them so far is "Personal Teleporter - Units with personal teleporters are Jump Infantry. " and there's Zero prohibition on being more than one unit type, one can be JI and MC while still being JI.
All JI - MC & JI - MC
( JI (MIJC ) MC )

(If that's the final edition, as we say, wait for FAQ :(

Units have a Unit Type, you can change that Unit Type like Personal Teleporter does but it doesn't just give it 2 unit types. If it said Units with Personal Teleporters are Jump Infantry as well as their listed Unit type then it would be fine but it doesn't. Any time you go to check the NDK's unit type Personal Teleporter jumps in an says Jump Infantry.

On the bright side you can't fall down Jaws of the World Wolf anymore.

But, there's nothing indicate one should remove the unit type MC or any of it's accompanying concessions.

ChrisCP wrote:But, there's nothing indicate one should remove the unit type MC or any of it's accompanying concessions.

Q: What Unit Type is a NDK with a Personal Teleporter?

A: Jump Infantry, it has a special rule which tells you that.

Do you get 2D6 Armour pen? No because you're Jump Infantry.

Any time you check what type of unit you are Personal Teleporter says Jump Infantry louder than anything else.

If you put a Jump Pack on a Marine he is not Infantry and Jump Infantry
If you put a Marine on a Bike he is not Infantry and a Bike.
etc etc, that way madness lies.

Wow, that's the fastest faq from GW ever

I think the best position from which to mount your argument would be the BA Codex, the JI entry, but even then are there any rules which would cause confusion between infanty and JI? Has there been any reason to deny that a unit could be two types until now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In addition, can you find any instace where your example of 'If you put a Marine on a Bike he is not Infantry and a Bike.' is supported? As in it specifically states that unit type changes to bike (which would counter you position) or that there is a rules confliction between infantry and bikes, that would have been FAQ'd by now, see how quickly they stamped it out this time?

Jaws of the World Wolf affects Infantry not Jump Infantry.

If you always count as both types then the Jump Infantry rules make no sense, you have to make a Move through cover roll like Infantry then fly in to a tree like Jump Infantry?

True. But has this been FAQ'd (as the DK will be, oh so quickly)?

Basically is funny how the worst rules holes from GW ar never addressed and it's left up to the player to decide weather to take the por or con position, naturaly all good players will take the less advantageous position... right?

It's not really a loop hole. Models have a Unit Type, a Unit Type, not Unit Types. How it works is pretty clear and makes sense in every case except the NDK Teleporter. If you try to change the rules to make the NDK work as MC AND Jump Infantry it breaks everything else in a bizzare way.