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Do wyches get their 4+ CC save against Cleansing Flame?

A good question for the Grey Knight INAT Question Submission Thread, no?

puma713 wrote:A good question for the Grey Knight INAT Question Submission Thread, no?

Why?

Ever unit get Armor or Inv save vs Cleansing Flame. Thats if they have a save in the first place.

They won't because dodge can only be used against wounds caused by close combat attacks. Cleansing flame specifically causes wounds 'before blows are struck'.

But... you can always take a crucible of malediction!

I'm going to say "No" to, as the wounds are caused "before blows are struck", which I take to mean its before the combat has begun.

My poor, toasty wyches.

I just read the rules for cleansing flame in the other thread that was started, and Wyches rejoice!

"Unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes."

The wyches can have as many 'unsaved' wounds as they would like. All that means is cleansing flame actually helps combat resolution for the grey knights players. The wounds themselves aren't caused by CC attacks and therefore the wyches can't 'dodge' them. Common Sense FTW.

Oaka wrote:I just read the rules for cleansing flame in the other thread that was started, and Wyches rejoice!

"Unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes."

tetrisphreak wrote:The wyches can have as many 'unsaved' wounds as they would like. All that means is cleansing flame actually helps combat resolution for the grey knights players. The wounds themselves aren't caused by CC attacks and therefore the wyches can't 'dodge' them. Common Sense FTW.

Actually, common sense would follow the post before yours. If the unsaved wounds count as being caused in close combat for all purposes, that includes for the effects of the 4++ Dodge, as it is used against unsaved wounds from close combat attacks. Hense, Cleansing flame is still a CC attack. And anyone that wants to tell me that its not, show me how they use it if they are not in close combat. Since they can't, that makes it a CC attack. Well, that and the fact that it's wounds count for all purposes of close combat.

The wounds allow for all normal saves and Cleansing Flame is done in CC(before any other blows are struck) so i would say they do get their 4++.


it may not make sense Fluffwise(dodging Soulfire), but it's only fair rules wise. otherwise, the wytches are useless.

Noir wrote:
Why?

The differing opinions above answer that for you.

Yeah, I guess please add this for the INAT FAQ.

puma713 wrote:

Noir wrote:
Why?

The differing opinions above answer that for you.

So like pointed out above "count as having been caused in combat for ALL purposes" isn't clear enough?

Maybe, some people should read the rule before they answer. Not talking about you puma.

Yes, the wyches get their 4++

I still don't agree. The rule says "unsaved" wounds. You can't take a save vs. an unsaved wound, as in unsaved means the save was attempted and failed. The part where they count as part of combat simply refers to combat resolution (where as a counterpoint, failed saves from failed dangerous terrain tests do not count towards combat resolution). The wych 'dodge' rule allows a 4++ save from wounds caused in close combat, cleansing flame happens before close combat blows are struck. But primarily, you can't take an invulnerable save vs an unsaved wound, you can only take an invulnerable save vs a wound that has not yet had a saving throw attempted. I will stand firm until more convincingly shown otherwise.

Cleansing flame causes a wound.


thats it.

tetrisphreak wrote:I still don't agree. The rule says "unsaved" wounds. You can't take a save vs. an unsaved wound, as in unsaved means the save was attempted and failed. The part where they count as part of combat simply refers to combat resolution (where as a counterpoint, failed saves from failed dangerous terrain tests do not count towards combat resolution). The wych 'dodge' rule allows a 4++ save from wounds caused in close combat, cleansing flame happens before close combat blows are struck. But primarily, you can't take an invulnerable save vs an unsaved wound, you can only take an invulnerable save vs a wound that has not yet had a saving throw attempted. I will stand firm until more convincingly shown otherwise.

Soi by your logic, the only reason that they say "all purposes" is for combat resolution??? Why would you write that if it was only to be used for one thing???

You want more convincing evidence, then so do I. If I can't use my wyches invul save against an attack that happens when all conditions of close combat have been fulfilled up to rolling dice for hitting and wounding, then cleansing flame can't hurt me in while im locked in close combat because its not a shooting attack that scattered onto me in the shooting phase, and its not a close combat attack, which is the only other thing besides scattering blasts that can hurt a unit locked in close combat. So that way, we don't have to worry about unsaved wounds from it because it can't wound me if its not a close combat attack and I am locked in close combat. Convincing enough?

Or better yet, here's an easier way for you to understand it. Initiative 6 Wyches charge Initiative 4 purifiers. First wych moves in, then the rest move up to 6" to get into B2B or within 2" of a model within B2B. The purifiers then execute their Defenders React movement. Then, the Purifiers take their psychic test, pass it, and the Initiative 7 Cleansing Flame goes into effect. The wyches take whatever wounds they take, make their invul saves against the close combat attack, then they take their attacks at I6, then the Purifiers take their attacks at I4. In other words, the Cleansing Flame psychic power is done at the highest Initiative step, I11 (a.k.a before any blows can be struck!)

Here's a scenario that used to happen regularly for the Dark Eldar in the last codex, which is almost exactly like this, and it was FAQed like this to show that close combat attacks can be done before normal CC attacks. Last codex, Archons and wyches had a combat drug that was simply "Always strikes first." Now then, banshees on the first turn of any assault are I10, which mean you can swing with them but not before them right??? Wrong. "Always strikes first" is pretty clear there, isnt it?? But the arguement was that it was impossible to swing before I10, so they had to swing simo. Nope, according to GW, "Always strikes first" swung before even I10, so the Banshees were just straight out of luck. Hence, CC attacks can happen before the usual attacks, if GW wants them to.

A bit long winded, but hopefully helps explain it a bit more in depth with my line of thinking.

Galador wrote:So that way, we don't have to worry about unsaved wounds from it because it can't wound me if its not a close combat attack and I am locked in close combat. Convincing enough?

Not that I necessarily disagree with your general point, but this part is not entirely true.

Shooting attacks have a prohibition (and an allowance in the case of scatter) and close combat attacks are explicitely allowed, but other wounds can occur that are neither--and can affect models in CC. (Spirit Leech being my favorite example)

Galador wrote:then cleansing flame can't hurt me in while im locked in close combat because its not a shooting attack that scattered onto me in the shooting phase, and its not a close combat attack, which is the only other thing besides scattering blasts that can hurt a unit locked in close combat.

No, that's not true, there are other things that can hurt a unit in close combat. Staying in the realm of Dark Eldar, a good example would be a squad of Wyches that have gained 3 pain tokens, and thus have become Fearless. They're locked in combat, but because they failed to inflict more wounds than their opponents, they have lost combat. They now have to take No Retreat! wounds, for which they can't claim their Dodge save (but would be able to claim their armour and Feel No Pain saves).

As the rule for Cleansing Flame states it is only regardes as a Close Combat attack for unsaved wounds, and there is no way you can use an invulnerable save on a wound that you already failed to save, you cannot claim a Dodge save against Cleansing Flame by RAW.

Redemption wrote:As the rule for Cleansing Flame states it is only regardes as a Close Combat attack for unsaved wounds, and there is no way you can use an invulnerable save on a wound that you already failed to save, you cannot claim a Dodge save against Cleansing Flame by RAW.

That is rich.

kirsanth wrote:

Redemption wrote:As the rule for Cleansing Flame states it is only regardes as a Close Combat attack for unsaved wounds, and there is no way you can use an invulnerable save on a wound that you already failed to save, you cannot claim a Dodge save against Cleansing Flame by RAW.

That is rich.

@Redemption - That's exactly what I was saying but you put it so much more succinctly.

@Galador - I see your train of thought but there is no "I11", nor does the rule say to place the cleansing flame at "an initiative one step higher than the fastest combatants." Those as examples hold no weight in this discussion, you can't make up rules to prove how an existing rule does or doesn't work. Don't assault purifiers with wyches. Rather, shoot them down with trueborn.

tetrisphreak wrote:@Galador - I see your train of thought but there is no "I11", nor does the rule say to place the cleansing flame at "an initiative one step higher than the fastest combatants." Those as examples hold no weight in this discussion, you can't make up rules to prove how an existing rule does or doesn't work. Don't assault purifiers with wyches. Rather, shoot them down with trueborn.

I'm glad you saw my point, and I wasn't trying to make up a rule, I was simply using it to show that things that happen before the initiative steps, which are when normal CC attacks are struck, still can count as close combat attacks.

Galador wrote:
Actually, common sense would follow the post before yours. If the unsaved wounds count as being caused in close combat for all purposes, that includes for the effects of the 4++ Dodge, as it is used against unsaved wounds from close combat attacks. Hense, Cleansing flame is still a CC attack. And anyone that wants to tell me that its not, show me how they use it if they are not in close combat. Since they can't, that makes it a CC attack. Well, that and the fact that it's wounds count for all purposes of close combat.

I reread the DE codex and was a little iffy till I went and saw the entry in the GK codex. All purposes, like dodging apparently.