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So I'm looking at the statlines of the handgunners vs those of the outriders. My question is this: Unless I am trying to fill core points or save special points for something else, is there any good reason to take a unit of handgunners instead of a comparably priced unit of outriders? Both are move or shoot. Both are range 24 str 4 armor piercing. The outriders have a better armor save. The extra bs on the outriders makes up for the -1 penalty for multi shot, so they are hitting on the same roll. So, all that taken into account it costs less to put the same number of shots down field when one chooses outriders (three handgunners= three shots and costs more than one outrider which also puts three shots down field).

Is this assessment accurate, or are there other factors that I have overlooked?

-Jim

Problem with that is Outriders are only marginally more durable. You take six wounds at S4 on Handgunners, you lose five shots and five models. You take six S4 wounds on Outriders, you lose, what, four models? That's twelve shots lost, and how many points?

Ah ha. So if my opponent has even a moderate amount of shooting that he can direct against my outriders, he can quickly negate all the shooting I have at my disposal. I see....

Thanks

Well Outriders seem to be that unit that seems cool, but something else can do it better. If you want static shooting then Handgunners, or even crossbowmen, are better because they have more wounds. If you want something more mobile then pistoliers are great (which I pretty much always take, even in a gun line list).

The advantage to outriders actually comes from being fast cavalry, and getting that march move up the field before the game starts. You can't survive as many hits as handgunners, but you hope to avoid getting hit in the first place by manoeuvering to a place where the enemy won't be able to hit. You want to move up the field behind a tower or some other obstacle where the enemy can't see you to hit you, or move outside their field of vision so they'd have to give up a turn of firing to wheel to face you.

Unfortunately, at least from my experience, I've found it pretty rare that that's actually worked. As a result I made all my handgunners into pistoliers permanently, because while they also aren't very good, they're a little cheaper and a lot more fun to annoy the enemy with.

While this is a minor advantage, Handgunners can also get your one State Troops magic banner if you have a General of the Empire leading the army. I don't think Outriders have this option. Pretty damn useful if you're facing a lot of Hydras, HPAs, or Trees.

I agree with the general consesus here. Outriders arn't really viable anymore.

If it were not for the -1 multiple shot rule then they would be good OR if they were move and fire then they would bring something to the field. But as it is they're too easy to kill. I use pistoliers for my fast cav and if I feel like I want some shooting handgunners. Another advantage is that you can garrision handgunners in a building or something.

chronos wrote:I agree with the general consesus here. Outriders arn't really viable anymore.

If it were not for the -1 multiple shot rule then they would be good OR if they were move and fire then they would bring something to the field. But as it is they're too easy to kill. I use pistoliers for my fast cav and if I feel like I want some shooting handgunners. Another advantage is that you can garrision handgunners in a building or something.

I wouldn't say that. They didn't get any worse, and you can pack a lot of shooting into a small space.
You can put 10 in a unit on the outside, and vanguard up behind terrain and wheel to face center. This will give you 36 shots from 5" of width. Handgunners giving the same firepower would be 14" wide (18 models wide).
If you support this firebase with a small units of knights, the knights can run off any fast cav/skirmishing/small unit threat. With 15 S3 attacks, outriders don't totally flop in the face of harpies or other fast crap.

Really, outriders and handgunners have different rolls.
Handgunners are much more static, where as Outriders can act as a bait unit on the outside, away from the warmachines.

-Matt

i find a combination of outriders and handgunners to have served me best, outriders on the flanks to move up fire at the enemy, something charges them that i cant shoot up then flee and reform where my knights can then hit them, also @115 points they make a good distraction(or fore-lorn hope), forcing my opponent to target them or suffer the consequences
advantage is the redirecting capabilities(pistoliers are also good for this but have much shorter range, both are good flanking options)

with outriders on the flanks supported by knights i put a block of handgunners in the center or wherever a good open field of fire is available to support the rest of my state troops, also handgunners make nice detachments since when detachments are broken they don't cause panic in other units
another advantage that i have with the handgunners is detachments that counter charge when the enemy gets close and the number of models to take wounds is less devastating to the firepower of the unit as posted above

but i play a bit unorthodox when it comes to empire
overall my suggestion is to try them out in a few games, if you don't have the models yet proxy something else in and find out what you really like

One of the problems I'm trying to overcome with the outriders is a lack of space. As a few people have said, they are a good way to pack a lot of shooting into a small footprint. The normal point value at my flgs is 3k, which makes for large games to begin with. On top of that, I often run as many as 200-250 state troops in a list, which takes up even more room. I'm going to try the outrider knight combo, and see how it does. If it doesn't perform, I think I will go with some detachments of handgunners on the swordsmen and hallies.

Thanks for all the input guys. I'll let you know how the outriders perform.

-Jim

I never take outriders. Pistoliers have a role in which they either flank and unload a lot of shots where the enemy can't charge or shoot them, or get shot to pieces instead of my main combat blocks.

The more expensive move_or_shoot outriders generally can't do that.

I've played two games with outriders. The first game was against Empire. The 7 outriders forced a panic test (which failed) on a unit of ten pistoliers the very first turn (woo hoo!) but were taken out by a rocket battery that scattered away from my inner circle right onto them. Three survived, failed their panic test, and proceeded to flee off the table.

The second game was against the new orcs and goblins. It was a friendly game against an old buddy of mine, so I decided to try something different. I fielded a unit of 20 outriders set up in two ranks. The first turn it shot the green off a unit of 20 orcs. The second turn it destroyed them outright . A nearby unit of goblins proceeded to flee. It rallied later only to get shot up by the outriders, and wiped out by a unit of inner circle.

I'm not so sure that the 7 man units of outriders have a place in my list, but I'm surprised and intrigued by the performance of this 20 man unit.
12 models survived to the end of the game (some having died from bolt throwers), and the orc player didnt want to get anywhere near it.

-Jim

JimLofa wrote:
The second game was against the new orcs and goblins. It was a friendly game against an old buddy of mine, so I decided to try something different. I fielded a unit of 20 outriders set up in two ranks. The first turn it shot the green off a unit of 20 orcs. The second turn it destroyed them outright . A nearby unit of goblins proceeded to flee. It rallied later only to get shot up by the outriders, and wiped out by a unit of inner circle.

I'm not so sure that the 7 man units of outriders have a place in my list, but I'm surprised and intrigued by the performance of this 20 man unit.
12 models survived to the end of the game (some having died from bolt throwers), and the orc player didnt want to get anywhere near it.

-Jim

As both O&G and Empire player, that must have hurt.

However, I'm not sure sinking 400+ points on a unit of outriders is that good of an idea, with those points you can get 2x25 blocks of hangunners with a long rifle marksman each.

Must have been real fun, though

Its probably not something i'm going to bring to every game, but I'm going to try it a few more times. If it doesn't get consistently hammered, I may field it once in a while if I think I can gain a psychological advantage over my opponent.

-Jim

Against a hit from a Rocket battery or Stonethrower, Pistoliers or Handgunners die just as easily. That certainly isn't an argument in their favour.

I find that even a small unit of OR works very well in small games, 500-1k. Units are smaller, WM less common and there's often more space to deploy them properly without the risk of getting charged at all.

To keep them alive a little longer against missile troops, place them behind another regiment, or run one up in front of them turn 1. They can shoot over their comrades but in cover themselves.

I would take Outriders for 4 reasons.
1. A fast and manouverable force that can quickly secure and prevent enemy movement towards a position of interest.
2. The sheer amount of shots they can pull out with so little room required.
3. High ballistic skill.
4. An extremly good way to field a Hochland Rifle. Outriders give you the largest BS option when it comes to the Hochland Rifle
I think I just heard the screams of a VC player whose General just got sniped... must have been a foreshadow.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:Against a hit from a Rocket battery or Stonethrower, Pistoliers or Handgunners die just as easily. That certainly isn't an argument in their favour.

They do die just as easily really by most things that will hurt them sometimes the 5+ AS will save them most times not. But the point was that when 1 outrider dies you lose 3 shots, when 1 handgunner dies you lose 1 shot.

@ HawaiiMatt

HawaiiMatt wrote:I wouldn't say that. They didn't get any worse, and you can pack a lot of shooting into a small space.

They clearly did get worst. Take a unit of 5, 15 shots, most times at range and multiple shots they need 5's to hit. Before needed 4's or even 3's" Thats a significant nerf. And they are not mobile, sure they're fast cav but they don't have the advantage of fas cav of moving and shooting.

Yes you are correct that they are compacted and don't take up much space. But that is a very circumstancial advantage in which rare cases, often unforeseeable , will be helpful. That small space they take up makes them vulnerable to panic and other such bad things.

I believe their former role has been taken up by pistoliers and that they no longer bring as much value to the field.

I think the main problem with outriders is they can't move and fire(unless the new rules changed that)


Pistoleers can move and fire which is super nice, but the Outriders are limited by an otherwise great gun.

Grey Templar wrote:I think the main problem with outriders is they can't move and fire(unless the new rules changed that)


Pistoleers can move and fire which is super nice, but the Outriders are limited by an otherwise great gun.

Then again, who would use Pistoliers if Outriders can move and shoot?

They are cheaper?

chronos wrote:
They clearly did get worst. Take a unit of 5, 15 shots, most times at range and multiple shots they need 5's to hit. Before needed 4's or even 3's" Thats a significant nerf.

After nearly a year, any changes in comparison to an old edition are meaningless methinks. The important question is what they can do under this set of rules. Compared to handgunners, they are more fragile - you rightly point out the loss of more firepower per model, and the same points will only present a single target - but vanguard means they can shoot on turn 1. The Hochland option for the champion and the small footprint as well as their increased speed in an emergency mean that I would personally prefer Outriders over handgunners.

Having said that, both the malus for multiple shots and long range where present iin 7th, so they're not hitting any less.

chronos wrote:

@ HawaiiMatt

HawaiiMatt wrote:I wouldn't say that. They didn't get any worse, and you can pack a lot of shooting into a small space.

They clearly did get worst. Take a unit of 5, 15 shots, most times at range and multiple shots they need 5's to hit. Before needed 4's or even 3's" Thats a significant nerf. And they are not mobile, sure they're fast cav but they don't have the advantage of fas cav of moving and shooting.

Yes you are correct that they are compacted and don't take up much space. But that is a very circumstancial advantage in which rare cases, often unforeseeable , will be helpful. That small space they take up makes them vulnerable to panic and other such bad things.

I believe their former role has been taken up by pistoliers and that they no longer bring as much value to the field.

You must have a different 7th edition book than me; mine still say multiple shot x3, which was still -1 to hit.
A smaller footprint reduces panic by allowing more space between units; it is a lot easier to get a 5" by 4" block 6+ inches away, than it is to get a 12" x ~2" block.
If you're using the rule book missions with 7-13 pieces of terrain; it's hard to play a game where you can't Vanguard into a cover to gain a good field of fire and a nice -2 to be shot.
Pistoliers gained range, but also picked up range modifiers; it's tough to keep that 2nd rank in short range, and Ld7 does fail it's test and gets march blocked.

I'm not a huge fan, but I think outriders are good enough to work.

-Matt