Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I recently came into some money and have decided to perchase a 2,000 Dark Eldar army. I already own a normal eldar list which is pretty fun, fluffy and is not very competetive. Needless to say I'm done with high comp scores. The purpose of this dark eldar list is to win. That said I'm quite lost on what to build my army list as (I'm on spring break now and have literally created 10 to 20 different lists with my free time trying to find the perfect one). I know what I want the general theme to be: board control. I want to use the DE awesome speed in combination with some fantastic melee troops choices to zip across the board turn one and engage in combat by turn two, forcing my opponent on to the defensive and giving me control of the course of the game. I often include Asdrubael Vect as he permits me to steal the initiative on a 4+. Whatever I do I'm fairly certain I plan to have 3 ravagers in the back each with flickerfields and night shields (totaling 125 pts per). These cripple enemy heavy armor permit the frontal assult force to get into combat with (hopefully) minimal casualties.

My first thought for a forward attack force is hellions. I can make them troops by taking the baron. This also helps because the baron gives me a +1 for the going first role; comboed with vect this makes a pretty much assured chance of going first (although thats a pretty hefty HQ section). The hellions could either jump forward and engage on second turn as per normal or if things look rough they could deep strike. My hellion squads consist of 9 hellions and 1 helliarch with an agonizer. (totaling 185 pts per squad). the final supporting element is scourge with dark lances, these guys move with the hellions and give them anti take support.

In the end this list looks something like this:

Baron Sathonyx: 105 pts

4 X hellion squads: 740 pts

3 X ravagers: 375 pts

2 X scourge squads (solarite, 4 dark lances): 580 pts

200 pts are left over after this to mess around with (maybe an extra hellion squad many something else) either way you get the gist. This list simply didn't say success to me so I "tabled it" so to speak har har.



The second idea (and more popular one) is Vect in a raider with 9 incubi (I considered using the Dais but in the end it didn't seem worth it) leading a charge of either witches or Wracks + Rakarth (making them troops). Witches and Wracks are pretty much equivalent. A standard witch squad: 9 witches, 1 hekatrix with agonizer in a naked raider is 210 pts. A standard wrack squad: 9 wracks, two with liquefier, guns 1 acothyst with agonizer in a naked raider is also 210 points. Admittedly the wracks require Rakarth, but he's a pretty cool model (and looks fantastic!).


In the end I have come to reject all of these ideas. I like them all its just that none jump out at me and say "you could do some fun stuff with this!" What I'm looking for here is mostly new inspiration. I know very little about competitive DE today so any info would be great. If what I said above looks good I can elaborate on it, but I don't think that will be the case. Anyways I appreciate the help everyone! I couldn't think of a better community to bring such a difficult question to. Thanks for your input!





also side note. What is the purpose of this emote? I can't figure it out! It's a dude preaching on a block that says soap. What does it mean!!!?? javascript:emoticon('');

200 pts are left over after this to mess around with (maybe an extra hellion squad many something else) either way you get the gist. This list simply didn't say success to me so I "tabled it" so to speak har har.

These guys on crack need FnP for increased survivability.
I'd throw in 3 Haemies and then stick them with the Scourges.

The ork is badmouthing, ranting and cursing.

The soap is there to clean its dirty mouth.


You don't need Urien to field Wracks as troops. Lord of Covens is an ability any Haemonculus has.

Lists look good though, i'll put some more raiders with slim troops to protect/ give cover to the Scourges.

mantastyle wrote:Baron Sathonyx: 105 pts

4 X hellion squads: 740 pts

3 X ravagers: 375 pts

2 X scourge squads (solarite, 4 dark lances): 580 pts

200 pts are left over after this to mess around with (maybe an extra hellion squad many something else) either way you get the gist. This list simply didn't say success to me so I "tabled it" so to speak har har.

Your tabling plan was probably a smart choice, as this army is more fun than anything else. The biggest WTF in your army list is the Scourges w. Dark lances. They can either move or shoot, not both. So, they're pretty terrible. Why pay for a fast moving unit if you're going to give it a heavy weapon, and vice versa, right?

I'm also pretty lukewarm about Hellions as I find them inferior to Wyches on the whole.

The second idea (and more popular one) is Vect in a raider with 9 incubi (I considered using the Dais but in the end it didn't seem worth it) leading a charge of either witches or Wracks + Rakarth (making them troops). Witches and Wracks are pretty much equivalent. A standard witch squad: 9 witches, 1 hekatrix with agonizer in a naked raider is 210 pts. A standard wrack squad: 9 wracks, two with liquefier, guns 1 acothyst with agonizer in a naked raider is also 210 points. Admittedly the wracks require Rakarth, but he's a pretty cool model (and looks fantastic!).

Wracks don't require Rakarth, and indeed go better with Haemonculi who will also make them Troops, are cheaper, and can be put with Wyches to give the Wyches FNP, which is tech.
Two quick thoughts about this list;
Stick Vect with Wyches,a nd run the Incubi seperate - this gives you 2 giant "oh dear gawd kill this!" units instead of one. You never want to only have one, because then the opponent kills it and you'r looking at 500 points of stuff kind of sitting there because the enemy proved capable of killing a single AV 10 open topped vehilce (and trust me, any list worth anything ought to be able to do that round one)
I like the assault element - don't forget to include more than just the Ravagers though, you *need* to be able to bust open transports so your assault peeps can get to the chewy centers. Haywires on Wych squads can help with this.

In the end I have come to reject all of these ideas. I like them all its just that none jump out at me and say "you could do some fun stuff with this!" What I'm looking for here is mostly new inspiration. I know very little about competitive DE today so any info would be great. If what I said above looks good I can elaborate on it, but I don't think that will be the case. Anyways I appreciate the help everyone! I couldn't think of a better community to bring such a difficult question to. Thanks for your input!

CHeck my sig for the updated DE tactica I'm working on. Still a work in progress but maybe something there will twig to you.
Also, check out Ketara's article he breaks down some of the basic themes, maybe something there will tickle your pickle?

also side note. What is the purpose of this emote? I can't figure it out! It's a dude preaching on a block that says soap. What does it mean!!!?? javascript:emoticon('');

Up on a soapbox

I revised the hellion version.

20 hellion squad (helliarch, agonizer), Baron Sathonx runs with this unit as well.

10 hellions (helliarch agonizer).

10 hellions (helliarch agonizer).

ravager (night shields, flickerfields).

ravager (night shields,).

ravager (night shields, flickerfields).

10 trueborn (4 w/blasters) in a naked raider.

10 trueborn (4 w/blasters) in a naked raider.


All in all exactly 1850. Thats for tournies. To bump it to 2000 I add 10 more hellions to one of the 10 man squads and drop another flickerfield.

The main problem with that list is that its seriously lacking in punch in the assault phase and is really fragile. Hellions are great with the Baron and even without him are great at cleaning up most standard infantry, but unless you take them in even larger numbers you are going to bounce off harder targets. Not having at least some Haemonculi in this kind of list is very unusual, at the very least take 1 to give the main 20 man unit FNP from the start (so they can get 3+ cover and FNP and screen everything else). I would highly recommend Beastmasters for some added punch. You could also easily add a Webway Portal into this list which would make it much more threatening, Hellions have huge threat radius from the Portal as do Beastmasters.

The most obvious place to drop points is the Trueborn, there is basically no reason to take a full 10 man unit when all you are using is 4 Blasters for Tank Hunting (which is all they will be doing with only 3 Ravagers as your anti tank).

The idea is that the big hellions squads can tar pit squads that might be able to leave the opponents deployment area. Also, its a 21 man squad (bcs of the baron) that has stealth (also due to the baron). With 21 men spanning the the whole table they can get a 3+ cover save. The other hellions then hide behind them to get their own saves. The ravager's purpose is self evident. The trueborn also have a fairly normal purpose.

mantastyle wrote: The purpose of this dark eldar list is to win. That said I'm quite lost on what to build my army list as (I'm on spring break now and have literally created 10 to 20 different lists with my free time trying to find the perfect one). I know what I want the general theme to be: board control. I want to use the DE awesome speed in combination with some fantastic melee troops choices to zip across the board turn one and engage in combat by turn two, forcing my opponent on to the defensive and giving me control of the course of the game.

Focusing on this and ignoring your ideas about how to implement it...


To me, a wych cult epitomizes fast assault in 40k. You want a fast moving army with awesome speed combined with some fantastic melee troop choices to zip across the board turn one and engage in combat by turn two......how about zipping across the board on turn 1, and engaging in combat on turn 1 potentially? That's a wych cult.


Before the new codex came out, my wych cult looked basically like this at 2,000 points:

HQ: Lelith Hespirax + wych retinue (succubus with agonizer) in a dark lance raider

Troop1: 5x Wyches, succubus with agonizer, 2x Blasters, 5x haywire grenades in a dark lance raider
Troop2: 5x Wyches, succubus with agonizer, 2x Blasters, 5x haywire grenades in a dark lance raider
Troop3: 5x Wyches, succubus with agonizer, 2x Blasters, 5x haywire grenades in a dark lance raider
Troop4: 5x Wyches, succubus with agonizer, 2x Blasters, 5x haywire grenades in a dark lance raider
Troop5: 5x Wyches, succubus with agonizer, 2x Blasters, 5x haywire grenades in a dark lance raider

Elite1: 5x Warriors with a Dark Lance in a Dark Lance Raider (one with a Nightmare Doll)
Elite2: 5x Warriors with a Dark Lance in a Dark Lance Raider (one with a Crucible of Malediction)
Elite3: 5x Warriors with a Dark Lance in a Dark Lance Raider

Heavy1: Ravager with triple disintegrators
Heavy2: Ravager with triple disintegrators
Heavy3: Ravager with triple disintegrators

The army has 12 Dark Lances and 10 blasters for anti-tank, with the ravagers serving as heavy anti-tank duty with triple STR7 AP2 templates per vehicle per turn, and the ability to bang up a rhino coming into play more often than intended due to my personal inadequacy with dice. In addition to being assault units, the wyches all came packing haywire grenades to double up at anti-tank duty – and when rolling for combat drugs (by individual unit), more often than not I was looking for at least one 12” charge and giving Lelith’s unit a 12” charge as well to get in and silence tanks (or long fangs) early.

While most opponents can probably accurately assess that five wyches that are STR3 aren’t particularly threatening to their own assault units, a much smaller percentage of opponents can see past the unit vs. unit comparison to assess the threat of the army’s synergy – because in actuality, it is almost *never* 5 wyches versus a unit of ork boyz, or a grey hunter squad, or a dire avenger unit, or a terminator squad….it is 10-20 wyches bringing 4-8 STR8 AP2 shots before they assault in. 15 wyches vs. 20 boyz is different than 5 wyches vs 20 boyz.

The new codex brings change.

Lelith is no longer a reasonably priced retinue-toting monster. Instead, she’s an underwhelming point sink. Wyches no longer can pack blasters, let alone two per unit of five. They lost wych weapons, which were a critical piece of tying units up both both cutting enemy weapon skill in half and reducing the entire enemy attacks by one most of the time (since most things pack a close combat weapon). Dark Lances went up by 15 points and can no longer be fielded by a unit of 5 warriors. Disintegrators got nerfed into uselessness.

I originally started a kabal in the new codex because my attempts at rebuilding my wych cult always ended up with a much less effective version of what I used to have. I had been running a haemonculi in my army since it was the only way to gain access to the Crucible of Malediction, which I consider to be essential to a TAC list – most heavily impacting games against Eldar and Tyranids and with the advent of Grey Knights, expected to become even more important. The haemonculi initially ran with the beast unit, then jumped into a trueborn venom on the first turn to get up the battlefield to apply his crucible (if applicable) and his Shattershard. When the Black Templar / Dark Angel FAQs hit, I took a close look at what I was running because I didn’t have an answer to Blessed Hull…or Monoliths. With beasts being reduced in effectiveness without PtP and no answer to lance-ignoring armour, the obvious answer was wyches with haywire grenades.

I initially put my haemonculi with the wyches because I didn’t have anywhere better to put him, but after seeing how potent wyches were when they started with FNP (and possibly Furious Charge depending on drugs), this unit combination became one of my favorites, and one I’m glad to see becoming more widely accepted as time goes by and influence spreads. Thus, having broken out of my initial wych cult tendencies, a new variation was born:

Wych Coven
HQ1: 1x Haemonculi with 1x Liquifier and Crucible of Malediction
HQ2: 3x Haemonculi with 3x Liquifiers and 1x Shattershard

Troop1: 9x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 9x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield
Troop2: 9x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 9x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield
Troop3: 9x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 9x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield
Troop4: 9x Wyches with a Hekatrix upgrade packing an agonizer; 9x Haywire Grenades // Raider, Dark Lance, Flickerfield


Elite1: 4x Kabalite Trueborn with 4x Blasters // Venom, Extra Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield
Elite2: 4x Kabalite Trueborn with 4x Blasters // Venom, Extra Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield
Elite3: 4x Kabalite Trueborn with 4x Blasters // Venom, Extra Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield

Heavy Support1: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances, Flickerfield
Heavy Support2: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances, Flickerfield
Heavy Support3: Ravager with 3x Dark Lances, Flickerfield

Trueborn take the place of the old warriors with dark lances. Wyches have lost cheap killing power but gained survivability, Ravagers don’t have access to plasma templates anymore, but there are more wyches that are more survivable now, and volume of fire from Venoms helps to offset the loss of powerful anti-troop fire. In some respects, splinter cannons are more effective anti-troop tools than the old Disintegrators – which scattered 2/3 of the time, and against intelligent opponents only caught 1-2 models on a direct hit anyway.

While opponents can still look at a wych unit and make a unit vs. unit comparison (how will my 10 assault marines fare against your 9 wyches), it will still come down to 18-27 wyches against a dedicated assault unit just to make sure the job gets done – unless they’re not packing power weapons or ork numbers, in which case nine wyches with an agonize and FNP + a drug on the charge should do the trick.

The key to success isn’t in overwhelming your opponent like an IG leafblower list, but in deciding what happens on the battlefield where and when.

Having spent quite some time examining raiders. I have come to a startling conclusion. Considering that any choice put in a raider floats in the vicinity of 210 points (thats wracks and witches, warriors are slightly less), given that, raiders cannot be effectively spammed. In 1850 to 2000 you can expect to see round about 6 to 8 raiders. Any list in that point-age with decent firepower can stun, immobilize, wreak or destroy (the majority of the damage options) most if not all the 6 to 8 av 10, open-topped vehicles. This leaves only two options remaining. Go first or don't depend of raiders to transport a whole army without being irreparably crippled.

As such, hellions with support seems the only viable option. That said I was considering replacing a trueborn squad with an incubi squad but I'm not sure how much anti tank I will need. Also two trueborn squads can pretty much kill an assault termie squad if they both fire on it. In a pinch they can stand in for anti-heavy infantry.

mantastyle wrote:Having spent quite some time examining raiders. I have come to a startling conclusion. Considering that any choice put in a raider floats in the vicinity of 210 points (thats wracks and witches, warriors are slightly less), given that, raiders cannot be effectively spammed. In 1850 to 2000 you can expect to see round about 6 to 8 raiders. Any list in that point-age with decent firepower can stun, immobilize, wreak or destroy (the majority of the damage options) most if not all the 6 to 8 av 10, open-topped vehicles. This leaves only two options remaining. Go first or don't depend of raiders to transport a whole army without being irreparably crippled.

As such, hellions with support seems the only viable option. That said I was considering replacing a trueborn squad with an incubi squad but I'm not sure how much anti tank I will need. Also two trueborn squads can pretty much kill an assault termie squad if they both fire on it. In a pinch they can stand in for anti-heavy infantry.

6-8 Raiders at 1850 isn't spamming them? And you are adding in the 3 Ravagers, right? So that's 9-11 vehicles - that's spam any way you cut it, not super brilliant awesome spam, but it is spam. I think your problem is the presumption of a 210 point Raider - which is more then you have to pay for a Raider and a functional squad.

I run 12 vehicles at 1750 points. DE Raider spam worked in the old codex and still does work now. I'd certainly be happy if they gave us vehicles in our fast slots so I could run some there as well, but you can't have everything.

Why do you think Hellions are more survivable than Raiders? Sure, there's less 'one hit' potential, but it will take the Hellions till Turn 3 to really get up to the enemy, and that's a lot of rounds where they can be rapid fired or flamered. Meanwhile the Raiders will have Turn 1 with a 3+ cover save and a 5+ invulnerable, and Turn 2 they'll have already dropped off their cargo. They're super hard to stop and there's really only about 1-2 regular lists out there that are in the ballpark for being able to stop the rush. Most armies couldn't even if they built for it.

Dash of pepper

Where in the newer codex is the Disintegrator on a Ravager a STR 7 AP2 template weapon? From my codex they are STR 5 AP2, Heavy 3 weapons?

Am I in error? If so please show me the page where I can see this, otherwise I think you are referring to the previous codex in which the Disintegrator was a STR 7 AP2 blast template.

Thank you.

I simply have to disagree with you there. For starters, hellions have a second turn charge with a shooting attack on both first and second turn. They can even charge first turn if the enemy deploys full deployment forward and they roll to run on a six (unlikely but with hypex not impossible and so much fun to see the opponents reaction). As for the raiders; they only get a 4+ save when turboing and at that an immobilized result destroys it damaging its cargo. That means that on the vehicle damage chard a 3+ will destroy it. If you take a lascannon it has a 3+ to hit a 1 glances (in which case it still destroys on a 5+) and a 3+ destroys. That is roughly a 40% of loosing your raider, 20% if your in cover (which it makes sense you would be). Then if we look at a tournie 1850 list; how many lascannons or equivalents do you think they will have. Most likely at least 10 good anti-tank weapons. That should be exactly 2 raiders killed if they have cover. Considering that a witch squad with a hekatrix and agonizer in a naked raider is 210 points, a wrack squad with an acothyst and 2 liquifier guns in a naked raider is 210 points and a warrior squad with a sybrite, blaster and splinter cannon (or dark lance in which case it becomes 200) is 175 and that if you take out anything from these you no longer stand a good chance of beating tac marines in CC, there really is not much that can be done. On the first turn, if you don't go first, you loose about a third of your force to slogging it accross the table. Then on second turn you will loose more casualties and mobility. At that point it hardly seems worth it anymore. to run a raider rush when hellions are just as viable.

Personally I would love to run mostly wracks (maybe 3 squads), throw in a witch squad for termie distraction (1 probs), an incubi squad or two. Put some haemonculus with the incubi, ravager support and maybe a trueborn squad for some final anti-tank, but unless you can say you have been to a tournie and this didnt happen I'm inclined to believe the numbers.

mantastyle wrote:I simply have to disagree with you there. For starters, hellions have a second turn charge with a shooting attack on both first and second turn.

You deploy 24" from your opponent's deployment zone. Your opponent has 12" more beyond that line to deploy his army, meaning he can start 24-36" away from you. Two 12" moves and one 6" assault is not an assured assault by any means. This also presumes you are moving in a total straight beeline, he's directly across from you, and that terrain doesn't matter. I'll agree that a 2nd turn assault is possible if the opponent deploys in such a way as to invite assaults - generally units an opponent does that with are not the best things to assault, but you're accurate that with a good run roll and no terrain issues you can have a 2nd turn assault. This all also presumes the mission isn't Dawn of War.

Wyches in a Raider have a 45-50" threat range by Turn 2, they don't shoot but their transport gets one turn of shooting.
Hellions have a 32-43" threat range by turn 2 as long as they never shoot.
Wyches are faster and more reliable for assault on Turn 2.

As for the raiders; they only get a 4+ save when turboing

You're correct, I mistyped and/or thought of turboboosters.

If you take a lascannon it has a 3+ to hit a 1 glances (in which case it still destroys on a 5+) and a 3+ destroys. That is roughly a 40% of loosing your raider, 20% if your in cover (which it makes sense you would be).

Yes, since you moved flat out.
Also - the math would be roughly so; functionally 67% of the shots fired by a BS4 Lascannon would have no effect on the assault Raiders either because they missed or we made our cover save. You are correct that 20% (it's a little over 20, actually) would wreck or explode the Raider. So - out of 10 shots, 6 would miss, 2 Raiders would be wiped out, and 2 would have some sort of effect on them, this presumes they all fired at different stuff, yadda, yadda, yadda)

Then if we look at a tournie 1850 list; how many lascannons or equivalents do you think they will have. Most likely at least 10 good anti-tank weapons. That should be exactly 2 raiders killed if they have cover.

And if all of them can fire, and they have first turn shooting or we hurt nothing on our first turn of shooting.

But, a question. You seem to understand that people bring weapons to tournies that hurt vehicles - I agree with you, and I hate that my opponent brings weapons that hurt my vehicles.
Do you really think no one brings weapons to hurt infantry marching across the board? Trust me, they'll be trying to hurt them too - quite functionally, and they would need to do less than 20% casualties to your assault forces to have there be some advantage to the Hellions over the Raiders. (ignoring all the extra advantages Raiders bring)

Considering that a witch squad with a hekatrix and agonizer in a naked raider is 210 points, a wrack squad with an acothyst and 2 liquifier guns in a naked raider is 210 points and a warrior squad with a sybrite, blaster and splinter cannon (or dark lance in which case it becomes 200) is 175 and that if you take out anything from these you no longer stand a good chance of beating tac marines in CC

I think you're limiting your concept of what can happen in the assault. First off, yes, you can take out many of those things and still be a threat to a 10 man tactical squad. Second, there is no rule that you only need to send squads in a 1 on 1 match up versus a tactical squad. Third, a 10 man Wych squad has a fair chance of tieing combat or winning versus Assault Termies, much less a Tac squad.

unless you can say you have been to a tournie and this didnt happen I'm inclined to believe the numbers.

*cough*

Yeah, it's happened that the Raider Rush does work for me at tournies. It also works for a fair number of other players who run lists in a similar vein to mine, or at least Raider Rush of some sort or other.

Adam LongWalker wrote:Dash of pepper

Where in the newer codex is the Disintegrator on a Ravager a STR 7 AP2 template weapon? From my codex they are STR 5 AP2, Heavy 3 weapons?

Am I in error? If so please show me the page where I can see this, otherwise I think you are referring to the previous codex in which the Disintegrator was a STR 7 AP2 blast template.

Thank you.

He was comparing his list from the old codex to his list from the new one.

You deploy 24" from your opponent's deployment zone. Your opponent has 12" more beyond that line to deploy his army, meaning he can start 24-36" away from you. Two 12" moves and one 6" assault is not an assured assault by any means. This also presumes you are moving in a total straight beeline, he's directly across from you, and that terrain doesn't matter. I'll agree that a 2nd turn assault is possible if the opponent deploys in such a way as to invite assaults - generally units an opponent does that with are not the best things to assault, but you're accurate that with a good run roll and no terrain issues you can have a 2nd turn assault. This all also presumes the mission isn't Dawn of War.

Wyches in a Raider have a 45-50" threat range by Turn 2, they don't shoot but their transport gets one turn of shooting.
Hellions have a 32-43" threat range by turn 2 as long as they never shoot.
Wyches are faster and more reliable for assault on Turn 2.

If you deploy 24" away from your opponent, make two 12'' moves that puts you in their deployment zone and charge 6'' should send you easily inside that. After that if your opponent stays within 6'' of his table edge and does not move in either first or second turn, the list has clear done its job. Also, the hellions may sacrifice a turn of shooting to get a run role, if they like they may also sacrifice a second turn of shooting to get a second run role. Considering the situation here, I find it rare that more than a run role would be needed at all. Although it remains true that raiders have a about a 10 to 20 inch farther threat range that extra movement pushes the models off the board thus becoming wasted movement potential. As for moving in in a straight line; it seems silly to move in any direction that is not a straight toward the enemy. By deploying the hellions in a spread out pattern (especially with the 21 model squad) it would not be difficult to find a straight channel.

And if all of them can fire, and they have first turn shooting or we hurt nothing on our first turn of shooting.

True, however we must be ready for the times we don't get to go first (as much as I want to every time). It happens 50% of the time after all.

But, a question. You seem to understand that people bring weapons to tournies that hurt vehicles - I agree with you, and I hate that my opponent brings weapons that hurt my vehicles.
Do you really think no one brings weapons to hurt infantry marching across the board? Trust me, they'll be trying to hurt them too - quite functionally, and they would need to do less than 20% casualties to your assault forces to have there be some advantage to the Hellions over the Raiders. (ignoring all the extra advantages Raiders bring)

The thing here is that true the enemy will bring anti-infantry to the table, (most likely more anti-infantry than tank) but instead of 6-8 of (literally) the lightest armored tank in the game running with a standard cover save and taking additional defensive penalties for it, hellions bring 51 resilient models (21 of which have the same defensive stat line as SM -1 toughness, but their saves not able to be ignored by ap and 30 of which stand behind them with one less on their save).

I think you're limiting your concept of what can happen in the assault. First off, yes, you can take out many of those things and still be a threat to a 10 man tactical squad. Second, there is no rule that you only need to send squads in a 1 on 1 match up versus a tactical squad. Third, a 10 man Wych squad has a fair chance of tieing combat or winning versus Assault Termies, much less a Tac squad.

at this we have to agree to disagree. I don't think taking out the ld 9 from the witches is a good idea nor loosing their only power weapon. Admitadly you could remove standard witches but then you also have to remove thier razer flails and taking out wounds from an already delacate squad is dangerous.

Yeah, it's happened that the Raider Rush does work for me at tournies. It also works for a fair number of other players who run lists in a similar vein to mine, or at least Raider Rush of some sort or other

This is excellent stuff. What kind of lists did they run and do you know where I can get those sorts of tournament listings?

mantastyle wrote:This is excellent stuff. What kind of lists did they run and do you know where I can get those sorts of tournament listings?

Check any batrep by me or DaashofPepper using DE.

I'm really not sure if you're just being jokingly odd about this or not - but Raider Rush DE do very well at tourneys, and I've never seen a Hellion list win anything major.

I'll leave all the rest to agreeing to disagree.

Yo dash.. =) how do you make you Kabalite trueborns..and where do you get all the blasters from? =D im going to try your list next weekend=) Playing agains Nids,BA,IG,or GKs,or mabye necrons...
Thanks