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hello ladies and gentlemen. recent conundrum came up in a game. can you use third eye of tzeentch to cast curse of the horned rat.

Hm, RAW I don't see why not. The only prohibitions in Third Eye are "... provided those spells do not summon additional models or heal wounds suffered ...". 13th doesn't actually summon new models, nor does it heal wounds.

If you roll high enough, you replace the removed unit with a unit of Clanrats. I'd say that summons additional models.

I thought it was more referencing spells like the #6 Lord of the Wild spell, which summons a manticore, dragon, etc.

Actually I think it's referring to Invocation of Nehek or Regrowth or Summon Undead Horde.

In my view, summoning additional models is just that. Transforming models into something they weren't isn't a problem under third eye.

However, I'd suggest that against most skaven armies, plague would be a better choice anyway. Usually kills more models.

Yeah, going for a casting value of 25 to turn clan rats/slaves into... well... clan rats. You're probably better off with any AoE spell from whatever lore.

As awesome as it would be, the 13th cant be used as the spell it self has the chance to summon new models on the table. It would be cool though to have little chaos rats running around the table

It doesn't summon new models, it takes existing ones and replaces them; you still have the same amount of models on the table as you did before the spell, no new models were created.

New clan rat models where created.
Regardless of how you spin it the models replacing the ones gone are in fact new.

The exact wording is "summon additional models"; no additional models have been summoned.

they are additional to the Chaos army though arent they?
or are they still under control of the opposing player?

That depends on how you see 'additional models'. To me, an additional model is a model that wasn't already there to start with, but since the unit you turned into clanrats was there and they still technically are (albeit in a different form) I don't see them as additions to the battle.

Oh the irony of using fluff as RAW.
I miss Gwar! sometimes...

I'm afraid the irony is somewhat lost on me, I believe this is how the spell actually works in practice...

I agree to disagree.

well if the old models are removed and replaced with clanrats, then they are additional no?
since models were removed first, and then new models placed, they are 'additional models' as per the wording of the spell.

Avatar 720 wrote:That depends on how you see 'additional models'. To me, an additional model is a model that wasn't already there to start with, but since the unit you turned into clanrats was there and they still technically are (albeit in a different form) I don't see them as additions to the battle.

The models would still be additional even if the number is not, as I have read it.

kirsanth wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:That depends on how you see 'additional models'. To me, an additional model is a model that wasn't already there to start with, but since the unit you turned into clanrats was there and they still technically are (albeit in a different form) I don't see them as additions to the battle.

The models would still be additional even if the number is not, as I have read it.

On this point there where no clan rats there to start with

HoverBoy wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:That depends on how you see 'additional models'. To me, an additional model is a model that wasn't already there to start with, but since the unit you turned into clanrats was there and they still technically are (albeit in a different form) I don't see them as additions to the battle.

The models would still be additional even if the number is not, as I have read it.

On this point there where no clan rats there to start with

Unless it was cast onto a unit of clanrats.

Although I humbly disagree, I can do nought else but regurgitate my previous comments, so I retire from this discussion.

Not real clear, as third eye tends to be... at least they FAQ'ed it to allow the casting of most spells from lore of life!

As others have said, it's not likely to come up (as you can steal better / easier to cast spells) but I tend to agree with Avatar 720. Transforming models is different than summoning additional models.

Could someone post the relevant wording of the skaven spell here? I don't have that book, but I would think it would largely depend on the wording of the spell. If it says "transformed" or the like, I would lean even more towards Avatar 720's reading.

"the spell turns 4d6 of the targeted unit's models into Clanrats. . .remove the enemy models and replace them with Clanrats. . ."

It also goes on to say "If the casting player does not have enough models to replace the entire unit, transfigure what you can, the rest are considered destroyed. If the number rolled is not great enough to replace the whole targeted unit. . ."

"Transfigure"... I wouldn't say that equates to "summon additional models".

Although this now has me wondering about transformation of Kadon, since I had thought that would not be allowed... which would conflict with my current argument

To put another slant on the OPs question, what would happen if 13th was cast onto a unit of clanrats ?

According to the wording, they would be turned into clanrats, but as they already are clanrats, would there be any affect ? Are clanrats effectly immune to the spell . . .

Of course if the spell was cast on other Skaven infantry units (is this the correct terminology, I can't remember), such as giant rats, Stormvermin, plague monks, etc. then they would be transformed.

Regarding the 'summon' debate, as the number of models on the table wouldn't change (assuming the 4D6 is equal or over the target unit size), then I go with the replacement with clanrat argument. Of course in a tournament situation, the 3rd eye player is unlikely to have any clanrats with him to actually change the physical models into clanrats.

Just to put another spin on this....

Why are we assuming that "summon additional models...." applies to the table as a whole and not the player alone.

So lets say you manage to get this off, and change 20 clanrats into 20 clanrats, what would be the end result?

For the table, there is no change in models.

For the Chaos player? They sure did summon additional models (for their army) with that spell.

There are spells that specifically summon things. The #6 Lore of the Wild for Beastmen, for instance. The Vampire Counts spell that summons ghouls, skeletons or (I think) bats. Their whole purpose is to summon additional models.

The 13th is not one of these spells.

Lehnsherr wrote:Just to put another spin on this....

Why are we assuming that "summon additional models...." applies to the table as a whole and not the player alone.

So lets say you manage to get this off, and change 20 clanrats into 20 clanrats, what would be the end result?

For the table, there is no change in models.

For the Chaos player? They sure did summon additional models (for their army) with that spell.

Thank you,
its additional models for the casting player, not the table. Therefore, the 13th is not a valid target (?) for the 3rd eye

I think it's a valid target. Besides, you likely wont have a box of clanrats sitting around anyways, so you'll just be destroying the models.

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Lehnsherr wrote:Just to put another spin on this....

Why are we assuming that "summon additional models...." applies to the table as a whole and not the player alone.

So lets say you manage to get this off, and change 20 clanrats into 20 clanrats, what would be the end result?

For the table, there is no change in models.

For the Chaos player? They sure did summon additional models (for their army) with that spell.

Thank you,
its additional models for the casting player, not the table. Therefore, the 13th is not a valid target (?) for the 3rd eye

I assume you can provide some evidence of this?

All it says is "summon additional models", there is no mention as to whether this is in addition to the models on the table, in the armies, in the store, on Earth, on Mars etc.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

Lehnsherr wrote:Just to put another spin on this....

Why are we assuming that "summon additional models...." applies to the table as a whole and not the player alone.

So lets say you manage to get this off, and change 20 clanrats into 20 clanrats, what would be the end result?

For the table, there is no change in models.

For the Chaos player? They sure did summon additional models (for their army) with that spell.

Thank you,
its additional models for the casting player, not the table. Therefore, the 13th is not a valid target (?) for the 3rd eye

I assume you can provide some evidence of this?

All it says is "summon additional models", there is no mention as to whether this is in addition to the models on the table, in the armies, in the store, on Earth, on Mars etc.

fair enough, RAI i assumed it would be additional models for the casting player, rather than models in total.
Just my opinion though.
EDIT: although, using that interpretation of 'additional models' then any summoning spell could be a valid target for the 13th...? since there is no specification