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Hi, I'm New To Lizardmen And This Is My First List To Start Fantasy With Them. It Will Be Played At My Local GW So It Doesn't Need To Be Unbeatable Just Good Enough Thanks
I dont know too much about lizardmen but here are some well known tips that I always hear
-LM special characters are mediocre at best, terrible waste of points at the worst
-Saurus are you're bricks. Maybe buff them out a bit more
-single steggy might attract a lot of artillery fire
-salamanders seem to be the more popular beast compared to the razors
-Chakax is terribly overpriced. It's better to take a regular Saurus Scar Veteran.
-Skink Priests shouldn't be joining units which are meant to get into close combat.
-Temple Guard are really only useful if you have a Slann Mage-Priest in your army. If you don't, it's almost always better to just bring more Saurus Warriors.
-Terradons can do their role just fine in a minimum size unit (3). Any more Terradons in the same unit is a waste of points.
-Salamanders are far superior to Razordons. If you go with Salamanders though, I'd not run them in a single unit of 3, but rather in 2 seperate units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/27 15:19:44
-Chakax is terribly overpriced. It's better to take a regular Saurus Scar Veteran.
I'm not too sure, he's a great character killer and he can spot magic weapons and they are powerless against him, I guess if he's not in a challenge he's a waste but if he is then he is a killing machine!
Airmaniac wrote:-Skink Priests shouldn't be joining units which are meant to get into close combat.
Are Skinks even worth taking? I'm not too sure if i should drop 'em for more Saurus Warriors and replace the skink priest with an Oldblood. Yeah Skinks are not bad at shooting but to stop them from getting ripped to bits in combat you really need a few kroxigor in there which makes them really expensive.
Airmaniac wrote:-Temple Guard are really only useful if you have a Slann Mage-Priest in your army. If you don't, it's almost always better to just bring more Saurus Warriors.
They're not than many more points than a normal Saurus Warrior and they have a better save and a weapon that gives +1 Strength so are good against T4 armies such as dwarfs and orcs as well as WoC
Airmaniac wrote:-Terradons can do their role just fine in a minimum size unit (3). Any more Terradons in the same unit is a waste of points.
If not Chakax, how about Tiktaq'to?
Airmaniac wrote:-Salamanders are far superior to Razordons. If you go with Salamanders though, I'd not run them in a single unit of 3, but rather in 2 seperate units.
I'm not too fond of Salamanders, I'd probobly swap the Razordons for A Normal Steg if i have enough special points to spare, does that sound good?
Just to break things down for you to point out how bad Lizardmen special characters are.
Chakax is 335pts for what is effectively a Scar Vet with Great Weapon, Light Armour and some buffs in challenges. The Helm and the Key are pointless in most areas because everyone plays with open lists. You also get no benefit from his Bodyguard rule as you don't have a Slann, its of marginal use anyway as Ld9 Cold Blooded (often with a BSB re-roll) is near enough unbreakable anyway. For that cost I could get 3 Scar Vets with Light Armour and Great Weapons with room to spare. I terms of damage output they are miles ahead and just 2 Scar Vets could probably take Chakax down (first one challenges, causes 1 wound to Chakax then dies, the second finishes him off). You could even decline the challenge and then just chop him down with normal attacks (so he doesn't get re-rolls).
the stegs are going to die instantly to warmachines and/or magic, but they are very cool indeed; they are unstoppable on the charge. You can think of some chameleons or more terradons to deal with the machines, but magic will be a bit more tricky (you could take the diadem of power and some dispel scrolls, but I don't know if it is worth the points).
Tiktaq'to isn't worth the points in my opinion. What are you going to do with the guy? do you want to let him enter the rear of the battlefield? This will give you the chance of a turn 3 harassment, because he can't charge the turn he enters te table.If you field him the 'normal' way, he is going to attract a lot of fire, because he is very easy to kill with only two wounds. I would take a skink chief on a terradon for the harassment instead, or for a pretty awesome and manouverable flying BSB.
I would take skinks in skirmisher form rather than in rank and file. toughness 2 is going to make you lose every combat -.-
True, but keeping an open 55/110 points is better than wasting that points. Well, I must that the points are not wasted, but there are better uses for it.
In my opinion skinks with javelins have their place on the table, although an average of 2-3 wounds in the shooting phase isn't that much =P But realise that 1-2 of these wounds are made against any toughness. So get those skinks on the table to get rid of those monstrous creatures. And if they die, they were only 70/80 and they probably have saved your other (more useful) models for a round.
Pimmilicious wrote:True, but keeping an open 55/110 points is better than wasting that points. Well, I must that the points are not wasted, but there are better uses for it.
In my opinion skinks with javelins have their place on the table, although an average of 2-3 wounds in the shooting phase isn't that much =P But realise that 1-2 of these wounds are made against any toughness. So get those skinks on the table to get rid of those monstrous creatures. And if they die, they were only 70/80 and they probably have saved your other (more useful) models for a round.
- Pim
Yeah i just didnt know if Javelins were better than Blowpipes seeing as they have 2 shots each and a 6 to hit automatically wounds a target, so yeah they could do a good job against a giant and stuff. Also on Heroes, How many would be the best option at 2000 points? And would taking another steg be worth it?
T5 and W2 is pretty weak, in a round of combat I could have 6 RnF dwarf warriors direct attacks at him and it will probably kill him. This army book needs an update pretty bad, we now live in a world with armies getting access to weapons that cause D3 or D6 wounds. The Skaven book is very well written and a 215 pt Queek Headtaker or a 90pt Warlord with maybe 50 pts in equipment beats Chakax before he even get a chance to attack back.
Thus, After having thus successively taken each member of the community in its powerful grasp and fashioned him at will, the supreme power then extends its arm over the whole community. It covers the surface of society with a network of small complicated rules, minute and uniform, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate, to rise above the crowd. The will of man is not shattered, but softened, bent, and guided; men are seldom forced by it to act, but they are constantly restrained from acting. Such a power does not destroy, but it prevents existence; it does not tyrannize, but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd
-Alexis de Tocqueville.
Skink Skirmishers with Blowpipes are better than ranked units of Skinks. I'm not a big fan of Skink + Kroxigor units, as most opponents will strike down more Skinks than your Kroxigor can strike down models of them. This means you will almost never win combat.
Recommended Saurus unit size is never 15. If they have Spears, Saurus Warriors go 6 wide and attack with 3 ranks so you will need at least 18 of them in a unit to maximize damage. If they are taken without Spears they will generally be more of an anvil unit, which requires enough ranks to maintain Steadfast against Monsters and Monstrous Infantry. This means formations of 5 wide, at least 4 ranks.
Temple Guard are 16 points while Saurus are 11 points. That is a lot more (45.45%). The +1 save is only applicable to ranged attacks, as the Temple Guard cannot use their Shields in combat. In fact, Saurus Warriors without Spears have better saves in combat, as they get the Parry save as well. The Temple Guard do have +1S, but I doubt this is worth 5 points per model. I'd rather put a Scar Veteran with Great Weapon in a unit of Saurus Warriors if I'd want higher Strength attacks.
A unit of skink skirmishers with blowpipes is better while not moving. On the move the skinks with javelins are better (because of the quick to fire special rule).
When moved the skinks with blowpipes can each make 2 shots mostly hitting on a 7 (move, outside half range, multiple shots) or 1 shot hitting on a 6. Skinks with javelins will hit on a 5+ on the walk, so are in this case a little better.
When remained stationary, skinks with blowpipes can make 2 shots hitting on a 6, which gives you about 3-4 hits+wounds, while you still have the 5+ for the javelin skinks. The skinks with the blowpipes are a lot better here.
So the blowpipe skinks are better in shooting, while the javelin skinks are more manouverable and more survivable, because of the 6+ armour save and the 6+ ward save in combat. In my opinion the blowpipe skinks are more worth their points, but the javelin skinks are a bit better to stick your characters in (and they look better ^^).
The usefullness of stegs will be determined by your opponents army: against warmachines or magic heavy armies they will be not so good. you can take them to buff your combat abilities, but it will be a bit of a gamble.
Pimmilicious wrote:A unit of skink skirmishers with blowpipes is better while not moving. On the move the skinks with javelins are better (because of the quick to fire special rule).
When moved the skinks with blowpipes can each make 2 shots mostly hitting on a 7 (move, outside half range, multiple shots) or 1 shot hitting on a 6. Skinks with javelins will hit on a 5+ on the walk, so are in this case a little better.
When remained stationary, skinks with blowpipes can make 2 shots hitting on a 6, which gives you about 3-4 hits+wounds, while you still have the 5+ for the javelin skinks. The skinks with the blowpipes are a lot better here.
So the blowpipe skinks are better in shooting, while the javelin skinks are more manouverable and more survivable, because of the 6+ armour save and the 6+ ward save in combat. In my opinion the blowpipe skinks are more worth their points, but the javelin skinks are a bit better to stick your characters in (and they look better ^^).
The usefullness of stegs will be determined by your opponents army: against warmachines or magic heavy armies they will be not so good. you can take them to buff your combat abilities, but it will be a bit of a gamble.
- Pim
So that means I'll take the skink priest with Skirmishers with Javelins seeing as I want them to be more manouverable and keep him out of combat as much as possible.
I see what you mean, so I shouldn't be taking Stegs against war machine heavies such as dwarfs or magic armies such as the high elves?
Hargus56 wrote:T5 and W2 is pretty weak, in a round of combat I could have 6 RnF dwarf warriors direct attacks at him and it will probably kill him. This army book needs an update pretty bad, we now live in a world with armies getting access to weapons that cause D3 or D6 wounds. The Skaven book is very well written and a 215 pt Queek Headtaker or a 90pt Warlord with maybe 50 pts in equipment beats Chakax before he even get a chance to attack back.
If I recall correctly isn't Queek big on Challenges or has that been dropped? Also Chakax's rules give his opponent Always Strike Last, if Chakax challenges and they accept, he will smack them, if he challenges and the opponent refuses, they can't fight in the combat, if they send out a Champion instead of Queek, Chakax will win easy.
Also littlenibbler Orks aren't about armour saves.
Orks are about having too many models on the table, and wasting the other guy's time with your movement phase.
Orks are about having the toughest units on the table.
Orks are about not caring about how many bodies are left in a long winding trail until the squad is down to less than a third its starting strength.
Orks are about rolling more dice then you can count without the aid of a calculator or a pen and paper.
Orks are about having totally fething insane characters tearing gak down like Doc Grotsnik, Ghazghkull or Snikrot.
Orks are about being too fething awesome to die...
Hargus56 wrote:T5 and W2 is pretty weak, in a round of combat I could have 6 RnF dwarf warriors direct attacks at him and it will probably kill him. This army book needs an update pretty bad, we now live in a world with armies getting access to weapons that cause D3 or D6 wounds. The Skaven book is very well written and a 215 pt Queek Headtaker or a 90pt Warlord with maybe 50 pts in equipment beats Chakax before he even get a chance to attack back.
If I recall correctly isn't Queek big on Challenges or has that been dropped? Also Chakax's rules give his opponent Always Strike Last, if Chakax challenges and they accept, he will smack them, if he challenges and the opponent refuses, they can't fight in the combat, if they send out a Champion instead of Queek, Chakax will win easy.
That's where Chakax Excells, he will challenge your heroes and win, and if you refuse then you can't fight in the combat meaning the temple guard should smash the unit of dwarf warriors that he's with. For you it's a lose lose situation
Here is a flaw with the new rules in conjunction with chakax's rule that makes opponents strike last; as he has a GW he strikes last aswell as any other model he faces but if their initiative is higher than 3 the opponent will go before chakax.
Pimmilicious wrote:A unit of skink skirmishers with blowpipes is better while not moving. On the move the skinks with javelins are better (because of the quick to fire special rule).
When moved the skinks with blowpipes can each make 2 shots mostly hitting on a 7 (move, outside half range, multiple shots) or 1 shot hitting on a 6. Skinks with javelins will hit on a 5+ on the walk, so are in this case a little better.
When remained stationary, skinks with blowpipes can make 2 shots hitting on a 6, which gives you about 3-4 hits+wounds, while you still have the 5+ for the javelin skinks. The skinks with the blowpipes are a lot better here.
So the blowpipe skinks are better in shooting, while the javelin skinks are more manouverable and more survivable, because of the 6+ armour save and the 6+ ward save in combat. In my opinion the blowpipe skinks are more worth their points, but the javelin skinks are a bit better to stick your characters in (and they look better ^^).
You may want to consider that Javelins actually only have an 8" range, which is only slightly more than short range of the Blowpipes (which is 6"). So, if your Javelin Skinks can actually shoot, then the Blowpipes would probably have been firing at short range, making them hit on a 6+ (with multiple shots), against the 5+ of the Javelins Skinks. As Skinks have poison, the Blowpipes will deal more damage in this scenario.
Javelin Skinks aren't more mobile than Blowpipe Skinks? They have the same Movement value, can both march and fire, and are both Skirmishers.
Javelin Skinks are marginally more survivable. They have a 6+ armour save. The 6+ ward save in combat is useless, as Skirmishing Skinks will lose combat and break anyway (no static combat resolution and no steadfast).
So basically, Blowpipe Skinks are a lot better at shooting, while Javelin Skinks have a 6+ armour save against shooting and magic missiles (when the attack isn't armour piercing or S4+). I'm pretty sure I'd rather have Blowpipe Skinks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GoDz KI11JOY x wrote:Here is a flaw with the new rules in conjunction with chakax's rule that makes opponents strike last; as he has a GW he strikes last aswell as any other model he faces but if their initiative is higher than 3 the opponent will go before chakax.
This. Also, if the opponent has the Always Strikes First Special Rule, it negates Always Strikes Last.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/29 15:12:37
GoDz KI11JOY x wrote:Here is a flaw with the new rules in conjunction with chakax's rule that makes opponents strike last; as he has a GW he strikes last aswell as any other model he faces but if their initiative is higher than 3 the opponent will go before chakax.
In The GWFAQ
Pager 66 – Chakax, The Key to the Eternity Chamber
Change to “When fighting in a challenge, Chakax gains a 5+ ward save and his opponent Always Strikes Last
I think this means they have fixed it to say that Chakax will now strike first, meaning that the other character doesnt receive the always strikes last rule but rather goes last, as in the book it says the opponent has the rule.
mmm, I don't know if the discussion is worth it, because you would probably be more inclined to take a Slaan instead of Chakax. Allright, the Slaan is a lord, but you still want to field a skink priest with an engine of the gods above him. Are what do you think of a skink chief on a stegadon? that thing will obviously crush chakax.
But trying a game or two with Chakax could be fun ^^
Unless Chakax's opponent has ASF, they will hit at the same time regardless of Initiative as both models have ASL.
I'd rather go with a Scar Vet with the ASF sword, you'd even get re-rolls if you are fighting I3 or lower enemies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/30 01:07:58
I'd rather Gor-Rok if we have to take a lizard character ...
Jackster wrote:Unless Chakax's opponent has ASF, they will hit at the same time regardless of Initiative as both models have ASL. I'd rather go with a Scar Vet with the ASF sword, you'd even get re-rolls if you are fighting I3 or lower enemies.
How about two of them?
Scarvet - sword of the hornet, enchanted shield, dragonbane gem, light armor = 135 Scarvet - sword of swift slaying, dragonhelm, shield, light armor = 128
For 72 points cheaper than Chakax you get 2x vets with ASF swords, 2+ saves, and 2+ wards vs fire (Hell, you could use those points to make one of them an oldblood with identical kit, but a 1+ save thanks to his better scaly skin )
I haven't followed the discussion thus far too well, but there are certainly plenty of places for improvement. At the least, I vote for either grinding up the TG entirely to boost the saurus units (with no slann LIFE or LIGHT backup, I'd say 20-30 each) or start striping points to make the TG more of a threat. A BSB would be an excellent choice even with cold-blooded, as would some smaller units of skinks (whatever you end up giving them) to act as chaff, redirecting and such.
Spoiler:
I tweaked out a list if you'd like to see it:
H: Scarvet - sword of the hornet, enchanted shield, dragonbane gem, ironcurse icon, light armor = 140 [GENERAL] H: Scarvet - sword of swift slaying, dragonhelm, potion of speed, shield, light armor = 133 H: Priest - level 2, tepok = 115
There are those scarvets, and the TG are indeed gone in favor of muuuuuch beefier saurus blocks. On the skinks-n-krox unit, I couldn't figure out why you were running 23 - 22 + 2 krox makes for 5-wide / 6-deep or 6-wide / 5-deep (with skinks on both sides of the krox in that case) - so I cut it down and stuck some needed command in there. The priest doesn't necessarily need or want to run with them, so I filled his hole in. Otherwise, trimmed the terry brave and added a little more kit to the scarvets, but I guess you could add him back in if you wanted (he's not the best use of 10 points, but the ironcurse and potion of speed, while quite good value, are also a touch situational, while the brave is always giving the same benefit all the time. And maybe you like the idea of the little champ to add some character to the unit?)
- Salvage
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/03/30 04:53:00
Pimmilicious wrote:mmm, I don't know if the discussion is worth it, because you would probably be more inclined to take a Slaan instead of Chakax. Allright, the Slaan is a lord, but you still want to field a skink priest with an engine of the gods above him. Are what do you think of a skink chief on a stegadon? that thing will obviously crush chakax.
But trying a game or two with Chakax could be fun ^^
- Pim
I'm making my new list and so far for my heroes i've taken an Oldblood with Shield and Piranha blade, and i'm thinking of adding a slann, i've then got 2 units of saurus warriors (both 20, 1 with spears). Finally I have an Ancient Steg and 3 Barbed Razordons, The total takes me to 1206 points without the slann so im not sure what I should do next (I need skinks for sure and maybe another unit of saurus.) I could drop the Razors if they're not worth it but i like how they sound if they roll high on the artillery dice (6-10 each).Any Ideas?
Thanks
Spacewolves: 1850pts
Darkeldar: 1850pts
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