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Hey everyone, just figured I'd open myself up to teasing, advice, ridicule, and the fun of listing an army list here.
I've been trying to really hammer out my Tyranid play style and am still working at it. So I thought it might be
beneficially for me to list my current Army List's incarnation, and get some feedback, so here we go:

-Swarmlord (280) HQ
I find ol' Swarmy ends up being about the same as I'd pay for a Kit-ed out Hive Tyrant
anyway, and he provides endless destructive fun. Not to mention 18" synapse helps.

-Hive Guard Brood (100/380) Elite
- Unit: 2 (100)
With these guys they have nice punching power, decent range (for a Tyranid), and I love the
fact I don't need to worry as much about cover or line of sight. Still, its a real toss up betwee
them and Zoanthropes.

-Zoanthrope Brood (120/500) Elite
-Unit: 2 (120)
Not alot bad to say about these guys, other then their model is a pain to keep together at the hips.
I used to drop them in Mycetic Spores, but sometimes that just doesn't get them where I need them
right when I need them. Also, I prefer to save the points and Spores for other areas.

-Termagant Brood (150/650) Troop
-Unit: 15 (75), Devourers (75)
Well, I'm not sure how alot of people run their Termagants, but I fine if I want them to be at all worth
the time I put into moving them on the table, then Devourers are the way to go. The extra 6" range
and 3 shots each really helps with them.

-Hormagant Brood (150/800) Troop
-Unit: 15 (90), Adrenal Glands (30), Toxin Sacs (30)
Ok here is another core troop choice that always works its way into my army. I find that a nice swarm
of Toxin/Adrenal Horms can make ground chuck of a surprisingly high number of things. The other upside
is they are still much cheaper then Genestealers, and though they don't have Rending, they are fast buggers
who can really lay on the hits.

Tervigon (245/ 1,045) Troop
-Unit: 1 (160), Crushing Claws (25), Regeneration (30), Catalyst (15), Onslaught (15)
Part of my affection for the Tervigon here might just be that I had to kit-bash my own together out of spare
parts, but I really do like this ol' Mother. Spawning Termgants is fun, and even when she's all dried up, she's still
a 6 wound, Str 5 Monstrous Creature who gives out either Run & Shot to a squad or Feel no Pain. *AND* she
counts as a Troop choice? Heh, she's one mean green mother from outer space all right.

Genestealers (251 / 1,296) Troop
-Unit: 9 + Broodlord (186), Scything Talons (18), Adrenal Glands (30)
-Broodlord: Implant Attack (15), Scything Talons (2)
This is one I'm really torn about. Genestealers are strong, nasty, great in close combat, and the Brood Lord
makes them even more insane, but the cost of them really makes me want to shy away from them. Also, their
armor saves (as with much of the Tyranid forces) sucks, and they don't do well out of cover or close combat.
The brood lord though has won me entire games though with the Rending/Implant Attack (Instant Death) combo on
6s, so I can only complain so much. The look on another player's face when their Hive Tyrant is Instant Death'ed by
a Brood Lord giving it the ol' Kiss of Death is priceless.

Tyranid Shrike Brood (235 / 1,531) Fast Attack
-Unit: 5 (175), Barbed Strangler (10), Adrenal Glands (25), Toxin Sacs (25)
Another squad that I'm doing more for testing, I really want to like the Warriors, but their speed and lack of
Fleet, makes hard for me to get up in good Charge range with their Bonesword/Lashwhip combo. While these
guys lack the Boneswords/Lashwhips, they have decent Shooting, good Speed, and can help reinforce wherever
its needed, however its needed.

Carnifex Brood (250/1,781) Heavy Support
-Unit: 1 (160), Bio-Plasma (20), Frag Spines (5), Adrenal Glands (10)
-Mycetic Spore (40), Barbed Strangler (15)
Nothing quite like dropping the Living Battering Ram right down behind the enemy's tank lines and watching
the look on their face. It doesn't hurt the Mycetic Spore is itself a Str 6 Monstrous Creature with Lashwhip,
and the Bioplasma keeps the Carnifex from just standing their looking dumb the turn it disembarks. If I had the
points, I think I would drop at least 2 of these down.

Termgant Brood (65/1,847) Troop
-Unit: 13 (65)
Truthfully? I point sink that can hold a objective. Thirteen little guys who if they do anything at all, they have
exceeded my expectations. Still, its always useful to have that one extra backup troop squad in case you need
to hold one more point then your opponent.

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Well, that is my list. I'm still a little iffy on one or two things. I'm unsure if the Genestealers are worth the point investment, if I should
take both Zoanthropes *AND* Hiveguard, as well as the Shrikes... I keep wondering if a Squad of Raveners wouldn't fit in their spot better,
but at the same time, the Shrikes are handing out Synapse.... kind of a tough call. I really with I had room in this list for my Trygon Prime
or even another Carnifex, but this is not supposed to be 'nidzilla, I'm aiming more for a well balanced list that overwhelms the opponent
in the area of adaptability. Anyway, please comment and share advice/opinions. Thanks!

Ow! That is a TERRIFYING list!

I personally would remove the Genestealers in favour of more troops. You may have a tervigon, but if it runs out of larvae you're stuffed.

You could also use the points to get another Carnifex-1 of the great ugly critters is bad enough, but 2? Ooh, that will be horrible.

Your list looks effective but you still can make some changes:

Swarmlord isnt so effective (its costs too much) and its slow

Zoanthropes need Mycetic Spore or they will be shot down immidiately, at least they do something before they are shot down

More Hive Guards! They are one of the besti units in new book!

Devourer gaunts must have pod too so they can shoot something, this is too expensive unit for walking. Or then take Devourers off.

You need at least 2 Tervigons (I have exprience) one of them stops almost every time in first turn

Genestealers are too expensive, drop Adrenal Glands and Implant attack (Toxins are more useful if you want something (take something!!)) and maybe scything Talons they hit so many times anyway

Carnifexes are the most useless unit in new Codex. They never pay themselves back. They have only 4 wounds. I have tried it...


And this is only my opinion.

Sorry but no tervigon = not scary, they are probably the strongest unit in the dex right now. SL isn't worth his points, id go for tyrant with wings for your style and join him with the warriors maybe.

Sorry, only 1 tervigon, and the dev gaunts arn't worth it really, they work a lot better in a spore.

Carnifexes ain't useless. I've seen them wipe the floor with the enemy, and besides, the fellow who started the thread says he's had good experience with them.

I'm going to be very blunt with you here, but your army has so many holes in it that I were to put your list in water, it would sink right away. Some of the issues I see with your army.

1) Swarmy (or any hive tyrant) needs at least 1 tyrant guard. This is so that the unit can get a cover save from a screening gant unit. This is not a consideration. It is a MUST HAVE if you are planning to run such an expensive HQ (actually, for all tyrants without wings).

2) You need more anti-tank and some redundancy here. I would go for a minimum of 2x2 hive guards. They are the most efficient unit in the tyranid codex to take down non-land raider transports.

3) Tervigon is way too expensive for a support unit, which is essentially what he is. Drop crushing claws. Never kit him out to be assaulty....there are much better units for that. Drop everything else but Catalyst. The only upgrades you should ever consider for the tervigon are adrenal glands, catalyst and toxin sacs.

4) Genestealers - drop the talons and swap out adrenal glands for toxin sacs. Swarmy gives them prefered enemy and now they get re-rolls to hit and to wound against MEQ's (Marine equivalents). It's either toxin sacs or no upgrades at all.

5) Shrikes - swap out adrenal glands for rending. Rending is a MUST on tyranids warriors or shrikes if you don't give them boneswords. This way, you can hurt non-land raider transports.

6) Carnifex - either keep him naked with just adrenal glands and frag spines or 2x twin-linked brainleech devourers. For sporing carnies, dakkafexes are the way to go (w/2x TL-Devourers).


Your army has a lot of "fat" that can be trimmed to make it a lean, mean eating machine. Nom nom nom......

jy2 wrote:I'm going to be very blunt with you here, but your army has so many holes in it that I were to put your list in water, it would sink right away. Some of the issues I see with your army.

1) Swarmy (or any hive tyrant) needs at least 1 tyrant guard. This is so that the unit can get a cover save from a screening gant unit. This is not a consideration. It is a MUST HAVE if you are planning to run such an expensive HQ (actually, for all tyrants without wings).

2) You need more anti-tank and some redundancy here. I would go for a minimum of 2x2 hive guards. They are the most efficient unit in the tyranid codex to take down non-land raider transports.

3) Tervigon is way too expensive for a support unit, which is essentially what he is. Drop crushing claws. Never kit him out to be assaulty....there are much better units for that. Drop everything else but Catalyst. The only upgrades you should ever consider for the tervigon are adrenal glands, catalyst and toxin sacs.

4) Genestealers - drop the talons and swap out adrenal glands for toxin sacs. Swarmy gives them prefered enemy and now they get re-rolls to hit and to wound against MEQ's (Marine equivalents). It's either toxin sacs or no upgrades at all.

5) Shrikes - swap out adrenal glands for rending. Rending is a MUST on tyranids warriors or shrikes if you don't give them boneswords. This way, you can hurt non-land raider transports.

6) Carnifex - either keep him naked with just adrenal glands and frag spines or 2x twin-linked brainleech devourers. For sporing carnies, dakkafexes are the way to go (w/2x TL-Devourers).


Your army has a lot of "fat" that can be trimmed to make it a lean, mean eating machine. Nom nom nom......

I agree with most of the above. Shrikes need rending, stealers don't need scything. 2*2 hive guard is optimal.

You can use adrenal on stealers but only when you need that +1S ie ripping open transports. If you intend for other units to open the transports for them then TS. Implant attack on the broolord is a bit too expensive for my liking. You can stick another stealer in for that price.

Guard is essential for swarmlord and possibly even 2 - look at lashwhips as well.

Tervigons are great, but you need to build the list around them and I would run at least 2 or not at all.

Carnifexes in spores can work, but you need to have a couple of spores - say fexes, devilgaunts and zoeys all dropping to saturate their target options. 1 spore on it's own will do little. A fex doesn't really need AG.

Why no love for the trygon?

HQ: IMO, always take a prime unless your playing a stealer/trygon list in which case take a tyrant with HC. The prime is the best value for points and sticking him in a unit means that he can be pretty survivable. I also think that he's really, really cool

Elites: Spam hive guard, they are your best anti- transport your going to get. I'm not a huge fan of Zoanthropes. Drop podding them is risky because if you scatter unfavourably, then that is your anti- tank made useless and most armies have units that can shoot them to death if they run. Better to have trygons, me thinks...

Troops: I'd never take devigaunts, as they are far to expensive for what they do and they will be obliterated to rapid fire bolters like no tomorrow. I'd say that the only way to run gaunts is with no upgrades at all and just use them like grots, for cover and blocking off assaults. Take them in mobs of 16-20.

The only way I'd run homogaunts is outflanking them with the tyrants HC ability and with poison glands and about 12-15 to keep costs down. I managed to one turn a night bringer with this, and the gaunts then survived his explosion, which was by far their finest hour!

I think I'm going against the tyranid player hive mind, but I really don't rate tervigons. It'll spawn about 20 gaunts in a game, which come out piece meal in squads about about 10 or so and do what? Nothing, because termagaunts can't kill anything, and they will die so quickly because their in tiny mobs. I also don't see many people mentioning the fact that if it does die, all termagaunts in 6" get 3D6 strength 3 hits, so all those gaunts that your kept close of the AG/TS are pretty much dead or useless and most armies have a variety of ways to quite easily a Tervigon. I was playing Necrons who shot to death my Tervigon with destroyers, whilst it was in cover, and due to the small table, my Tervigon was in range of 3 termagaunt squads which were pretty much wiped out and went from dominating to loosing within a minute. A clever opponent will get the Tervigon down to a wound or two and wait till its close to your gaunts to finish it off.
However, unless your playing stealer rush, you need them to replace the 'mobile cover' (the best way to think of gaunts) over time and to sit on objectives. If fact, that is the best thing for them, sitting on objectives with a massive blob of gaunts around them to stop anything getting close. If your going to take them, take at least 2 and I'd only give it catalyst to keep points down. FNP gaunts can be ok if they are charged.

When it comes to stealers, take about 6-8 and outflank them. There's just enough there to take out an enemy unit without costing to many points.

Shrikes are a waste of points unless you take gargoyles to cover them, even then they aren't great.

I have never, ever understood why people drop pod carnifexes when they could take a Trygon for the same points which is better at just about everything. Carnifexes were, sadly, completely nerfed with the 5th ed codex, and I have yet to see a carnifex build that is good at something. If you can check out the old nid dex and look at the carnifex section. You could pretty much get the current 160 point fex for 101 points, and a 113 point carnifex which had 8 twin linked BS 3 with a 18" range at S8 shots that re- rolled to wound, and could be taken as a elites choice!!

If your new to nids, I would like to tell you that you'll have a lot of fun playing them, though I can't. You have lots of units you take because there is nothing better to take (tervigon/trygon/hive tyrant) and a very slow moving army. I got sick of being shot to death every game before I had a chance to do anything and that's why I've been between armies for so long, looking for an army I like.

I miss the old dex

Well, unlike what others have said the list isn't that good I'm afriad. Reason why myself and others are saying is it's not good is because we're competitive players and we like the strongest lists. Anyway..

Swarmlord needs a Tyrant Guard with a lash whip to get cover. No cover = dead Swarmlord.

Hive Guard I prefer, if you do take Zoanthropes you need a Pod.

Termagants ok.

Hormagaunts do not need adrenal glands. Keep them cheap and in min units of 20 with toxin sacs.

Tervigons should come in pairs for saturation, see a smart player will blast the Tervigon which stops spawning your little bugs and it will kill some when it dies too. Take two incase of that or it burns out.

Genestealers are cool the Broodlord is not. Genestealers do work well in small units assaulting, because either way they will win assault consolidate and be shot to ribbons leaving only a few left which don't have much impact on assault.

Shrikes ok if you take Gargoyles. I'd prefer Raveners as they can move quicker and harder hitting in assault with rending claws.

Carnifex doesn't need a spore with that load out as it will die and probably miss with the strangler. You want to do that get double devourers which will cause some pain, though expect the Fex to die next turn. TBH I'd walk it up the board with the rest.

Well, I've been soaking up everyones replies and comments and its given me lots of food for that.
I appreciate everyone commenting and giving me such good info. With that in mind, I've begun tinkering
with my list 2.0. Again, I'd love to hear comments and criticisms, as they really help me evaluate things I
would normally not think of. Anyway, here it is, my 1850 Tyranid List, Mark II:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Swarmlord HQ (280 / 280)
I know alot of people were iffy about him because of his high cost, and I agree he is quite expensive
for a straight Melee HQ, but I've had really solid experience with him. His 18" synapse, psychic powers,
Bone Sabres, and Swarm Leader all just seem to me to make it worth devoting the points. Also, when
all else fails, I'm surprised how much actual staying power he has.

Tyrant Guard Brood Retinue (130 / 410)
Unit: 2 (120), Lash Whips (10)
I agree with everyone's comments that having Tyrant Guard is the only way to go when using HT or Swarmy.
They were missing in my last list as more of a accidental oversight, which had I ran that list last Tourney, could
have really hurt me. I love their Lashwhip set up, and actually got 5 of the old OOP ones from Ebay with Lashwhips
and Shields just so I would never have to worry about Wysiwyg tournaments.

Tyranid Prime HQ (100 / 510)
Unit: 1 (80), Lashwhip & Bonesword (15), Deathspitter (5)
Ok, here is a weird new addition to my list, but I've play tested with this set up abit, and been really pleased
how a squad of warriors with LW & BS and Deathspitters led by a Tyranid Prime has performed. I usually don't go
for the double HQ thing, but I find the Prime with this gear really works well.

Hive Guard Elite (100 / 610)
Unit: 2
Here is a place I've taken everyone's advice and dropped the Zoanthropes for the moment, and decided to
try and run two squads of Hive Guard, two strong each. With luck this will really help with Anti-Tank, but time
will tell.

Hive Guard Elite (100 / 710)
Unit: 2

Tyranid Warrior Brood Troop (250 / 960)
Unit: 5 (150), LW & BS (75), Deathspitters (25)
I'm not sure how other people will feel about this set up, but led by a Prime, I've had lots of good luck with
this. Since they are not Fleet, I could never see going completely CC with Warriors, and I've found a new respect
for the Deathspitter after this squad slaughtered a Space Wolves Terminator Squad.

Hormagant Brood Troop (160 / 1,120)
Unit: 20 (120), Toxin Sacs (40)

Hormagant Brood Troop (160 / 1,280)
Unit: 20 (120), Toxin Sacs (40)
Ah, my shock troops. A pain to move on the table, and susceptible to shooting like nothing else, yet I've always
had a soft spot for these guys, and they rarely let me down. Oh, sure they almost never make it to turn 5, but they
always seem to manage to crush that key-pin unit that is giving me trouble, or psych my opponent out enough to
give me a slight edge. Not sure what others think of 40 Hormagants on the table, but I'm all ears on opinions.

Termagant Brood Troop (200 / 1,480)
Unit: 20 (100), Devourer (100)
Hmm, another one I've heard alot of mixed opinions about. I've had some good luck with these guys, and the
shear amount of fire they send out is awesome. Almost took a spore with them, but realized with a Trygon on the
field, it would be better to utilize the tunnel they make.

Trygon Heavy Support (225 / 1,705)
Unit: 1 (200), Regen (25)
I got alot of comments about the lack of Trygon in my list. Truthfully, I've only recently gotten the model, and not
tried it out much, but it seems like a solid choice, and I'm going to give it a run.

Raveners Fast Attack (145 / 1,850)
Unit: 4 (120), Devourers (25)
I just recently got 6 of these bad-boys, and am still trying to get a feel for them. I really wish I had had the chance
to get them Rending or Deathspitters, but the points just weren't there. Still, hopefully they will make a good follow-up
act to the Trygon and Devilgaunts coming out of reserve.

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Well, thats the adjusted list. I'm looking forward to everyones comments and opinions, as this does feature some major changes.
I lost the Carnifex in pod, dropped the Tervigon, and the Generstealers, in favor of Warriors and Trygon. Anyway, please feel
free to leave any feedback, and let me know what you think!

GAH!

I hate people who endlessly witter on that the Carnifex is useless-mostly because it isn't.

The Carnifex has plenty of advantages over the Trygon, notably:

It can take the heavy bio-weapons (the Stranglethorn Cannon and the Heavy Venom Cannon). If only the Trygon could say the same.

It has access to Bio-Plasma-which is very usefull against Terminators. The Trygon has nothing like this.

Give it 2 sets of Devourers, and it can pump out 12 shots a turn. Admittedly, so can the Trygon Prime, but where as a Carnifex with 2 sets of Devourers is 190 points, a Trygon Prime is 240 points. That's 50 points more than the Carnifex.

When it comes to anti-tank duties, the Carnifex really, REALLY fits the bill.

If a tank is attacked in melee by a Trygon, there's a good chance it will be destroyed.

If it's attacked by a Carnifex, then it has absolutely no chance of surviving at all. Especially if you give it Adrenal Glands- S10+2D6 for armour penetration! Even a Land Raider will struggle to survive that!

Speaking of things that the Carnifex is better at dealing with than the Trygon, there's that horrible T8 Wraithlord. Trygon can wound it on a 6+-5+ if it's charging with Adrenal Glands. Carnifex can wound it on a 3+-2+ ifit's charging with Adrenal Glands.

Carnifexes can be taken in broods of 3-Trygons cannot.

In short, no, the Carnifex is not useless. What I WILL say is that it's better optimized for shooting than close combat, but that's hardly a fatal flaw.

And to those of you complaining about the price, remember:

the 4th edition Carnifex was actually unfairly cheap, considering you effectively got a Dreadnought for under 150 points-it would have been unfair to have not increased the cost.

The Carnifex is still a lot cheaper than a Trygon-if it becomes much more expensive, then chances are you've over-equipped it. They don't need that many goodies to be horrendously effective.

Squigsquasher wrote:
I hate people who endlessly witter on that the Carnifex is useless-mostly because it isn't.

I must say I agree with you.
I play planetstrike and are begining to assemble a tyranid host and at least 3fexes is my ambition. Why? you would ask, well simply because 570p for a fex brood that throws out 36 s6 twin linked shots on the deepstrike (add 60p and you have 3 s7 ap2 blasts) and dominates my enemy (tau/ig) in close quarter combat AND can bust open those pesky bastions. And guess what, I still have 2 heavy choices left so I can throw in a trygon/mawloc or biovore.

My point is that i dont think the carnifexes are crap like all you others dictate and that i agree with Squigsquasher completely.

//Gar'Ang

Well, I've gotten a chance to try this list out twice recently, and so far its alright.
I'm still mildly "iffy" about the Trygon vs. Carnifex issue, and I really like the Raveners
so far. They are like a weird blend of Warriors and Genestealers who can charge 12".

I finally got the last of my big expansion order, so I now got 48 Hormagants, 42 "Devil"
Termgants (I like Devourers), all 7 of my Raveners, 20 Gargoyles, and a whopping 4
Carnifexes (2 Double Scything, one Scythe/Crushing as Old One Eye, and 1 with
HVC and TL-Devourers with Brainleech Worms). This is added to my already sizeable
collection... now I just got to figure out what the right play style for me is. I hope people
will still keep giving me feedback, as so far its really helped.

Anyway, cheers and thanks everyone.

Carnifex has 4 wounds, trygon has 6. To me, that is the real clincher. Just compare the statline and what special rules see what you get for 40 points extra, and you see what better value the trygon is. Brainleach worm fex is probably the best build, but compare the price of it to a rifleman dread and you'll see its nothing to write home about. A GK venerable rifleman dread is just a little bit more and so much better.

@Gar'Ang: You know you can only put 1 fex in a pod or is there something in planet strike that allows them to drop in?

In planetstrike all models except vehicles may deepstrike and those who have deepstrike already may assault in the turn they arrive to.

If you change your HQ for a Prime he gives the Alpha rule to one of your squads of Warriors and costs So much less giving you more flexibility towards some more fexs.

I would also get rid of the Zoans as people tend to target them if they know what's good for themselves. They do get alot of benefits but if your opponant gets first turn they are stuffed. I would trade them in for a Trygon, or Mawloc, depending on your tendancies.

Hope this has been helpful
Hezekial

You allready have a lot of constructive comments in the previous posts.
In your list you make a big salade of a lot of different things. Quitely a big problem in 40k games.
No redundancy, no saturation and no sinergy actually grants you only a fail.

I will advice you my standard competitive footslogging list for 1850 games:

HQ - Tyrant - Paroxism & Leech Essence - double TL Devourer - Old Adversary. 225
.....- 1x Tyrant Guard - Lashwhip. 65
EL - 2x Hive Guards. 100
EL - 2x Hive Guards. 100
EL - 2x Hive Guards. 100
TR - 10x Termagants. 50
TR - 10x Termagants. 50
TR - Tervigon - Adrenal Glands - Toxin Sacs - Catalyst. 195
TR - Tervigon - Adrenal Glands - Toxin Sacs - Catalyst. 195
TR - 10x Genestealers. 140
HV - Trygon - Adrenal Glands. 210
HV - Trygon - Adrenal Glands. 210
HV - Trygon - Adrenal Glands. 210
Tot. 1850



Carnifex have a big big problem mates, they're still good in some particular config, no doubth but they cost twice in comparison of the old codex.. damn.

A simple Trygon, 200 pts, vs a well equipped Carnifex, 2x TL Dev. + AG = 200 pts, will win for a simple and good reason.

AS = 5 and re-roll in CC. Alwais, even with no option.

Want you talk about the deployment possibilities?
Or even about the 6 wounds?

No match. I'm sorry.

Hmmm... I've began noticing some themes in a lot of "competitive" 'nid lists:

Trygon > Carnifex: Most people seem to agree that for the most part, the new
codex has made Carnifexes sub-optimal. They are pretty costly I agree, and
since they aren't Fleet, and have to foot-slog it, seem to draw tons of fire.

Hive Guard: The general consensus seems to be that Hive Guard are a must-have
Anti-Transport for Tyranids in this edition. I've had decent enough luck with
them, better then Zoanthropes which require simply too many rolls where something
can go wrong (Psychic Power Roll, Scatter or To Hit Roll, Wound Roll....).

Tervigon: Spam in as many as you can to spam out troops. I really like the Tervigon,
but I really think some people go overboard with the number of them in their
lists. I love spawning more troops, and they have solid buffs, but still... I can't
see ever running more then two in anything less then Apocalypse.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Units I haven't seen alot of discussion about have been Lictors, Biovores, Tyrannofexes,
Gargoyles, Shrikes, and Harpies.

I custom built a Harpy and ordered FW Shrike Wings, and have had some fun with a Jump Infantry
focused 'nid force, though I'm not sure if I'd make it anything competitive. But I'd still love to hear
others opinions on these units.

Excuse me, people actually miss the 4th edition Codex? That Codex sucked! Venom Cannons were useless, Warriors and Carnifexes were BS 2, we didn't have half the units we have now, Warriors only had 2 wounds and a 5+ save, swarmy armies were unviable, and the army was completwely incapable of fighting at range. The Codex has got better. Any difficulties we may have aren't down to our Codex being too weak, they're down to everyone else's Codexes being too strong.

Squigsquasher wrote:Excuse me, people actually miss the 4th edition Codex? That Codex sucked! Venom Cannons were useless, Warriors and Carnifexes were BS 2, we didn't have half the units we have now, Warriors only had 2 wounds and a 5+ save, swarmy armies were unviable, and the army was completwely incapable of fighting at range. The Codex has got better. Any difficulties we may have aren't down to our Codex being too weak, they're down to everyone else's Codexes being too strong.

Can't argue you there. This past weekend I was in a awesome tourney. The second round game was intense against a Blood Angels
player. He spammed Dreadnoughts in Drop-pods. For their points the Furiosos are insanely powerful. Compared point-by-point to anything
we can field, its ridiculous, but overall the Space Marines always seem to have that little 'Ooomph' over other armies.

I played against a blood angels army of full sanguinary guard. It would have been a slaughter if I had any other army, but I held my own and nearly came through to win, although my luck let me down loads and even at the end I didn't roll high enough for that last crucial turn. It was an awsome game though