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Hey all,

I was hanging out at one of the FLGS near my house and discovered Flames of War. Immediately it piqued my interest as I've always been a history buff and enjoy wargaming, so obviously it fits the bill. My issue is that I don't want to fall into the same pitfall I did with my warhammer, that being purchasing models without any kind of plan or idea. I actually want to collect a cohesive and effective force. I've always enjoyed the early war period so I thought that it would be as good a place as any to start. I wanted to do a French armored group, as I had a look at the models on the FoW website and really liked them, and in addition the French tanks far outclassed the German equivalent, which is another bonus for me. In a nutshell I was hoping that I could get some advice on how to go about starting an army (as in what are good units to get, how many points etc etc) before I start making purchases.

Thanks in advance!

Buy lots of white flags.

Because thats clearly helpful

Big P wrote:Buy lots of white flags.

the legit made me laugh out loud, not helpful comment but sure as hell hilarious.

On a more serious note I think its cool your going to play french I am just starting FoW myself, and have not heard or seen of that kind of force it could be interesting.
I have know advice for you gaming wise since im a noob still, but i support your idea if that helps.

Thanks for the support! Only reason I decided to play french is that no-one else seems to be playing them, and I find it boring to play the same army as everyone else, hence the choice of early war. I would also consider playing the polish, or possibly the british armor, but for now my choice is the french

The French are a cool army but the one thing you will find with their armor is that despite how well armored and armed they are the French armor suffer greatly without the ability to move and fire. They are great on the defense but in an offensive engagement they suffer horribly. This makes you very vulnerable to flanking attacks by the much faster German armor troops.

i would love to do a polish army for sure

Well I dont play FOW so cant help with what to buy but two of the guys at my club have French armies for 1940 for our WW2 rules of choice - Rapid Fire.

The problem with the French is that although the tanks are better (though thats debateable - lack of radios and one man turrets limited effectiveness, the heavy tanks suffered from side hull mounted engine grills that had hardly any armour and could be penetrated by the Pak36 37mm gun), in theory, their command and control is sorely lacking, and their armoured doctrine is fundamentally flawed.

Despite this they did give the German a bloody nose on occasion in 1940, but on the whole, deployed in small groups, their armour was less than successful.

Shame really as many of the infantry fought extrememly well. The army was let down by a ponderous high command who were trying to fight WW1, poor communications and an enemy who had fully adopted all the communications technical advantages of the period.

Im doing BEF and Dutch for my Early War armies... With a smattering of French Chassuer-Alpins for Norway. I hope to get to a Polish army at some point, but it wont be for a few years... Hungarians, Romanians and Slovaks call first!

I think things like radio shouldnt play too much in part with fow. It is very abstract. I dont play EW so correct me if I'm wrong but I hear French and Polish armies are very powerful and germans may have a hard time with their puny stuff!

So not historically accurate then?

German 38t tank crews did well against heavier tanks. Even in 1941 Hermann Bix was using his 38th to knock-out KV-1s.

Radios are the key element in the German Blitzkreig... Having a rules system that dont take them into account would be a little odd...

Its what made the German army a success in 1939-41!

If I was to play an EW force, what would my most effective choice be to deal with a German Panzerkompanie, or German Infantry? I don't want to play either as those will be my main opponents, so its down to the polish, french, and british armor

Big P wrote:So not historically accurate then?

German 38t tank crews did well against heavier tanks. Even in 1941 Hermann Bix was using his 38th to knock-out KV-1s.

Radios are the key element in the German Blitzkreig... Having a rules system that dont take them into account would be a little odd...

Its what made the German army a success in 1939-41!

He's wrong P. The French not having radios would make them subject to the Hens and Chicks rule which is a huge drawback in FOW.

Ahhhh... Now that makes sense!

Cool, good to see such a fundamental issue is modelled in some way.

What about a 1500pt list such as this

HQ S35 105
5 S35- 520
5 S35-520
H39 long, 4 shorts- 250
3 panhards-105

The Somua are probably the best tanks or at least tied for the best tank in early war. The problem with your list is that it will have a hard time holding objectives with no infantry. You really want to have some staying power to your army list so I would really look into getting at least one mech infantry platoon in there to grab an objective and hold it.

What would be the best unit to drop to do that?

Big P wrote:Ahhhh... Now that makes sense!

Cool, good to see such a fundamental issue is modelled in some way.

Also with the 'stormtrooper' rule for Germans, it works the other way as well. Greatly increases mobility letting you hit stuff quickly, and is also bloody annoying to play against

Before investing in your army you should make sure people in your area play early war it is still fairly new and a lot of people might not have armies for it yet. Also French tanks really do hurt because of the one man turret rule . They need infantry support because they can't play the Mobil battle game so when faced with hordes of infantry you will find your self either never shooting or standing your ground and being assaulted they need the infantry to hide in and use as assault soakers . Plus something needs to pin enemies so you can assault them

That is a good point. Me and a few of my friends have all agreed to start collecting EW stuff so theres no issue there. I will work on a revised list that has infantry included

The inherent problem with Early War (not just FW, but any system) is that the rules must effectively force players to act as if they have a ridiculous high command (or whatever) despite the potency of their equipment, or the accuracy starts to go out of the window, much the same way as late war stuff needs to take into account the incredible logistics problems in order to prevent everyone having Tigers. But then its rather frustrating knowing that your tanks would win more battles if you could just deploy them en masse...or that the British actually have their own 88, and could have been wiping the floor with the Panzers from the get-go... a conundrum?

I've got a 1500 point French Escadron de Combat that's made up of the tanks in the French Tank army box, a battery of 105mm artillery, and sporadic interceptors. The only opponent that I've played EW against to date is running the German Panzer army box, along with a Stuka Schwerepunkt. I modeled my list after the 2nd DCM, which means that the Hotchkiss platoons are arranged with a single long-barrelled H35 and two snub-barrelled H35s.

My overall list is -

H35 long barrel (company commander)
4xS35 Somuas
3xS35 Somuas
Minimal-sized mixed Hotchkiss H35 platoon
Minimal-sized mixed Hotchkiss H35 platoon
5xPanhards
105mm artillery battery
Sporadic interceptor support

I've played a total of four games against my opponent. He won the first three, and I modified my list to the way that it is now (originally I had the 75mm guns, which are more accurate; but the lower AT and FP made them pretty much useless). I've only played him one game since then, and I had a solid win.

Some notes - My opponent has mixed platoons of Panzer Is and Panzer IIs, and the former are only armed with machine guns. Ergo, roughly a third of his vehicles are useless when fighting against me. And he still managed to win most of our games.
- The snub-barrelled Hotchkiss tanks are HORRIBLE. Their low AT makes it difficult to hurt anything. Their short range makes it difficult for them to get shots in the first place.
- The long-barrelled Hotchkiss tank is a better vehicle, but I personally still think that the uparmored Panzer II is better. Note that fielding mixed platoons of Hotchkiss tanks is actually quite dangerous because it allows your opponent to gun tank your platoon commander. Fortunately, that doesn't seem to have occured to my opponent yet...
- I'm of the opinion that running your Company Commander as a Hotchkiss is better than running him as a Somua. The former allows you to add another long-barrelled Hotchkiss to the mix, while the latter makes you more reluctant to put one of your most powerful tanks on the front line (since losing your company commander is a bad thing).
- The One Man Turret rule is deceptively nasty. Because of it, your opponent will ALWAYS get the opportunity to fire the first shot. Either you'll move into range and be unable to shoot until he does, or he'll move into range and get a shot off before you can fire at him. Either way, be aware that you're never going to fire first.
- Due to the One Man turret rule and RoF 3, I'd personally rate the Panzer III as a better tank than the Somua S35. The former has a slightly lower FA value, but the RoF and ability to move and fire more than make up for it. Additionally, careful work by the German player means that the slightly better FA on the Somua won't amount to much. If the Panzer IIIs move around to the flanks of the Somuas, then the French won't be able to do anything to fix the situation without losing the opportunity to fire back. And the armor on the Panzer IIIs is the same as the SA on the S35s.
- Ironically, the armored cars you get are pretty good. They don't suffer from the One Man Turret rule, and their AT value is the same as the S35. Their FP value isn't as good (it's 5+), but the ability to move and fire more than makes up for it. Unfortunately, they're a Recon platoon, which means that they're not going to be able to trade shots with an opponent (since a Penetrating hit will force them to take a motivation test to avoid regrouping).
- You have access to both 75mm guns and 105mm guns. The 75mm guns have their own special rules, and you should be aware of them before you choose which battery to add (assuming you add an artillery battery). Though the drawbacks to the 75mm guns (low AT and FP in bombardment) should also be remembered.
- If your opponent is using a Stuka Schwerepunkt, then adding in the Sporadic Interceptors is always a good option. They're cheap, and they're the only form of AAA available to you. And if you stop his aircraft just once then you've probably made your points back.

Here's a link to What Would Patton Do, a fantastic FoW website. If you check the Battle reports section, you'll see a TON of early war French. You can also scroll to the bottom of the page (look for Categories) and click on France.

http://www.whatwouldpattondo.net/

That being said, I'll have to threadjack for a moment. Speaking of Early War, is the British Armoured Regiment any good? And what about the British infantry box set?

Well, I just got back from playing in the Adepticon EW tournie using a French FV (active) Compagnie list. I ran a historically accurate list depicting the 59th DLI and came in second to last!

....I did, however, win Best Painted Allied army (which is what I was hoping for)!

Here are my thoughts:

-Either run an Infantry or Motorised/Armor Co. exclusively. French tanks suffer when performing infantry support. It's not worthwhile to spend 100+ points on 2+ pillboxes. Pts spent on them in in infantry cos. is better spent on guns or artillery.

-If you decide to run French infantry, buy Forged In Battle. They are cheap, correctly scaled (unlike BF), and very very nice.

-French suffer incredibly due to the lack of ANY sort of 20/25mm AA guns. Even though the French 25mm AAG is the nicest all-round gun in Blitzkrieg, there are NO models for it

-French 25mm ATGs are nearly worthless, 47mm do fairly well though. When a model is released for the Laffly TCC, EW Panzers will be at a severe disadvantage.

-If you want to take 75mms (and you should! Quick Fire is excellent!), they need to be protected and fielded in no less than a 4-gun battery (to take advantage of QF).

-Renault UEs are well worth the 30pts. The ability to give its attached unit +1 ROF (or +2 in the case of HMGs) can easily turn the tide of a battle.

ancientsociety wrote:-If you want to take 75mms (and you should! Quick Fire is excellent!), they need to be protected and fielded in no less than a 4-gun battery (to take advantage of QF).

Depends on what you're fighting. If you're fighting unarmored teams, then yes they're great. If you're fighting mostly armored targets, then they're largely a waste of points due to the poor AT and FP values. In that case it's better to go with the bigger guns because they can actually threaten the targets you're dropping shells on. And they're cheaper, to boot, because of the lack of Quick Fire.

Eumerin wrote:

ancientsociety wrote:-If you want to take 75mms (and you should! Quick Fire is excellent!), they need to be protected and fielded in no less than a 4-gun battery (to take advantage of QF).

Depends on what you're fighting. If you're fighting unarmored teams, then yes they're great. If you're fighting mostly armored targets, then they're largely a waste of points due to the poor AT and FP values. In that case it's better to go with the bigger guns because they can actually threaten the targets you're dropping shells on. And they're cheaper, to boot, because of the lack of Quick Fire.

In higher point battles, I would agree with you. If you're low on extra points though, 75s can easily knock out nearly any EW panzer over open sights.

ancientsociety wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

ancientsociety wrote:-If you want to take 75mms (and you should! Quick Fire is excellent!), they need to be protected and fielded in no less than a 4-gun battery (to take advantage of QF).

Depends on what you're fighting. If you're fighting unarmored teams, then yes they're great. If you're fighting mostly armored targets, then they're largely a waste of points due to the poor AT and FP values. In that case it's better to go with the bigger guns because they can actually threaten the targets you're dropping shells on. And they're cheaper, to boot, because of the lack of Quick Fire.

In higher point battles, I would agree with you. If you're low on extra points though, 75s can easily knock out nearly any EW panzer over open sights.

At lower points it's still very arguable. In my Escadron de Combat list, you can get 4 105mm 1935 guns for just 5 points more than the cost of 2 75mm 1897 guns. They'll have a lower rate of fire, but that won't matter because you'll have enough guns to make up for it (so still the same total number of shots). Their AT will be one point lower, but their FP will be one point higher. And their AT is still quite adequate against just about anything they're likely to come up against. Their only serious problem is the shorter direct fire range on the 105mm guns.

Eumerin wrote:

ancientsociety wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

ancientsociety wrote:-If you want to take 75mms (and you should! Quick Fire is excellent!), they need to be protected and fielded in no less than a 4-gun battery (to take advantage of QF).

Depends on what you're fighting. If you're fighting unarmored teams, then yes they're great. If you're fighting mostly armored targets, then they're largely a waste of points due to the poor AT and FP values. In that case it's better to go with the bigger guns because they can actually threaten the targets you're dropping shells on. And they're cheaper, to boot, because of the lack of Quick Fire.

In higher point battles, I would agree with you. If you're low on extra points though, 75s can easily knock out nearly any EW panzer over open sights.

At lower points it's still very arguable. In my Escadron de Combat list, you can get 4 105mm 1935 guns for just 5 points more than the cost of 2 75mm 1897 guns. They'll have a lower rate of fire, but that won't matter because you'll have enough guns to make up for it (so still the same total number of shots). Their AT will be one point lower, but their FP will be one point higher. And their AT is still quite adequate against just about anything they're likely to come up against. Their only serious problem is the shorter direct fire range on the 105mm guns.

Hmmmm....looking over the list again, you are correct. They aren't priced badly

orkboy232 wrote:Hey all,

I was hanging out at one of the FLGS near my house and discovered Flames of War. Immediately it piqued my interest as I've always been a history buff and enjoy wargaming, so obviously it fits the bill. My issue is that I don't want to fall into the same pitfall I did with my warhammer, that being purchasing models without any kind of plan or idea. I actually want to collect a cohesive and effective force. I've always enjoyed the early war period so I thought that it would be as good a place as any to start. I wanted to do a French armored group, as I had a look at the models on the FoW website and really liked them, and in addition the French tanks far outclassed the German equivalent, which is another bonus for me. In a nutshell I was hoping that I could get some advice on how to go about starting an army (as in what are good units to get, how many points etc etc) before I start making purchases.

Thanks in advance!

The French can be an interesting force to play, though given french military doctrine at the time they do best defensively rather than offensively. This is not to say that they can't do well on offense, but it requires more planning ahead. Your armor is very tough compared to other tanks and in a lot of cases you can take the hits necessary to get into shooting position. Your maneuvering will put your opponent into the position of hoping they can finish you off first (which is tough) or moving out of your fire arc to keep from getting destroyed. Either way your tanks have limited the use of the opponent's tanks. Sometimes that control is all that matters.

I would recommend including some infantry in your force. The only french forces I have seen that do not do exceptionally well on the table top are French armored only forces. The unit size requirements can make it hard to have enough platoons on the table. Once you hit 1500 points you should have a minimum of 6 platoons on the table, 7 is even better. French infantry always dig in on a 3+ so it doesn't matter that they are only trained when digging in on an objective. One of the better units to have are the panhard armored cars. Nothing is funnier than watching an opponent avoid the somuas and end up right in place for an armored car flank attack. The panhards are *not* affected by the one man turret rule and have pretty potent guns on them. Can come as a really nasty surprise for enemy armored opponents. The french can also get some big guns. Use them.

It is very easy to build a balanced list in higher point games of FoW, not so much in smaller games, though. One of your comments is the most important for me: Playing something that no one else is playing. That is why I play the British. In the last midwar league I was the only British player. In our current early war league I am one of 2 british players...

Skriker