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True or false:

GW makes blatantly overpowered Codexes to encourage people to buy them in order to win, with the full intention of FAQing the crap out of them after they've made oodles of money in order to rebalance the game.

Their line of reasoning: "who would buy a meh army? Let's OP that sh*t."

I think they're a regular bunch of sleazy capitalists, and they do this on purpose. Makes perfect business sense. Just temporarily destroys the integrity of the game.


Go.

I feel like its more like "new kid on the block" syndrome. The new stuff needs to feel new and flashy I.E. stronger and faster. Then the new codex comes along and is better, and then the next one...

I have noticed though, that of the 5th edition ones, the xeno codices aren't as powerful as the imperial ones. Still strong but not THAT strong.

I think that you are seeing evil where there is none. GW is a relatively small company and imperfect rules will get through. Compare the amount of playtesting they can resonably do inhouse with the amount that happens after the codex hits and you can see why they release faqs Things come up that they would not have thought of or didn't catch before the codex went to print.

They would make far more money by having an awesome and balanced system than through your "Sleazy capitalist" theory. Companies are run by people, not awsome evil geniuses with an army of infallible robots.

I guess my only problem is that all of the new codexes are all designed around the same competitive builds. Pile all of your troops in cheap transports, get some variation of kick ass heavy support, throw in some new toys, and we can sell a but load of transports in addition to troops.

Grey knights seem to be structured as a combo of fancy. Mechanized marines, and mechanized fancy guard... can't we get truly new?

Belerephon wrote:True or false:

GW makes blatantly overpowered Codexes to encourage people to buy them in order to win, with the full intention of FAQing the crap out of them after they've made oodles of money in order to rebalance the game.

Their line of reasoning: "who would buy a meh army? Let's OP that sh*t."

I think they're a regular bunch of sleazy capitalists, and they do this on purpose. Makes perfect business sense. Just temporarily destroys the integrity of the game.


Go.

Boo hoo wah.

You probably that GK is OP because their 40 point models can take 25 point upgrades to upgrade their 5++ to a 2++ in close combat only

ph34r wrote:

Belerephon wrote:True or false:

GW makes blatantly overpowered Codexes to encourage people to buy them in order to win, with the full intention of FAQing the crap out of them after they've made oodles of money in order to rebalance the game.

Their line of reasoning: "who would buy a meh army? Let's OP that sh*t."

I think they're a regular bunch of sleazy capitalists, and they do this on purpose. Makes perfect business sense. Just temporarily destroys the integrity of the game.


Go.

Boo hoo wah.

You probably that GK is OP because their 40 point models can take 25 point upgrades to upgrade their 5++ to a 2++ in close combat only

Wait really? God d@$%it.

He's being sarcastic. The wargear is called the Nemesis Warding Stave, you can take a grand total of 1 per squad. At 25 points.

GK are an elite army, but still marines. Sure, they can take a bunch of fancy stuff, but at the end of the day, they *mostly* die like normal marines.

I think the nature of Tyranids just makes them hard to balance. The game is so vehicle heavy now that it's difficult to get a balanced army consisting of infantry and MC probably.

Belerephon wrote:

ph34r wrote:

Belerephon wrote:True or false:

GW makes blatantly overpowered Codexes to encourage people to buy them in order to win, with the full intention of FAQing the crap out of them after they've made oodles of money in order to rebalance the game.

Their line of reasoning: "who would buy a meh army? Let's OP that sh*t."

I think they're a regular bunch of sleazy capitalists, and they do this on purpose. Makes perfect business sense. Just temporarily destroys the integrity of the game.


Go.

Boo hoo wah.

You probably that GK is OP because their 40 point models can take 25 point upgrades to upgrade their 5++ to a 2++ in close combat only

Wait really? God d@$%it.

Yeah. It's awful. And technically it's only an upgrade from 4++ to 2++. For 50% of the model's cost.

It doesn't take a tactical genius to figure out that's bad.

sell rock
sell paper for more than rock
sell scissors for more than paper more than rock
sell rock for more than scisors more than paper more than rock
sell paper that cant be cut by scissors
realize its getting obvious and release a new ed.

...
..sell rock...
...and ive been here since 2nd

shhhh... dont wake up the guys from the GK+2A thread, we got bored talking about how it isnt good enough when frazz closed it. Nothing is overpowered at all... dynamite beats rock, paper, and scissors, but still needs +2A to beat antimatter dynamite after all.

You know, I agree, Codex Quality is really going down the drain.

I have my 4th edition Chaos Codex sitting right beside me, nothing wrong with it except a few bent pages.

My 5th edition Chaos Codex is sitting underneath that one, and I have to carefully pick it up in order to NOT have seven pages fall out of the book.

And I've treated both of them the exact same since I've gotten both of them.....

Discuss?

American poster fails to applaud American values. He's making a wild accusation based on what he has read about Grey Knights in forums.

I think OP doesn't really play 40k all that much anyway, and has mistaken it for a competitive ruleset.

Anyone can roll a 1.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Discuss?

American poster fails to applaud American values. He's making a wild accusation based on what he has read about Grey Knights in forums.

I think OP doesn't really play 40k all that much anyway, and has mistaken it for a competitive ruleset.

Anyone can roll a 1.

First of all, American poster does not have to agree with American values.

Second, like it or not this game is played competitively.

Third, there is no denying newer codexes are generally far more powerful than older ones. How often do you see Space Wolves take the top brass these days?

Belerephon wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Discuss?

American poster fails to applaud American values. He's making a wild accusation based on what he has read about Grey Knights in forums.

I think OP doesn't really play 40k all that much anyway, and has mistaken it for a competitive ruleset.

Anyone can roll a 1.

First of all, American poster does not have to agree with American values.

Second, like it or not this game is played competitively.

Third, there is no denying newer codexes are generally far more powerful than older ones. How often do you see Space Wolves take the top brass these days?

First of all, Disagreeing with American Values is actually an American Value.

Second, so is TF2, and they have to cut off half the classes in order to make it work.

Third, Are they more powerful partly because they are newer, people haven't learned to fully adapt to them yet.

From what I can see people moaned about JoTTW with about as much venom and vitriol as GK overall to date.

JoTTW didn't turn out to be so great... but the tears will dry in time.

I have to agree with the op, it does seem like gw are looking for sales more than making a balanced game, i mean if they were necrons codex would have come before gk, and orks wouldnt have been shafted with the whole 5th ed in mind ****.
To say that they are trying to make the game balanced is like saying america arent looking for oil.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Discuss?

American poster fails to applaud American values. He's making a wild accusation based on what he has read about Grey Knights in forums.

I think OP doesn't really play 40k all that much anyway, and has mistaken it for a competitive ruleset.

Anyone can roll a 1.

Poke yer didjerido on that box looking thing next to your pile of crocodile scalps for more stereotypes.

I hope it wasn't this English poster who posts from a computer in the United States you are refering too, Australian residing computer user. You don't exactly applaud Australian values by involving yourself in, um, anything... either btw.

Wild accusation? Just callin it like I see it. 20 fething pages of it plus a different threat that had something along the lines of S6T64WSave2++yattahyattah-it-wants-your-firstborn-for the points cost of a bj... thread before that. Let the munchkins jump on the bandwagon, pull out their symbolic logic and grammar books from middle school to make sure the comma is in the right place at the end of the sentence, and go to work finding how best to wash away the smell of urine from their underarms as they plot their next killer army for all I care. Maybe one day that chick from the fantastic four will learn that I'm the 40k god at a con or something I dunno, it just matters that my grammar is correcter than GWs to get my bonus.

I think the point is amply made in the support of the OP from any of those type of threads or the current "AND means THEN or OR depending on what PAGE I QUOTE" arguement going on now - sorry for the exaggeration but it does get a bit like the stereotype after a while - and yes I can pee in my own armpit... I'm American, right? Americans can reach that far!

It has gone past next-best-codex.. now its next best things we can find to exploit the ambiguous wording in the next best codex.. not good enough to have cheese handed on a platter, now it wants multiple arguement cheese that cannot be defeated due to the "find a counter arguement in the 10,000+ pages of rulebooks or I AM RIGHT" camp.

Everybody calls wound allocation shenanegins, but they still use it because someone first thought 'duh! this rocks! wasn't meant for this at all but look how well my guys live because I have a bolter!"

so yeah.. cheers from this 'American' stick some shrimp on the barbie or something

When you compare Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, and Grey knights (although the vote is still out on that one) to Guard, I'd say they've actually gotten better at making balanced codex. I think it's less a problem with GW as a whole and more because of the different styles of the codex writers. I agree that they're stronger than 4th edition, but that's a difference between editions.

3 out of several spread across 3 editions of rules aint bad I guess. DE and BA and GK may be balanced against other DE, BA, and GK. Good thing they weren't all 3 released in a short span of time as each other, and are competative with each other to the point that people are actually arguing that an extra attack is not worth 5 points, while the rest of the 'old' codex kind of agree with the OP.(except SW but nobody can use that as a reference, the guy who brought dynamite in Rock/Paper/Scissors doesn't count... and that was so long ago, they must have assimilated by now, right?)

I never said they were all balanced, I just said they're getting better at it

And I consider C:SM balanced (barring TH/SS Terminators, which need to be 60 pts a model)

I also agree with the OP. I just used more of a polite tone in how much I want to spout out "Litanies of Hate" against said company.

I am also spending time in learning other types of games as well, which means less money to Games Workshop.

I spend one to five hundred dollars per month on these plastic models, and slowly myself and others are leaving 40k or at least not buying as much as we used too.

GW will continue this business model until they have exhausted their clientele, then will do a general reset, nullifying what works well in 5th ed when they create 6th ed.

Then we will start all over again. But this time it should not be as effective as before (IMHO) due to the fact that there are other companies that have matured enough to cause concern with market share erosion against GW.

If you do not like what is going on with this business model, vote with your pocket book, otherwise your voice is not going to be heard, based on the years of people complaining about this or that against GW.

I am voting with my pocket book.

The GW Stores have weekly and monthly Quota's that they have to meet, or with justification on why they did not. Vote with your pocket book. Instead of buying what you want, buy what you need and scratch built the rest and buy somewhere else if you can.

Play more casual games with your friends and not go to their "official tournaments". Take your money and your time and invest in something else and/or go some place else than a GW store if you want to have something to say about their business model.

Money Always Talks.

I honestly don't think GW has a really glaring problem with balance each release. A lot of it comes from a rumor going out ahead of time, which leads to people playing Chicken Little and freaking out. When the new army hits the table, people don't really know how to fight it yet, so they probably get beaten a few times. I will say that codices are getting a bit wackier these days, but a lot of that seems to be Mat Ward's fault.

Let's take the Grey Knights for example. They've got some really powerful units with really good abilities for generally appropriate points. They still die to my battlecannons all the same. Blood Angels are faster, but their rhinos pop just as easily as anyone else's, and the Marines inside are still just Marines, mostly.

GW isn't making horribly unbalanced codices. They usually buff a unit or two to sell more model kits, but there's no codex that's blatantly head and shoulders over another.

Ah yes, guitardian moaning here because he lost in YMDC

Hint: an extra attack for 5 points whereby you lose either I6 or a 4++ in combat ISNT worth it. Or 10 points on a 30 point PAGK it isnt worth it, when you could just buy a banner for 25 points for the unit which does the same....

No, this isnt a new model, and is more a symptom of "unexpected" meaning "holy crap that seems good!" for most people.

There have only been 2 overpowered codexes in 5th edition: SW and IG. IG because of 3 units (mainly) and SW due to cheap heavy weapons and CA troops with 3A each.

However people have developed coping strategies. the good news is the more recent codexes, EVEN tyranids, CAN all compete (as the 120 player uk indy gt showed) at the highest levels.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ah yes, guitardian moaning here because he lost in YMDC

Hint: an extra attack for 5 points whereby you lose either I6 or a 4++ in combat ISNT worth it. Or 10 points on a 30 point PAGK it isnt worth it, when you could just buy a banner for 25 points for the unit which does the same....

No, this isnt a new model, and is more a symptom of "unexpected" meaning "holy crap that seems good!" for most people.

There have only been 2 overpowered codexes in 5th edition: SW and IG. IG because of 3 units (mainly) and SW due to cheap heavy weapons and CA troops with 3A each.

However people have developed coping strategies. the good news is the more recent codexes, EVEN tyranids, CAN all compete (as the 120 player uk indy gt showed) at the highest levels.

Word, although I'd like to add that I think it's silly that people complain about older armies being beaten by a new Codex. Gasp, a Codex written with the current rules in mind beat a Codex that wasn´t? No way!

Belerephon wrote:

Third, there is no denying newer codexes are generally far more powerful than older ones. How often do you see Space Wolves take the top brass these days?

A lot. But then again, we also see SW being run a lot in tournies. If SW make up a greater % of the armies in tournaments these days, then it goes without saying that if all the codexes are balanced then they should take out a greater % of the top brass compared with other armies...

Although the power of a codex can affect how well an army does, I think that the skill of the player is a more influential factor.

How many codexes back are SW now? I seem to recall IG, DE, BA coming after them, and possibly Tyranid. Doesn't that go against the idea that the newest codex is the most powerful?

GK does a lot of things we've never seen before. That's scary because we have no yardstick to measure its effectiveness until we play against it. That shock value has happened with every codex release I've seen, and I'm glad of it. GW should keep innovating and releasing new and different things.

Skill is definitely the greatest part. Hell, Dash can win with necrons!

At the recent Indy GT in the UK IG had 18 of 120 entrants, and came 1st and 3rd - but ALSO came spread throughout the field. There were so many 6 hydra / 3 vendetta / chimera spam lists you woudlnt believe, but not all came in the top section.

The truth is that 5th edition as a game is FAR more balanced, inherently, than any other. The use of objective and KP games means that it is almost always possible to win / draw every game.

Belerephon wrote:True or false:

GW makes blatantly overpowered Codexes to encourage people to buy them in order to win, with the full intention of FAQing the crap out of them after they've made oodles of money in order to rebalance the game.

ROFLMAO

How long have you been gaming?
Because seriously this really is the normal course of games. Try playing star Wars minis or Heroclix with just the early set figures against someone using a build using recent figures. In Dungeon & Dragons 4th Ed. the later Player Handbooks had much stronger character builds than the first one.

It's not Power Creep, it's Marketing.
eg. Car manufacturers always try to make their new cars better than their old ones.
No amount of complaining will change this as it happens across all industry.

At least with Games Workshop the older Codex's can still be used, and be used with success.

Belerephon wrote:True or false:

GW makes blatantly overpowered Codexes to encourage people to buy them in order to win, with the full intention of FAQing the crap out of them after they've made oodles of money in order to rebalance the game.

Their line of reasoning: "who would buy a meh army? Let's OP that sh*t."

I think they're a regular bunch of sleazy capitalists, and they do this on purpose. Makes perfect business sense. Just temporarily destroys the integrity of the game.


Go.

L. Wrex

Trickstick wrote:I think that you are seeing evil where there is none. GW is a relatively small company and imperfect rules will get through. Compare the amount of playtesting they can resonably do inhouse with the amount that happens after the codex hits and you can see why they release faqs Things come up that they would not have thought of or didn't catch before the codex went to print.

What makes me laugh is that placs like these fine forums pick out broken rules that need to be FAQ'd within hours of the codex being leaked, let alone released. You woudl think that, as they spend months writing them, they woudl be able to iron that sort fo thgin out before it hits the shelves and save themselves a lot of grief.