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So, had a game and some things came up via the errata/FAQ...

1. Storm Banner: do warpstone weapons that don't use BS (catapults, mortars, etc.) suffer no ill effects from this banner since they count as magical?

2. Since the last two sentences are removed from slaves' expendable rule, there's really no randomization for shooting at enemies they're in combat with?! (That seems awfully powerful).

3. How do random-movement charges work (HPA, e.g.) if the enemy unit is already engaged in combat but the side that the HPA is in the arc of is completely covered? I.e. I can see the flank of an enemy unit (that's fully engaged to its own front), and the HPA rolls enough to contact it. Do we slide my unit that's engaged to the enemy's front over enough to accommodate a clipping of the HPA?

1. The Storm Banner has been re-FAQed. Any Non BS using weapon has to 4+ to fire. That includes mortars / catapults.

2. That is correct.

3. Not 100% sure on this one. >_<

3) If you cannot make contact in the arc you are in, no charge can occur

Id have to disagree with Nosferatu. You just pivot the model and roll the dice. By that logic, if the dice roll is high enough, the angle that you pivot the model could very well move it into the side if you are in front. Also, it's not a charge move, the model is just randomly moving, if it contacts you, it counts as charging.

While that's true, I'm hard pressed to think of a way that an HPA could be facing the front of a unit, but be pivoted in such a way to hit the side with a straight line.

With a deep (bus) formation you can easily clip it's back end.

What Hoverboy said. And with 8th edition, units with deep formations are seen all too often on the battlefield.

Thanks all!

so...

My Warpfire Throwers have to roll a 4+ before it fires now then?

well that sucks ¬¬

Only when the Stormbanner is active.

Darn...

That sucks ass to be honest ¬¬....

I have never once run a Stormbanner in my lists.

i assume this is what you mean about the HPA, where the majority of the model is in the front rank but is actually gonna clip the side. Id give you the flank as it is random movement.

Orkimedes wrote:Id have to disagree with Nosferatu. You just pivot the model and roll the dice. By that logic, if the dice roll is high enough, the angle that you pivot the model could very well move it into the side if you are in front. Also, it's not a charge move, the model is just randomly moving, if it contacts you, it counts as charging.

edit: rereading the rules its states that random movements follow all of the same restrictions for charging if it comes into base contact. So if your in the front arc and cant fit its a failed charge (failed as in you might need to stop an inch shy) and not a flank.

-OR-

if you really want to bring on the cheddar at a tourney like ard boyz, tell your opponent its a failed charge and as such you only move the highest amount shown on the 3d6 (i mean it is following all the restrictions of charging).

I'd have to agree with that.

@Bloodhorror: it may not be awesome, but it's certainly fair. I don't fully understand how anyone could ever assume that Skaven shooting and war machines are somehow exempt from the Stormbanner anyway, since it shuts down shooting and war machines.

For Random Movement:

Except that "all the normal rules for charging" includes maximizing models that charge a unit, and if there's 2 units charging, you make room for both.

Hence the confusing of the rule.

Storm Banner:

So I guess breath weapons are affected, too, eh?

I didnt think TWO units were charging - one unit had already charged, made contact and was locked in combat, and THEN the random movement guy tried to move in.

Certainly that is how your initial post reads - you are charging a HPA into an ongoing combat, or trying to at least.

Yes, Breath Weapons are weapons that fire without a BS.

You're right about the original post, I was just wondering if they would be treated as charging in the same turn per the "normal rules for charging". But I suppose the one is already in combat (a la a second-turn charge at a unit already full engaged to the front--which couldn't even be declared I suppose).

Magus Nebula wrote:i assume this is what you mean about the HPA, where the majority of the model is in the front rank but is actually gonna clip the side. Id give you the flank as it is random movement.

Actually, given that exact setup in the diagram, the HPA can acheive BTB contact in the front.

Corner-to-corner contact counts, and the 1" between friendly units rule is waived in close combat.

arbogast wrote:So, had a game and some things came up via the errata/FAQ...

1. Storm Banner: do warpstone weapons that don't use BS (catapults, mortars, etc.) suffer no ill effects from this banner since they count as magical?

2. Since the last two sentences are removed from slaves' expendable rule, there's really no randomization for shooting at enemies they're in combat with?! (That seems awfully powerful).

3. How do random-movement charges work (HPA, e.g.) if the enemy unit is already engaged in combat but the side that the HPA is in the arc of is completely covered? I.e. I can see the flank of an enemy unit (that's fully engaged to its own front), and the HPA rolls enough to contact it. Do we slide my unit that's engaged to the enemy's front over enough to accommodate a clipping of the HPA?

1. Most people got it, even your own weapons eat the 4+ to shoot.

2. This was a needed change. People were abusing the HELL out of this rule, most people read it and think OMG SLAVES GOT BUFFED!!!! When in fact it was a RaW fix. Players would intentionally get their slaves into combat with a dragon or something, then fire a warpfire thrower or warp lightning cannon into the slave block. RaW you randomized all those hits, so the dragon would take 6-7 shots from a cannon/WFT instead of 1 like it should have.

Vulcan wrote:
Actually, given that exact setup in the diagram, the HPA can acheive BTB contact in the front.

Corner-to-corner contact counts, and the 1" between friendly units rule is waived in close combat.

can the HPA wheel backwards to lose the door?

Bloodhorror wrote:Darn...

That sucks ass to be honest ¬¬....

You whiny cheesemongering rat, how do you think the rest of us feel? The stormbanner is one of the top 3 or 4 most overpowered items in the game and now you're complaining that it has a downside. Grow up.

Yeah stormbanner is still INCREDIBLY strong.

If they have more shooting then you, pop it. If the dont, then dont pop it...

@Magus: not sure if I understand ya' there, but if this question pertains to this beast specifically, the A-bomb's got Random Movement and can't manuever. If it's a general question...I dunno.

@Malleus: Whoa there big shooter.

As to the original topic: so it's agreed that Random Movement can only lead you into the arc you started in, as per a normal charge?

I still have to disagree. I think that the model is just moving. If it conctacts an enemy, regardless of which side it is, it counts as charging. It's still not a declared charge so I don't think what arc you're in, or started in, matters. In the example, it starts in the front, then while randomly moving, it's in the side. There's is still not a declared charge. When it's in the side arc, it hits the side and counts as charging. That's the way I see it, anyways.

Also, outside of rolling triples, (which stops the HPA in its tracks) There's no way I would be convinced that my model cannot make it to CC. I'd even settle for a front (corner to corner) but not making it to CC seems just out of the question.

My two coppers...

I don't think anyone's going to argue that it can't get into B2B since Vulcan mentioned the corner-to-corner thing.

For the record, bringing evidence to the table to support your opinion will help; this is YMTC, after all. We leave the RaI and our souls at home.

Relevant stuff from BRB (emphasis mine):

"A charging unit's position when the charge is declared determines whether it charges into the front, flank, or rear..." p. 21

"Models with Random Movement cannot declare charges" p.74

"...it counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges..." p.74

So...models with this rule skip the subphase where we see which side they charge into, and the "resolution" of a charge involves dice and measuring and moving and so on? I think I got it here, but I'll put it forth tentatively.

tbo, im on the fence about it, i could see it go either way

Could you...maybe...say why? I'd really actually like to walk away from this with a definitive answer; Mr. Shambles and I are pretty close.

Warpsolution wrote:I don't think anyone's going to argue that it can't get into B2B since Vulcan mentioned the corner-to-corner thing.

- Right, but extend unit B (as if it were a horde) and now that the B2B option is gone, what happens?

- Let's assume it's a failed charge; how far would the HPA move?
a. Does it run into the friendly unit and cause hits b/c it was "redirected" from its intended course due to following the normal rules for charging? (Lame.)
b. Does it move the highest of its 3 dice (in conflict with 'failed charges' in the rules b/c those only cover 2D6 charges). (Possible but breaks too many tacit rules.)

- Instead let's assume it continues on in its intended direction and there was no unit already engaged with the enemy
a. Does it move its full distance into the flank? If not, then one cannot change this interpretation simply b/c of the addition of an enemy unit. (This would lend strength to the failed charge argument above).

I personally think it should continue on its intended path in either case b/c it breaks the least amount of rules and falls in-line with declaring a direction and the thing just moving in that direction until it hits something. Incidentally, since the HPA can come w/in 1" of a friendly unit (not normally allowed per the random movement rules, allowed b/c the HPA can smack into friendlies), it can squeeze by a friendly unit in order to hit the enemy instead.

Eh, my thoughts. /

Um...okay. I think I understand. So, to respond:

- I assume you mean that the "corner-to-corner" option is gone. In that case, you just smack into the unit. Probably in the front, since it's front is huge, but not necessarily, if I'm correct in my theory above.

- A model with Random Movement only resolves a charge per the normal rules if it's movement would bring it into base-to-base with another unit. So it never "fails a charge".

- I'll guess that this point is separate from the above, since having too little movement would never lead to having enough.
In which case, I think you're right: take a look at what I posted there. Models with Random Movement don't declare charges. You determine where you're charging when you declare one. So they just hit where they hit.

So, as far as I can see, it breaks zero rules, as in, it follows the rules set up in Random Movement.
Not sure about the 1" margin-thing, though. I mean, you roll up Random Movement, you measure, you move the model to that spot. You don't slowly slide each model to that position, staying 1" or more away from units along the way; you just need to maintain that margin where you end up (which an A-bomb does, it just also smacks that unit for d6 impact hits).

arbogast wrote:So, had a game and some things came up via the errata/FAQ...


3. How do random-movement charges work (HPA, e.g.) if the enemy unit is already engaged in combat but the side that the HPA is in the arc of is completely covered? I.e. I can see the flank of an enemy unit (that's fully engaged to its own front), and the HPA rolls enough to contact it. Do we slide my unit that's engaged to the enemy's front over enough to accommodate a clipping of the HPA?

ok this is the OP's origional question and info given...
by the rules the HPA moves in a strait line in the direction chossen up to the distance of the dice rolled. . The HPA move is messued in the direction indicated by the OP. 'IF' the HPA contacts the Enemy unit then it charges, and must complete a charge to the same arc . ie, if the enemy has his front to the HPA at the time the movement is meassured, then the HPA must complete the charge to the front arc. if this is the case the one inch distance rule for movement is waived. while the op completes the move.
Now if the OP cant complete the charge into the front arc because the other unit (assumed to have been charged or had charged in other turns) engadging the enemy has totally blocked the arc to the point of overlapping it on both ends then there is no charge becase its imposible to complete a charge into that arc.
The rule on page 16 covers this fairly well 'a unit cannot declare an impossible charge.' so in my estimation the HPA moves forward the distance indicated in the direction indicated untill it comes within one inch of the enemy unit and stops. (no for those of you wondering the HPA will not do impact hits as it doesnt hit hte enemy unit at all. )

Arbogast, your last sentace is false. a HPA cannot ignore the one inch rule. if the HPA comes into contact with a fiendly unit it will deal inpact hits and then WITHDRAW, there isnt anythig in the rule about ignoring the one inch rule as it goes by, it must still adhear to it.