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Could a normal guardsman witherstand the recoil of a bolter?
And if they do why don't kasrkins get bolters instead of hellguns??

Well I suppose it can, there are a lot of Guardsman carrying bolter so the answer is yes. But I doubt that they can fire full auto like SM.

There are different patterns of Boltguns: some are "normal-sized", others are "astartes sized"

In 40k, they share the same stats.

In the Roque Trader RPG and Deathwatch RPG (by fantasyflightgames), Boltguns weight in at 7 kg, whila astartes bolters pack a massive 18 kg, and have a significantly higher damage-output and bigger magazine.


So... yes



And Karskin...they would be too similar to the sisters of battles... hellguns however are superior to boltguns against any toughness-level with 3+ or 4+ saves...

In 40k fluff there are different size weapons for Space Marines and for normal humans. A human can safely operate a bolter built for humans. Trying to use a SM bolter would be hard.

In the series of books about the blood angels, there is two of them, I can't remember what they are called though, two PDF guards are using bolt pistols like bolt guns, because they can't handle the recoil on the bolters

jelisi wrote:Could a normal guardsman witherstand the recoil of a bolter?
And if they do why don't kasrkins get bolters instead of hellguns??

There are boltguns designed for unaugmented humans, just as there are boltguns designed for augmented humans, for unaugmented marines, and for augmented marines.

As for why they don't use boltguns? Because boltguns are inefficient and expensive, and because hellguns are frequently better than boltguns.


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winnertakesall wrote:In the series of books about the blood angels, there is two of them, I can't remember what they are called though, two PDF guards are using bolt pistols like bolt guns, because they can't handle the recoil on the bolters

Yeah, that's a dumb and inaccurate piece of fluff. Unless they were using an Astartes weapon, there's no reason they should have had any problem with the gun's recoil.


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ph34r wrote:In 40k fluff there are different size weapons for Space Marines and for normal humans. A human can safely operate a bolter built for humans. Trying to use a SM bolter would be hard.

For that matter, a space marine would find it hard to use a boltgun made for humans without heavily modifying it (as noted in Deathwatch).

And do initiates use the boltguns for normal humans or the astartes boltguns?

Initiates, as in?

Officers in the Guard and, of course, Commissars are armed with bolt pistols as standard (usually, at any rate).

There are many references to Astartes Bolters being almost too big and heavy for a human to pick up, let alone wield in combat..

Melissia wrote:Initiates, as in?

The space marine initiates (scouts)

I would assume they use a variant of the Godwyn pattern optimized for use by unaugmented Marines.

(for reference for the previous post about marines not being able to use human weapons without modifications, the modifications Marines would have to do to use human weaponry effectively would be removing the trigger guard, extending the trigger itself, wrapping the handle so that it's big enough to hold comfortably, etc)

Actually, I would think that scout marines would use standard Astartes bolters. Don't marines have all(or most) of their augmentations by the time they reach scout status(looking at table top stats)?

Also, the recoil on bolt weapons should be pretty low, considering that the bulk(no pun intended) of the round's acceleration is done after it leaves the barrrel.

Finally, I was under the impression that hellguns are slightly less powerful than boltguns.

Power armor enhances a Marine's strength just like it enhances human strength. Therefor power armor is part of the augmentation-- also, power armor is huge, and so you'd need a modified handle, grip, trigger, etc to be able to use weapons while in it generally (at the very elast, no trigger guard).


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Ronin-Sage wrote:Also, the recoil on bolt weapons should be pretty low, considering that the bulk(no pun intended) of the round's acceleration is done after it leaves the barrrel.

That's certainly not true. Boltguns are just as lethal at point blank as they are at long range in all sources.

I've actually read that they're less potent at extremely close range. Not that Lexicanum is flawlessly accurate, but it says as much in their bolt weapon article, and it makes sense to me.

Ronin-Sage wrote:I've actually read that they're less potent at extremely close range. Not that Lexicanum is flawlessly accurate, but it says as much in their bolt weapon article, and it makes sense to me.

You have no idea what you've just unleashed...
The Boltgun argument.
This is my take.
Boltguns are similar to gyrojet weapons as they fire a miniture rocket which accelerates after leaving the barrel. However, the bolt shell has a standard powder (or something) charge which lets the bolt reach high speed before it leaves the gun. The rocket simply lets it keep going for a bit longer giving the gun a higher range.
As for the OP:
Guardsmen and normal humans use smaller versions of astartes weaponry when it comes to side arms. They have the same or very little difference in power.

That makes sense, and I suppose any further debate would be off-topic, anyway.

So what type of boltgun do Sisters of Battle use? They are still human but wear power armor...


EDIT: GO GO Grammer FAIL

Where power armor? There power armor!


Oh...you mean wear power armor.

They use the standard bolter that Marines utilize. Their power armor has all kinds of strength enhancing stuff built in.

Technically, Sisters use a Godwyn-Deaz pattern bolter, which is a modified Godwyn pattern bolter with a longer barrel and other enhancements designed to allow for use in human hands (especially power armored humans).

By the way, power armor isn't, and has never been unique to Marines... humans wear it, eldar wear it, orks wear it, tau wear it...

40K bolters are dual-propellant weapons. The first, like a traditional bullet, launches the mass-reactive shell from the weapon, at which point the rocket charge kicks in and gives it a further boost. This is why you can shoot someone point blank with a bolter, or take single shots at long-ranged targets.

According to the Munitorum Manuel, Guardsmen are advised to not fire a bolter on full auto and use instead the 3 round burst and single shot settings to avoid injury.


as to why Guardsmen arn't issued Bolters,

Bolters require a solid slug ammo.


lasguns can be recharged in the field, either by Generator, Lemun Russ engine, or just by sitting it in a fire or out in the sun.


having a less powerful weapon is worth the savings in supplyline maintainace.

all that room ammo would have taken up can be used for food, medical supplies, more soldiers....

jelisi wrote:

Melissia wrote:Initiates, as in?

The space marine initiates (scouts)

Scouts are neophytes

Initiates are regular space marines.

Grey Templar wrote:According to the Munitorum Manuel, Guardsmen are advised to not fire a bolter on full auto and use instead the 3 round burst and single shot settings to avoid injury.


as to why Guardsmen arn't issued Bolters,

Bolters require a solid slug ammo.r

Err, not really.

According to Dark Heresy, bolter shells are 320 times the price of a single stub round, shotgun shell, etc. A laspack costs about the same as a boltgun, but is infinitely rechargable as long as it isn't abused for faster charging.

Bolter shells aren't really solid slugs. They're a multistage combination of traditional bullet and rocket, combined with a mass reactive warhead which explodes a fraction of a second after penetrating for maximum damage. They are ludicrously expensive to make, and hell, dark heresy probably toned down the price of bolter shells to make boltguns an actual usable option (even as it is now you often have to choose between buying boltgun ammunition or eating for a week).

if you can glue it to a guardsmen, then sure, why not!

Melissia wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:According to the Munitorum Manuel, Guardsmen are advised to not fire a bolter on full auto and use instead the 3 round burst and single shot settings to avoid injury.


as to why Guardsmen arn't issued Bolters,

Bolters require a solid slug ammo.r

Err, not really.

According to Dark Heresy, bolter shells are 320 times the price of a single stub round, shotgun shell, etc. A laspack costs about the same as a boltgun, but is infinitely rechargable as long as it isn't abused for faster charging.

Bolter shells aren't really solid slugs. They're a multistage combination of traditional bullet and rocket, combined with a mass reactive warhead which explodes a fraction of a second after penetrating for maximum damage. They are ludicrously expensive to make, and hell, dark heresy probably toned down the price of bolter shells to make boltguns an actual usable option (even as it is now you often have to choose between buying boltgun ammunition or eating for a week).

it still takes up space and can't be reused so it requires a constant supply line to be maintained and takes up lots of space. whereas with Laspacks you give a Guardsmen 6 laspacks and he should be set for the rest of his career(average=less then 2 hours in the trenches )

that was my point, i know bolts are actually miny missiles.

I know, and I commented on their cost by the way.

A couple things...

I've noticed people drawing a comparison between humans and marines. They're both human, one has just been heavily augmented and trained.

I also noted someone stating that power armor gave humans the strength boosts they require to operate heavy weapons. In fact it's actually a combination of a long and painful series of organ implant and gene mutation surgeries that give them they're above normal aspect.

Scouts probably use the same type of boltgun as a space marine. The power armor does improve strength. But that would go so far as allowing them to operate a heavy bolter or lascannon more so then just a bolter.

gpfunk wrote:A couple things...

I've noticed people drawing a comparison between humans and marines. They're both human, one has just been heavily augmented and trained.

I also noted someone stating that power armor gave humans the strength boosts they require to operate heavy weapons. In fact it's actually a combination of a long and painful series of organ implant and gene mutation surgeries that give them they're above normal aspect.

Pretty sure people in this thread know what goes into making a Space Marine.

However, power armour is what gives Marines their superior strength. While a Marine after his augmetic work is done is very strong, they're still human musculature. It has limits. A Marine still relies on the increased strength power armour grants them to move freely when using things like heavy weaponry. In fact, most of the augmetic work is things other than strength enhancing. being able to drop themselves into suspended animation, learn from eating, corrosive saliva, waxy sweat, aqualung, etc.

At which point does a human stop being human?

Answer: When their DNA is no longer a match to that of Homo Sapiens

Marines are no longer human, although the host organism for the geneseed was.