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ph34r wrote:In 40k fluff there are different size weapons for Space Marines and for normal humans. A human can safely operate a bolter built for humans. Trying to use a SM bolter would be hard.

But multi-lasors are one size fits all!

...eh? eh?...

I'll go to my room for the Goto joke.

boltguns shouldn't have any recoil, or at least not enough to be a problem for a basic human, due to the fluff dragging on about it and how it works, being basically a more portable recoiless rifle.

which of course is contradicted by pictures, black library and everything else unreliable.

the real issue is weight of both weapon and ammo, even a lightweight version would weigh a ton with the ammo capacity GW claims each boltguns magazine has of .75cal shells

gpfunk wrote:I've noticed people drawing a comparison between humans and marines. They're both human

No, Marines are no longer human. They are genetically modified into a different race-- "Homo Sapiens Astartes" if you will, as opposed to "Homo Sapiens Sapiens".

Stella Cadente wrote:boltguns shouldn't have any recoil, or at least not enough to be a problem for a basic human, due to the fluff dragging on about it and how it works, being basically a more portable recoiless rifle.

which of course is contradicted by pictures, black library and everything else unreliable.

the real issue is weight of both weapon and ammo, even a lightweight version would weigh a ton with the ammo capacity GW claims each boltguns magazine has of .75cal shells

Bolters have recoil and have NEVER been recoiless, or caseless.


the Bolt shell is 2 stage.

1st is the explosive stage where it is propelled from the barrel by an explosive charge in the same way a normal bullet is. this is the powerful recoil humans can't handel well.

once it leaves the barrel the 2nd stage activates.

a small rocket inside the round ignites, propelling the bolt even faster.

the casing, which held the round and the initial charge, is ejected from either side of the gun depending on which way the marine is holding his gun(ejector ports are on both sides)

Actually it's only the basic Godwyn pattern that has so powerful that humans can't handle it well. Other patterns have built in devices to reduce recoil, as they're designed for humans and all that. But let's not get too far off topic.

Grey Templar wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:boltguns shouldn't have any recoil, or at least not enough to be a problem for a basic human, due to the fluff dragging on about it and how it works, being basically a more portable recoiless rifle.

which of course is contradicted by pictures, black library and everything else unreliable.

the real issue is weight of both weapon and ammo, even a lightweight version would weigh a ton with the ammo capacity GW claims each boltguns magazine has of .75cal shells

Bolters have recoil and have NEVER been recoiless, or caseless.


the Bolt shell is 2 stage.

1st is the explosive stage where it is propelled from the barrel by an explosive charge in the same way a normal bullet is. this is the powerful recoil humans can't handel well.

once it leaves the barrel the 2nd stage activates.

a small rocket inside the round ignites, propelling the bolt even faster.

the casing, which held the round and the initial charge, is ejected from either side of the gun depending on which way the marine is holding his gun(ejector ports are on both sides)

the case is not ejected (unless you believe the stupid artwork GW does and slowed games like DOW or any of the rubbish BL writes), its all 1 piece, boltgun rounds are self propelled and have an integrated solid propellant like a rocket, there is only a tiny amount of conventional charge being utilized to get the round out the barrel before the rocket part kicks in and propels it away, that would result in nowhere near enough recoil to make a basic human being struggle to fire the weapon as it would be no more recoil than a standard rifle, just like a recoiless rifle (which despite its name still has recoil) or just like the actual pistol the yanks developed

Stella Cadente wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:boltguns shouldn't have any recoil, or at least not enough to be a problem for a basic human, due to the fluff dragging on about it and how it works, being basically a more portable recoiless rifle.

which of course is contradicted by pictures, black library and everything else unreliable.

the real issue is weight of both weapon and ammo, even a lightweight version would weigh a ton with the ammo capacity GW claims each boltguns magazine has of .75cal shells

Bolters have recoil and have NEVER been recoiless, or caseless.


the Bolt shell is 2 stage.

1st is the explosive stage where it is propelled from the barrel by an explosive charge in the same way a normal bullet is. this is the powerful recoil humans can't handel well.

once it leaves the barrel the 2nd stage activates.

a small rocket inside the round ignites, propelling the bolt even faster.

the casing, which held the round and the initial charge, is ejected from either side of the gun depending on which way the marine is holding his gun(ejector ports are on both sides)

the case is not ejected (unless you believe the stupid artwork GW does and slowed games like DOW or any of the rubbish BL writes), its all 1 piece, boltgun rounds are self propelled and have an integrated solid propellant like a rocket, there is only a tiny amount of conventional charge being utilized to get the round out the barrel before the rocket part kicks in and propels it away, that would result in nowhere near enough recoil to make a basic human being struggle to fire the weapon as it would be no more recoil than a standard rifle, just like a recoiless rifle (which despite its name still has recoil) or just like the actual pistol the yanks developed

you do realize that GW says what a bolter does.

and they say it has a casing that is ejected due to being 2 stage.


lexicanum agrees

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bolt_weapon

note: less recoil compared to equivilant caliber rounds does NOT mean it has little to no recoil. it still kicks like a mule. probably equivilant to a .50 cal weapon.

Grey Templar wrote:you do realize that GW says what a bolter does.

yes, thats where I got my info from, from stuff they have written, not BL, not Pics, but just there fluff, if there are 2 versions of it, well its GW they are thick as dog muck

Grey Templar wrote:lexicanum agrees
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bolt_weapon

so fans agree, lexicanium does about as much good proving anything from GW as proving red is yellow

prove to me they are caseless and have no recoil


the artwork AND models say they have casings and the fluff says they have quite a kick.

Not really a guardsmen but similar in size and strength,

the fire warrior in the ps2 fire warrior game can operate Space Marine bolters


Also Gunnery Saergent Harker can hold a heavy bolter by himself

Bolter shells sure as hell aren't caseless. Spent bolt shell casings are a well known good luck charm, especially if they're astartes shell casings.

for the bolter arguement. each bolt is a .70 caliber 2 stage rocket. they intial powder charge to launch the bolt would be massive. Most .50 caliber rounds break a persons shoulder if fired free handed. Each bolt would way about as much as a handful of .50 cal rounds...so alot. they weight of the material alone in a bolter to hold it together is astronomical. Now power armor. true SM are augmented, but that is organs and solidified ribcage, not layers of armor filled with servos and false nerve bundles to move with the wearer without strain. that alone would add alot of strength and toughness to anyone wearing it. and PresidentOfAsia...have you seen the pure muscle scale of Harker...hes as large as a marine himself.

i belive that Harker has added some suspensors onto his HB. or he's just that awsome


Sisters can fire Bolters on full auto mostly due to their PA's systems. Godwyn bolters are smaller and more compact then Astartes bolters, but they are still wrist snappers.


Guardsmen, who would only ever encounter human sized bolters in normal circumstances, are told not to operate bolters on the full auto setting. there must be a reason.

Err, Godwyn bolters ARE astartes bolters.

And actually, I think Godwyn-Deaz boltguns are bigger than the Astartes version, with more built in recoil absorbing features to account for the size. Certainly, Sororitas' Godwyn-Deaz bolters are long enough to look like assault rifles, while the Godwyn bolters on Astartes are short enough to look like carbines or even SMGs.

Stella Cadente wrote:[the case is not ejected (unless you believe the stupid artwork GW does and slowed games like DOW or any of the rubbish BL writes)

So you're essentially saying "if you ignore everything except for fluff pieces from a Codex or rulebook, I might be right?" Unfortunately, even when you ignore all those sources, you're still wrong. Codex: Space Marines, page 22, Honor Badges, The Marksman's Honour-- "Marksman's Honour badges are believed to have been forged by encasing in gold bolter shell cases fired in battle by Roboute Guilliman himself."

Melissia wrote:Err, Godwyn bolters ARE astartes bolters.

And actually, I think Godwyn-Deaz boltguns are bigger than the Astartes version, with more built in recoil absorbing features to account for the size. Certainly, Sororitas' Godwyn-Deaz bolters are long enough to look like assault rifles, while the Godwyn bolters on Astartes are short enough to look like carbines or even SMGs.

I thought Godwyn was the Sister's pattern.

so it's Godwyn-Deaz huh?


the size difference could be because of the age of the models and the poor sculpts.

the WH codex illustration on the page with the Faith powers shows a realativly small bolter compared to the sister holding it.

Could be the reason IG are told not to fire on full auto why the army wanted burst only on the standared m16a2 perceived waste of ammo.

that too, but guardsmen are already warned not to waste ammo(on pain of death) and the only guys using a bolter would be Officers in a realistic situation.

it's most likely for their protection.

I always imagine the people shooting the Tyrannosaur .557 round whenever I think of a guardsmen with a Bolter.

Wait, now there's a debate about whether bolters use caseless ammunition?

Artwork and even associated pieces of fluff will adhere to the rule of cool, which in this case means lots o' shell casings being ejected as some marine fires into hordes of approaching enemies. The is typical, but there are a few examples of bolters being fired without casing ejections.

AFAIK, the 'bolt' is a single unit, which itself contains the propellant. There is no outer casing, because there is no need. You could still argue that ejection ports are needed the case of jams or venting or something, though.

I think a decent example of bolters being fired is in FoK mod for DoW(which basically has a bit of a 'blast' get initial velocity on the round, then a small puff as the rocket seems to fire...of course, this is my interpretation of the fx).

Ronin-Sage wrote:Wait, now there's a debate about whether bolters use caseless ammunition?

Artwork and even associated pieces of fluff will adhere to the rule of cool, which in this case means lots o' shell casings being ejected as some marine fires into hordes of approaching enemies. The is typical, but there are a few examples of bolters being fired without casing ejections.

AFAIK, the 'bolt' is a single unit, which itself contains the propellant. There is no outer casing, because there is no need. You could still argue that ejection ports are needed the case of jams or venting or something, though.

thats what I would get from all the proper fluff stuff I remember reading these past 13 or so years, not the rule of cool fluff artwork and BL show, or the crap 1 codex written by an idiot shows

all GW material says they use casings.

you really can't argue with it.



the Bolt is in a casing.

the casing contains the initial charge which propells the bolt to lethel velocity.

the bolt itself contains the rocket charge which ignites after leaving the barrel.

the casing is ejected after firing.

If you watch the ultramarine film there is a great scene of a bolter being fired and the camera following the bullet.
And yes it is self proppeled after leaving the barrel.

we all know that.

its the casings people are all on about(which are also very obvious in the movie)

Grey Templar wrote:the size difference could be because of the age of the models and the poor sculpts.

This is true, they ARE second edition models.

Grey Templar wrote:all GW material says they use casings.

Actually, it doesn't.

Both the 2nd ed Wargear book and the 3rd ed BBB(and the 3rd ed SM Codex, IIRC) have Bolter Bolts specifically called caseless ammunition.

Ok, all the current fluff says they use casings.

Rogue Trader era, or shortly after, fluff is no longer cannon.

Grey Templar wrote:Ok, all the current fluff says they use casings.

Rogue Trader era, or shortly after, fluff is no longer cannon.

13 years is not "shortly after"(3rd ed), especially since it was only replaced about 8 years ago.

If 3rd edition rule book fluff is no longer Canon, then people need to stop arguing that Hrud are Space Skaven.

Hrud are still around

PresidentOfAsia wrote:Not really a guardsmen but similar in size and strength,

the fire warrior in the ps2 fire warrior game can operate Space Marine bolters


Also Gunnery Saergent Harker can hold a heavy bolter by himself

That is really not a reliable sours^^. A tau fire warrior is about as strong as a human maybe even e bit weaker so he really can't fire an astartes bolter, it's way to heavy.