Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Psyk-out grenade: When a unit equipped with psyk-out grenades launches an assault, any Daemons or psykers in the assaulted unit(s) are reduced to initiative 1 for the remainder of the phase.

How does this work against Grey Knight squads with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule stating that
the unit as a whole counts as a single psyker, and any attacks specifically targeting psykers are resolved on the Justicar/Knight of the flame (or a random model if they are dead).

How is this resolved?
1. The entire unit is reduced to initiative 1 (doesn't look like it from RAW, none of the models in the unit are psykers, only the unit as a whole, and the grenade targets psykers in the assaulted unit).
2. The Justicar/Knight of the Flame/random model is reduced to initiative 1 as per the 2nd point in the Brotherhood of Psykers rule.
3. The unit despite being able to use psychic powers are unaffected.

Im going to go with the majority vote on the DE wargear on this one.

Only the justicar / Knight of the flame would be affected to start with.
Random knight after that. (if/when unit leader dies)

I'd say all of them, as the grenades don't target psychers. It checks if there is a psycher involved in the assault, and finds a single psycher consisting of X models. So that psycher(the unit) gets his initiative reduced to 1.

Id say that as it hits psykers specifically, that counts as targeting psykers. Thus the BoP rule that makes them psykers in the first place also makes the 'nades hit the focus of the squads psychic might, the justicar.

Jidmah wrote:I'd say all of them, as the grenades don't target psychers. It checks if there is a psycher involved in the assault, and finds a single psycher consisting of X models. So that psycher(the unit) gets his initiative reduced to 1.

But the grenades target every psyker in the unit, not the unit itself, and none of the models have the psyker special rule. The question as far as I see it would be if the justicar/KotF/random model has his initiative reduced to 1 because of the 2nd point in the Brotherhood of psykers special rule.

Simply put, in order to target something you have to chose a target and do something to it. The grenade is not targeted, as you can't chose a target, nor can you influence which models are affected. The grenade just hits all assaulted units, with no effect on anything but psychers and demons. As the whole unit is a psycher the whole unit would be affected.

Also the grenade is clearly not an attack, so the redirection to the justicar/knight of flame would not work anyway. Even the arguments for the DE-psycher nuke being an attack won't work for it.

Jidmah wrote:Simply put, in order to target something you have to chose a target and do something to it. The grenade is not targeted, as you can't chose a target, nor can you influence which models are affected. The grenade just hits all assaulted units, with no effect on anything but psychers and demons. As the whole unit is a psycher the whole unit would be affected.

Also the grenade is clearly not an attack, so the redirection to the justicar/knight of flame would not work anyway. Even the arguments for the DE-psycher nuke being an attack won't work for it.

Maybe target was a bad choice of words from me.
If the grenade modifies the initiative of all psykers in the unit assaulted, none of the models count as psykers (only the unit as a whole, but that isn't what has it's initiative modified by the grenade), and it does not effect the justicar/KotF/random model as from the Brotherhood of psykers rule, it sounds like it has no effect at all.

Yeah they effect Justicar they random as is.

Well, you actually have to break it down a bit further than everyone else seems to be doing.....

BoP rule states that any attack that specifically targets psykers is only against the Justicar/KOTF..... however, you don't use grenades to attack an infantry model, you can only use them against vehicles and buildings as per the rules for grenades in the BRB, as the damage caused by the grenades is assumed to be taken into account in the units close combat attacks.

BoP also stats that the unit counts as a single psyker and uses all the normal rules for psykers, with the two clarifications that follow, so that would still make the unit a psyker, becasue a single model can still be a unit, so a single psyker can still be a unit, i.e. Mephiston, Eldrad, and all the others.

And lastly, the Justicar/KOTF clarification states that any attack that specifically targets psykers, and the grenades don't specifically target psykers, they effect psykers AND daemons. Hence, its not specifically against psykers, as it effects more than just psykers, so the clarification for Justicar/KOTF is null and void.

So, single psyker counts as a unit?? yes
BoP unit counts as a single psyker??? yes
Grenades work against all psykers that are assaulting/being assaulted? yes
Grenades specifically target and attack psykers? no, they work against any psykers AND Daemons.

So, IMHO, the grenades work in the same way against BoP units as against everything else they effect.

Galador wrote:Well, you actually have to break it down a bit further than everyone else seems to be doing.....

BoP rule states that any attack that specifically targets psykers is only against the Justicar/KOTF..... however, you don't use grenades to attack an infantry model, you can only use them against vehicles and buildings as per the rules for grenades in the BRB, as the damage caused by the grenades is assumed to be taken into account in the units close combat attacks.

BoP also stats that the unit counts as a single psyker and uses all the normal rules for psykers, with the two clarifications that follow, so that would still make the unit a psyker, becasue a single model can still be a unit, so a single psyker can still be a unit, i.e. Mephiston, Eldrad, and all the others.

And lastly, the Justicar/KOTF clarification states that any attack that specifically targets psykers, and the grenades don't specifically target psykers, they effect psykers AND daemons. Hence, its not specifically against psykers, as it effects more than just psykers, so the clarification for Justicar/KOTF is null and void.

So, single psyker counts as a unit?? yes

Sure, a Librarian/farseer/Hive Tyrant/other psyker on his own is a unit.
An eldar warlock in a guardian squad is not a unit though, he is part of a unit (but he is a Single psyker as there is only one of him).

Is the term Single psyker defined somewhere to mean anything other than one psyker?

Galador wrote:
BoP unit counts as a single psyker??? yes

So BoP unit = Single Psyker = Unit.
Yes, a BoP Unit is a unit.
It doesn't specify that each model in a BoP unit is a psyker.

Galador wrote:
Grenades work against all psykers that are assaulting/being assaulted? yes

Grenades work against all psykers that are in the unit being assaulted

Galador wrote:
Grenades specifically target and attack psykers? no, they work against any psykers AND Daemons.

That they also work against deamons shouldn't effect anything.
An attack that specifically works against X and Y works against X.
A flamer that ignores armor saves AND cover saves will force a model with only an armor save to take a wound without getting a save.
The fact that cover saves are also ignored doesn't really matter.
If a grenade modifying initiative counts as an attack targeting psykers, only GW can tell.

Galador wrote:
So, IMHO, the grenades work in the same way against BoP units as against everything else they effect.

I don't really agree as the grenades have no basis for reducing the initiative for the models in the unit, as none of them are psykers,
and by your argument that it is not an attack, it doesn't effect the justicar/KotF/random model either, and thus would have no effect.

The single psyker terminology is most likely to clarify stuff like the Animus Speculum from the Culexus Assassin,
to make each BoP unit count as 1 psyker when calculating their effects.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The same question would also apply when attaking a Paladin squad with Nemesis weapons (the deamonbane part of the rules).

What it is most likely for and what it is are two separate things, but lets break it down a bit.

lets head to the Psykers page in the BRB, shall we???

Pg. 50: Psykers

Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. To use a psyckic power successfully, the Psyker(singular) must pass a Psychic test. Note that this must always be made on the psyker's(singular again) own Leadership value. Even where Leadership tests would normally be taken on the value of another model, test for using psychic powers are always taken using the psyker's(singular again) own leadership.

Seems like quite a bit of psyker in there, not psykers. Hence, a single model in a unit can be psychic, or an entire unit can be psychic.

The BoP unit is a unit correct? We have already established that. They count as a single Psyker, correct? yup we have already established that. Can a single Psyker count as a unit?? Yep, we've established that. So where is the issue? It was originally a unit before it was a psyker, so how would becoming a single psyker cause it to lose its unit status? Individual model units are fairly common, so I don't understand the point your trying to make with that.

you wrong, it does specify, except in the first sentence of the BoP rule section, that units of Grey Knights are Psykers. and if you don't want to use that, the BoP specifies that it counts as a single psyker and follows all the normal rules for psykers, hence why the grenades would effect them all.


As far as the grenades working against daemons also not effecting anything, how doesn't it?? The BoP rule states that the Justicar/KOTF takes the hit for any attack specifically targeting psykers, not for anything specifically targeting psykers and something else. So if the attack is specifically targeting psykers, how is it also targeting demons??? Its not, it only works specifically against psykers and daemons, not just psykers, so the Justicar/KOTF rule is void.

Is that a bit better clarification of what I meant??? Sorry if I didn't clear it up the first time!

Galador wrote:What it is most likely for and what it is are two separate things, but lets break it down a bit.

lets head to the Psykers page in the BRB, shall we???

Pg. 50: Psykers

Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. To use a psyckic power successfully, the Psyker(singular) must pass a Psychic test. Note that this must always be made on the psyker's(singular again) own Leadership value. Even where Leadership tests would normally be taken on the value of another model, test for using psychic powers are always taken using the psyker's(singular again) own leadership.

Seems like quite a bit of psyker in there, not psykers. Hence, a single model in a unit can be psychic, or an entire unit can be psychic.

The BoP unit is a unit correct? We have already established that. They count as a single Psyker, correct? yup we have already established that. Can a single Psyker count as a unit?? Yep, we've established that. So where is the issue? It was originally a unit before it was a psyker, so how would becoming a single psyker cause it to lose its unit status? Individual model units are fairly common, so I don't understand the point your trying to make with that.

you wrong, it does specify, except in the first sentence of the BoP rule section, that units of Grey Knights are Psykers. and if you don't want to use that, the BoP specifies that it counts as a single psyker and follows all the normal rules for psykers, hence why the grenades would effect them all.

BoP Unit count as Single psyker = unit, is all fine.
The BoP rule deals only with the unit as a whole, not the individual models. "Units of Grey Knights are psykers", not "Grey Knights are psykers".
Units are clearly defined in the BRB page 3, detailing that groups of models or single models are usually units, being a psyker or not doesn't matter.
A Single psyker is a unit as long as it is one unit that counts as a psyker, or 1 model with the psyker rule.
That a unit as a whole counts as a single psyker != all models in the unit are psykers.

Galador wrote:
As far as the grenades working against daemons also not effecting anything, how doesn't it?? The BoP rule states that the Justicar/KOTF takes the hit for any attack specifically targeting psykers, not for anything specifically targeting psykers and something else. So if the attack is specifically targeting psykers, how is it also targeting demons??? Its not, it only works specifically against psykers and daemons, not just psykers, so the Justicar/KOTF rule is void.

Is that a bit better clarification of what I meant??? Sorry if I didn't clear it up the first time!

Now you are twisting the rule that tells us how to deal with anything that has an effect on psykers on a BoP unit because
it also has an effect on something else that has nothing to do with the unit.

What you are saying is that anything that has an effect on models that are psykers, and something else will have no effect on BoP units,
as the individual models are not psykers, and the justicar can't be the target because it also works on something else.

The DE wargear is another matter as it "targets" any psyker within 3D6" (and either the justicar or the entire unit will be removed if the test is failed
depending on how that issue is ruled).

The difference is that with the grenades, and nemesis weapons, the model has to be a psyker.

Accersitus wrote:

Galador wrote:
As far as the grenades working against daemons also not effecting anything, how doesn't it?? The BoP rule states that the Justicar/KOTF takes the hit for any attack specifically targeting psykers, not for anything specifically targeting psykers and something else. So if the attack is specifically targeting psykers, how is it also targeting demons??? Its not, it only works specifically against psykers and daemons, not just psykers, so the Justicar/KOTF rule is void.

Is that a bit better clarification of what I meant??? Sorry if I didn't clear it up the first time!

Now you are twisting the rule that tells us how to deal with anything that has an effect on psykers on a BoP unit because
it also has an effect on something else that has nothing to do with the unit.

What you are saying is that anything that has an effect on models that are psykers, and something else will have no effect on BoP units,
as the individual models are not psykers, and the justicar can't be the target because it also works on something else.

The DE wargear is another matter as it "targets" any psyker within 3D6" (and either the justicar or the entire unit will be removed if the test is failed
depending on how that issue is ruled).

The difference is that with the grenades, and nemesis weapons, the model has to be a psyker.

First off, the DE wargear you are referring to would be the Crucible of Malediction, correct?? The CoM doesn't "target" anything, nor does it target anything. There is no reference to a target for the CoM, and the only reference for targeting in the shooting phase is in the BRB on pg 15, and that is for shooting weapons. But that is an arguement for another thread, so feel free to take it up with me over there, cause noone else wants to see logic in that thread, maybe you can either help them see my logic or help me to see theirs.

I did not twist the rules, I went directly with RAW, it states any attack that specifically targets psykers, for one. Grenades do not "target" anything, because they cannot be used in the shooting phase. So without a "target", it negates that part of the BoP rule for the Justicar/KOTF.

And how can you specifically target psykers if you also target something else, assuming the grenade targeted anything? The word specifically, if you'll pardonthe bad joke, seems quite "specific" to me!

Galador wrote:

Accersitus wrote:

Galador wrote:
As far as the grenades working against daemons also not effecting anything, how doesn't it?? The BoP rule states that the Justicar/KOTF takes the hit for any attack specifically targeting psykers, not for anything specifically targeting psykers and something else. So if the attack is specifically targeting psykers, how is it also targeting demons??? Its not, it only works specifically against psykers and daemons, not just psykers, so the Justicar/KOTF rule is void.

Is that a bit better clarification of what I meant??? Sorry if I didn't clear it up the first time!

Now you are twisting the rule that tells us how to deal with anything that has an effect on psykers on a BoP unit because
it also has an effect on something else that has nothing to do with the unit.

What you are saying is that anything that has an effect on models that are psykers, and something else will have no effect on BoP units,
as the individual models are not psykers, and the justicar can't be the target because it also works on something else.

The DE wargear is another matter as it "targets" any psyker within 3D6" (and either the justicar or the entire unit will be removed if the test is failed
depending on how that issue is ruled).

The difference is that with the grenades, and nemesis weapons, the model has to be a psyker.

First off, the DE wargear you are referring to would be the Crucible of Malediction, correct?? The CoM doesn't "target" anything, nor does it target anything. There is no reference to a target for the CoM, and the only reference for targeting in the shooting phase is in the BRB on pg 15, and that is for shooting weapons. But that is an arguement for another thread, so feel free to take it up with me over there, cause noone else wants to see logic in that thread, maybe you can either help them see my logic or help me to see theirs.

I did not twist the rules, I went directly with RAW, it states any attack that specifically targets psykers, for one. Grenades do not "target" anything, because they cannot be used in the shooting phase. So without a "target", it negates that part of the BoP rule for the Justicar/KOTF.

And how can you specifically target psykers if you also target something else, assuming the grenade targeted anything? The word specifically, if you'll pardonthe bad joke, seems quite "specific" to me!

First off, I used "target" and not target since the subject is still debated in that thread.

And while the "attack", and "targeting" in the BoP can be interpreted both ways, if we assume you are correct(I for one don't agree with your take on it, but am willing to accept it may be correct. Will have to wait for a GW FAQ on that one), and the justicar/KotF/random model can't take the effect of the grenades/nemesis weapons,
it seems like they will have no effect at all on the unit.

Are you really saying that if there was a weapon that was a Template that wounded Psykers and Daemons on 2+ no save, and another weapon that was a Template that wounded Psykers on 2+ no save, if both weapons had no effect on other models, would a BoP unit be immune to the first weapon, but the justicar would die on 2+ from the 2nd weapon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Starting tio guess we are both at the point where this would describe both of us:


Might be about time to just agree to disagree and wait for the official ruling.

Accersitus wrote:Starting tio guess we are both at the point where this would describe both of us:


Might be about time to just agree to disagree and wait for the official ruling.

Love that picture, and right now, its not me. I am on vacation and my kids are at theirh grandparents for spring break and wife is at work, so I'm just using my time the way I want, for now.

We can always agree to disagree, I have no issues with that. I simply leave you with one parting question, to be answered at your leisure and if you want, in a PM: Where does it state that the Psyk out grenades target or attack anything??

Also, the first one they wouldn't be immune to, they would all have issues with it because, as per BoP, Grey Knight units are Psykers, and you stated that it specifically targets psykers AND daemons, and nothing else. Even though it singles psykers out from the masses, it doesn't single out just Psykers, hence it is not specifically targeting psykers!

The second one, I would gladly tell you that since it specifically attacks Psykers, and only Psykers, that the BoP rule means it can only hurt the Justicar, as it only targets psykers, no other models !

Galador wrote:

Accersitus wrote:Starting tio guess we are both at the point where this would describe both of us:


Might be about time to just agree to disagree and wait for the official ruling.

Love that picture, and right now, its not me. I am on vacation and my kids are at theirh grandparents for spring break and wife is at work, so I'm just using my time the way I want, for now.

We can always agree to disagree, I have no issues with that. I simply leave you with one parting question, to be answered at your leisure and if you want, in a PM: Where does it state that the Psyk out grenades target or attack anything??

Also, the first one they wouldn't be immune to, they would all have issues with it because, as per BoP, Grey Knight units are Psykers, and you stated that it specifically targets psykers AND daemons, and nothing else. Even though it singles psykers out from the masses, it doesn't single out just Psykers, hence it is not specifically targeting psykers!

The second one, I would gladly tell you that since it specifically attacks Psykers, and only Psykers, that the BoP rule means it can only hurt the Justicar, as it only targets psykers, no other models !

Attack and target seem to both be poorly defined in the rules in general, and I feel that just treating the Justicar/KotF/random model as the Psyker in the unit as the most balanced and problem free way, and I hope GW will rule it that way.

Good point, the template would target the unit as a whole, and then allocate the wounds to models.

The point of the 2nd one is just to show how silly it is, a weapon that specifically targets the unit is weaker than the more general one.

The picture is from http://www.xkcd.org btw, if you need to kill time, it's not a bad place to go.

Yeah, I go to Ctrl alt Del, licd, and lfg for my webcomic needs. I love all three of them, have been entertaining me for years!!

"Agree to disagree" is a lazy way to end a discussion you have made up your mind about, and should have no room in this forum.

As attacks are quite well defined in WH40k, there are shooting attacks, psychic shooting attacks, close combat attacks, ram attacks and some amount and war gear/special rules stating that they make an attack.
You can't fit Rad Grenades in any of those, and even if you wish to use the more broad advance of "anything causing wounds is an attack" the grenade still won't fit. As stated before, the grenade is not looking for single models being psychers, but any psychers in assaulting units.

When a unit equipped with psyk-out grenades launches an assault, any Daemons or psykers in the assaulted unit(s) are reduced to initiative 1 for the remainder of the phase.

You deal with this sequentially:
Grey Knights assaulted a unit, this rule triggers.
Are there any demons in the unit? No.
Are there any psykers in the unit? Yes.
Who is it? The unit is the psyker.
Do you resolve this against Knight of Flame/Justicar?
-> Is this an attack specifically targeting psykers? No.
-> No.
The psyker's initiative goes down to 1.

I see your 'GKs don't have the Psyker special rule' and raise you a 'neither does Ahriman'. Then again Ahriman's RAW doesn't allow him to use Psychic Powers at all.

That aside, sometimes you just need to man up and play the game in a way that makes sense.