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Just curious what folks thought regarding loading out Berzerkers - do you give them a fist or a power weapon/meltabomb?

I keep going through my list of reasons to keep the Power Fist and it seems like it boils down to "Just in case there's a Dread" and that any transport charged with a fist is pretty much doomed, whereas the Meltabomb has a pretty decent chance of whiffing.

Then I consider how much better they'd do against MEQs and TEQs with power weapons instead of fists....

Swapping to the PW/Melta would also free up 5 points for a Personal Icon, allowing my Oblits to drop down where I need them for cracking things open.

Thoughts?

1-UP wrote:Just curious what folks thought regarding loading out Berzerkers - do you give them a fist or a power weapon/meltabomb?

I keep going through my list of reasons to keep the Power Fist and it seems like it boils down to "Just in case there's a Dread" and that any transport charged with a fist is pretty much doomed, whereas the Meltabomb has a pretty decent chance of whiffing.

Then I consider how much better they'd do against MEQs and TEQs with power weapons instead of fists....

Swapping to the PW/Melta would also free up 5 points for a Personal Icon, allowing my Oblits to drop down where I need them for cracking things open.

Thoughts?

So the choice is between a 25 pt upgrade or a 20 pt upgrade on a 15 pt sarge upgrade on a 21 pt model? 56 or 61 pts fora single wound sarge model? Screw that choice, take more zerkers. Use other units to break tanks. You probably would be better off just taking more zerkers for CC ability over 50+ pt sarges.

Sucks that CSM haves such awful pointing for their sarges. Compare to the more recent books where the 10 pts sarge cost is included (vanilla) no sarge at all (SWs, which can buy amazing sarges with elite choices) or effectively free sarges (GKs don't have even a hidden sarge tax in their army). Hell a Ork Nob in a boy squad only costs 41 pts, and has 2 wounds and has furious charge and 3 base attacks just like zerker champions.

notabot187 wrote:
So the choice is between a 25 pt upgrade or a 20 pt upgrade on a 15 pt sarge upgrade on a 21 pt model? 56 or 61 pts fora single wound sarge model? Screw that choice, take more zerkers. Use other units to break tanks. You probably would be better off just taking more zerkers for CC ability over 50+ pt sarges.

Sucks that CSM haves such awful pointing for their sarges. Compare to the more recent books where the 10 pts sarge cost is included (vanilla) no sarge at all (SWs, which can buy amazing sarges with elite choices) or effectively free sarges (GKs don't have even a hidden sarge tax in their army). Hell a Ork Nob in a boy squad only costs 41 pts, and has 2 wounds and has furious charge and 3 base attacks just like zerker champions.

I respectfully disagree about upgrades on Berzerkers. A Skull Champion with a Power Weapon costs you 51 points, and nets you 5 WS5, I5, S5 power weapon attacks on the charge, and it's "hidden" in the unit. His practical stat line is comparable with most MEQ Independent Characters.

As for the Power Fist, it's kind of a waste. You lose one attack and that brutality of I5 butt kicking for a hidden fist...I haven't found it to be particularly worthwhile.

Sure, the Skull Champ with sword has more attacks than the typical Meq generic HQs. But what does 5 attacks get you? 3 hits (assuming hitting on 3s) 2 wounds. Not that bad, right? Your normal guys cost 21 pts, 2 of them get 8 attacks, 5 hits, 3-4 wounds. Sure the enemy will get armor, but you still should kill one marine. So by spending less, you get twice as many wounds on your side, while missing out on maybe one kill? Against non Meqs, the advantage looks even stronger against PWs.

Comparing a Skull champion to an IC is a bit silly. Beatstick characters are not worth it, so people take their characters for other things, be it a librarian/sorcerer powers, FOC unlocking like a captain, MOF, or special character. Choppness in CC is the least important consideration when selecting HQs. Hell in most lists I make I really wish I didn't have to pay the HQ tax at all.

I'll actually chip in in favor of the fist.

Firstly, the power weapon isn't as good as the fist against space marines. On the charge, you're looking at 1.66 marines killed with the sword against 1.68 killed with the fist. Even against light infantry, there isn't all that big of a split on GEq either (2.8 v 2.3). That extra strength goes a long way to cover the -1 A.

Secondly, this is one of the best places in the game to take a power fist. On the one hand, it's hidden, unlike several power fist places out there. On the other hand, even though you're taking a fist, you still get 3 attacks per turn... at WS5... once things get dug in.

Thirdsly, it's not just about dreadnoughts. There are plenty of things out there that are T5+, that a S4 power weapon will struggle against after the first round of combat. This includes dreads, but it also includes wraithlord, bikes, c'tan, ogryn, mephiston, demon princes, etc. etc. Most armies can field things, vehicle-based or no, that is going to be tough to bring down with a S5/4 power weapon that a S9/8 power fist will just sort of laugh at and beat down.

Furthermore, I don't quite see why spending the points on a different type of support unit is better. Yes, it costs 40 points for a fist upgrade, but it's on a squad you're already taking. Also, what else are you really going to spend those points on? A single obliterator that's going to get wiped away the turn after it shows up? Havocs?

CSM support options are kind of crap. Being able to take such a nice power bump to already good units seems like the better plan.

4 power fist attacks on the charge... my god...
Strength 9 charging a tank.... hmmm.... anything but 1 and you have a pen on just about any tank... sign me up

power fist is just so versitile, I'm currently running squads of 5 Berzerkers with a PF champion in a rhino. 180 pts for a major threat against close to everything.

It's expensive, sure, but everything good in the CSM codex is expensive- just gotta suck it up til we get a new codex and use each unit effectively tactically.

In favor of the fist as well.

Since that power weapon will strike at the same initiative as the rest of your squads, it's going to be fairly easy to stack power weapon hits on the same targets with wound assignation given the amount of hits a zerker squad can dish out.

The fist being initiative one will not allow for a lot of assignation customization.