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Hey,

I had this idea and wanted to see what others thought. First here's the list

Army List Points Limit: 2250
Army Type: Skaven
Army List Total Points: 2250

Qty Characters Items Points
1 Queek Headtaker 215
1 Chieftain BSB, Foul Pendant, Halberd, Ironcurse Icon, Dragonhelm 117
1 Warlock Engineer Lv2, Warp-Energy Condenser, Doomrocket 150
1 Warlock Engineer Lv2, Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring of Fire 150

Core Units Equipment/Upgrades
35 Clanrats Shields, Standard, Champion, Musician 177.5
1 Warp-Fire Thrower 70
40 Slaves Musician 82
40 Slaves Musician 82
21 Slaves Slings, Musician 54.5
20 Slaves Slings, Musician 52
10 Night Runners Slings 80
10 Night Runners Slings 80
10 Night Runners Slings 80

Special Units Equipment/Upgrades
5 Gutter Runners Slings, Poison 90
5 Gutter Runners Slings, Poison 90
5 Gutter Runners Slings, Poison 90
5 Jezzails 100
5 Jezzails 100
6 Globadiers 60

Rare Units Equipment/Upgrades
1 Warp-Lightning Cannon 90
1 Warp-Lightning Cannon 90
1 Doomwheel 150


Now there is no stormbanner for obvious reasons. Idea is the gutter runners take out anything like warmachines, lone characters and then generally harass the enemy.
Have jezzails and globadiers to take out heavy armour
Night runners and slaves target the bulk infantry and rock their world
Cannons and doomwheel blast big things
Warp-fire thrower goes for anything with regeneration and generally provides support for the three big units
The three big units hold the centre and contain the characters
Queek is there to provide leadership. With a large contingency of skirmishers and slaves in two ranks (with slings to fire) I thought that the Ld8 was worth it. He's also a cool model and not bad in combat. Gets very good overkill against champions (with probably 2+ to hit, and 2+ to wound)
The engineers will warp-lightning spam and see what else they get with their extra spell and use that if needed (cracks calls etc). With the Ruby Ring there can be some significant damage put out each turn from just 6 dice.


So any thoughts?

Thoughts:

Queek is a pretty decent general for this style. The BSB, though, feels like he could be built even better. Talisman of Preservation + Icon + halberd comes to mind.

With the shooting theme, I think a Brass-orb Engineer would be fitting. Plus, it'll actually help take down those things that shooting will have a hard time with (Anvil of Doom and Steam Tank are the two I'm thinking of).

To be honest, I don't think your core units are big enough for 2250 to actually tarpit a unit. A unit of 18 chaos warriors will tear through 30 clanrats/slaves in two phases.

I'd consider dropping a unit of Gutter Runners. They are absolutely amazing when it comes to taking out artillery. They are very expensive and very fragile for taking out much else.

Overall, I would assume that you would be best suited to getting as much Rare artillery as you can (2 cannons, 2 catapults), and then getting weapon teams. Slaves with slings are...worth the extra 25pts you pay on a unit of 50. I really don't know about Nightrunners. They're generally too expensive (I've run 15-20 of them with a Warp-grinder with [usually] good results, but that's about it). So I'd say that your artillery in Rare and team form is your best bet.

If you wanted to go super-slingy, I'd suggest getting enough Plague magic to get Bless with Filth.

Finally, I don't think you need a Doomwheel when you're packing 2 cannons. They do basically the same thing, with the Wheel being more reliable, less flexible, and almost double the cost. So I'd just save the points.

Thoughts:

Queek is a pretty decent general for this style. The BSB, though, feels like he could be built even better. Talisman of Preservation + Icon + halberd comes to mind.

Good call. I've changed it up

With the shooting theme, I think a Brass-orb Engineer would be fitting. Plus, it'll actually help take down those things that shooting will have a hard time with (Anvil of Doom and Steam Tank are the two I'm thinking of).

Thought about it but I think the ruby ring will do more damage. Granted they can't take Stanks or Anvils but my regular opponents don't have those.

To be honest, I don't think your core units are big enough for 2250 to actually tarpit a unit. A unit of 18 chaos warriors will tear through 30 clanrats/slaves in two phases.

I think the three main units are larger enough. If a unit of nasties like chaos warriors are bearing down then I'll just send Queek in. Plus a unit that expensive is going to be a juicy target for the jezzails and other warmachines.

I'd consider dropping a unit of Gutter Runners. They are absolutely amazing when it comes to taking out artillery. They are very expensive and very fragile for taking out much else.

Ok I'll drop a unit of gutters

Overall, I would assume that you would be best suited to getting as much Rare artillery as you can (2 cannons, 2 catapults), and then getting weapon teams. Slaves with slings are...worth the extra 25pts you pay on a unit of 50. I really don't know about Nightrunners. They're generally too expensive (I've run 15-20 of them with a Warp-grinder with [usually] good results, but that's about it). So I'd say that your artillery in Rare and team form is your best bet.

I'll see how it goes with the two cannons and one catapult to start. I'll see how the nigh runners go as they do get some decent shooting (2 shots at probably 6+) being skirmishers. Also two attacks each at I5 could be handy in combat when needed.

If you wanted to go super-slingy, I'd suggest getting enough Plague magic to get Bless with Filth.

Thanks for the advice

Finally, I don't think you need a Doomwheel when you're packing 2 cannons. They do basically the same thing, with the Wheel being more reliable, less flexible, and almost double the cost. So I'd just save the points.

Yeah I just like the wheel and it's fun. It also draws attention which is a good bonus.

Here's the updated

Army List Points Limit: 2250
Army Type: Skaven
Army List Total Points: 2250

Qty Characters Items Points
1 Queek Headtaker 215
1 Chieftain BSB, Talisman of Presevation, Halberd, Ironcurse Icon 122
1 Warlock Engineer Lv2, Warp-Energy Condenser, Doomrocket 150
1 Warlock Engineer Lv2, Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring of Fire 150

Core Units Equipment/Upgrades
34 Clanrats Shields, Standard, Champion, Musician 173
1 Warp-Fire Thrower 70
41 Slaves Musician 84
40 Slaves Musician 82
20 Slaves Slings, Musician 52
20 Slaves Slings, Musician 52
10 Night Runners Slings 80
10 Night Runners Slings 80
10 Night Runners Slings 80

Special Units Equipment/Upgrades
5 Gutter Runners Slings, Poison 90
5 Gutter Runners Slings, Poison 90
5 Jezzails 100
5 Jezzails 100
5 Globadiers 50

Rare Units Equipment/Upgrades
1 Warp-Lightning Cannon 90
1 Warp-Lightning Cannon 90
1 Plauge-Claw Catapult 100
1 Doomwheel 150

i might be wrong but BSB's cant take any other items other that the banner as a magic item. looks a damn scary army tho.

If you take a magic banner, you can't take anything else, and vise versa.

Also, Night Runners are not Skirmished. Not really sure how bad that is versus good.

Also, Night Runners are not Skirmished. Not really sure how bad that is versus good.

I keep forgetting that thanks for reminding me.

Played a game yesterday with a mate with this list. He was playing bretonians and the random scenario we got was meeting engagement. Both my cannons, one unit of gutter runners, one unit of slaves with slings and two units of night runners were all off the board to start.

His army consisted of 2 units of archers (12ish), 2 large units of knights (9), two smaller units of knights (6 but grail), 3 pegasus knights, a Lv4, Lv2, general, paladin (with grail knights), paladin (on pegasus by himself).

We also had the random terrain and got 10 pieces so it was quite a cluttered table (4 buildings, a river, two hills, fence, elven waystone and arcane ruins).

I had to set up first and got the first turn so set up deep in my half (tanking the anvil of vaul hill in my corner). I ended up winning but here's the performance report

Queek: Ld provision was good but when charged by the bretonian general (only guy left in his unit) he died. Did one wound in combat (the bret had the magic item that means he can only take one wound in any phase) and then was cut down.
BSB: didn't get attacked at all and did what he was suppose to do
Engineer with doomrocket: overshot the doomrocket and towards the end of the game miscast with a 10 so went to Lv0. Didn't do too badly though
Engineer with Ruby Ring: Got irresistable force on the ruby ring and warp lightning both in the same turn. That warp-lightning took a wound off him and then the miscast did another. Didn't do too badly though.
Clanrats: Didn't die and held the centre well as they were meant to
two big blocks of slaves: One of them held up a large unit of knights until I brought the reserve slaves on and rear charged them. The other lost combat against three kights (including the general) and then failed steadfast 10 twice.
Warp-fire thrower: His Lv4 killed it with chain lightning before it could do anything
20 slaves with slings: they entered a building and threw rocks. Actually did a bit of damage killing 4/5 archers (in a nearby building) and a kight and wouding the pegasus paladin
20 slaves off the board: did well as I held them back and then brought them on to rear charge the knights, killing and runnign them down
Night runners: they did ok but with the archers all in buildings and the only real targets being knights they were a bit hard pressed to do any damage. Running them next to a big block of slaves however kept them out of notice and their combat effectiveness is actually pretty good with I5. Maybe drop to two units
Gutter Runners: like the night runners didn't do much but get killed early. Managed to do some damage at least
Jezzails: They setup on the hill and shot lots down. really good
Globadiers: got killed before they could do anything
Cannons: once they came on they were good as always
Catapult: didn't do much. I don't seem to be able to hit with it
Doomwheel: charged a unit of men at arms, killed a bunch and made them flee. Was then charged by the paladin on pegasus and died (already had taken three wounds from magic and stuff)

Overall fairly happy and it was fun. I think I'll drop a unit of runners and the globadiers and some champions in the big units of slaves would go well. The sneaky infiltrator rule for the night runners is quite nice.
Now what to do with 124pts?

I really don't know why people recommend offensive equipment to their BSB. It is the most important thing in your army. And skaven are lucky to be able to have their BSB equip a shield. Drop the hally and pick up a shield. You were lucky to not have him get attacked but an knowledgeable general who has fought skaven before will not challenge and will have their rank and file direct attacks at him.

Yeah, you dont challenge skaven...

'less your Warriors. Or the Skaven player has Queek or Sniktch.

Now, this is why I'd recommend a halberd over a shield:

- +1 armour isn't going to get you as far as -1 armour and an easier time wounding stuff, from a purely mathematical point.

- part of being defensive is being able to get out of dangerous situations fast enough. As I've learned with Dwarfs, you can't survive forever. Only Dark Elves can do that. So you need to be able to kill some stuff sometimes (though I wouldn't take this as far as to lower his Ward save, thanks to Death snipers).

- your opponent won't always challenge or target your BSB; there's been plenty of times where my (rather cunning) enemy has noticed that he's got two combat phases before he gets flank-charged by something, and he opts to get to the hard work of grinding down as much of my unit as he can.

- lastly, I'd say that, for 2pts, you can offer your unit a little more oomph against units without combat-superpowers in them. It makes you a little more versatile.
On this note, I'd point to the tendency of players to make the sacrifice of armour to get higher S. A shield won't do anything for your BSB if you're up against S6 dudes and it's barely worth mentioning at S5. But if that halberd can get you an extra kill or two...

Final declaration: both are 2pt upgrades, and are as useful as 2pt upgrades. Neither will have a huge impact on the survivability of the Chieftain, but I believe the halberd has a slight edge.

Don't they still get the parry save? In that case it's a little more then +1 Armor. As for directing attacks you can have anywhere from 4-12 rank and file directing attacks pending on the army and how they line up against you. Any extra bit helps. Don't you also give up VP for losing this guy? Or is it only if the unit he is with flees? And as for wounding you don't take units of Clanrats for doing wounds you take stormvermin, plague monks with plague furnaces, warp lightning cannons, doom wheels, weapon teams, aboms and other things not clan rats. The purpose of clan rats, and in this case with shields is to be a slightly better tarpit then slaves with higher costs, unless you are facing goblins most other units will defeat them eventually.

Well...yeah, you get a Parry save, but I'm assuming you've given your BSB the biggest, juiciest Ward save you can afford, for all-around protection.

He's only worth the point when he breaks from combat.

And yeah, every bit helps. Which is my point; I'd rather get an extra wound or two in towards the goal of ending the combat, compared to having another 16% chance to negate a wound done, especially when that increase can be negated (the bonus to S can too, but less often, and in the same circumstances, such as against monsters).

Generally, I've seen that if models are a low enough S that the extra armour is helping, he shouldn't need it too much. If it would help, it'll probably be negated, or the amount of wounds coming his way will be too much.

Clanrats aren't that good at killin' stuff, that's true. But I'm talking about the overall combat. Some clanrats, a chieftain, and an a-bomb are all in a combat together. Every wound prevent helps. Every wound done helps more.

And for the record:

- mathematically, Slaves are better tar pits than Clanrats, with the general nearby.

- spears are better than hand weapons. A unit fielded solely to keep Steadfast for as long as possible, obviously, benefits from spears. But if you want that unit to contribute to the fight, even a little, spears are the way to go. Though they are more expensive (which is why I don't take 'em).
If a Parry save prevented two extra models from dying, the extra attacks from spears would, in most cases, kill an extra two, which is better.

For the record my BSB didn't get attacked as the opponent didn't get a chance to attack him.

Regarding the slaves yes they are because you can get so many more bodies but clanrats are still quite useful as A) they can have weapons teams, B) they don't need the general nearby, C) they don't pop which is good for characters living in them.

Regarding the spears comment I disagree because by equiping with spears you get an additional 5 attacks. Hit half, wound half means they'll kill an extra 1 at the most, 2 if lucky (statisically) and that's if the opponent doesn't have armour. Compare that to HW shield you'll save an extra 1 in 6 plus they are cheaper which is why I prefer HW/Shield over Spear/Shield. Also if you want to be steadfast for as long as possible you want more bodies and more survivability. Couple that with the fact all my CR are HW/Shield and it's a no brainer for me.


Anyone reccomend something to do with my spare 124pts?

...yes. As I said:

Warpsolution wrote:Slaves are better tar pits than Clanrats, with the general nearby..

As for the spear thing, well, what I meant to say was that " A unit fielded solely to keep Steadfast for as long as possible, obviously, benefits from shields. But if you want that unit to contribute to the fight, even a little, spears are the way to go", as that is a sensible statement.


Now, again, like I said, a unit--all on its lonesome and without aid--will do better with spears than with hand weapons. One unit of Clanrats with spears versus one unit of whatever will almost always do better than Clanrats with a Parry save against the same foe.
The math is pretty simple here: a Parry save will prevent 1 out of 6 wounds. Every extra attack spears give you will generally wound 1 in 4 to 1 in 6 times. Nothing outside of these numbers (wounds caused, armour, etc.) matters, except this: it's better to have killed an extra enemy model than to have saved one of yours. Dead enemies can't attack, and go towards winning combat and earning victory points. Not-dead allies will stand their ground and deny victory points, but they can still die in the future.

But, once again, this advantage is extremely minor. Probably proportional, in fact, to the minor cost.

There you have it: Truth in full.

Warpsolution wrote:...yes. As I said:

Warpsolution wrote:Slaves are better tar pits than Clanrats, with the general nearby..

Well for a 2 pt model vs a 4 pt model yes, but a unit of 40 clan rats and a unit of 40 slaves, clan rats will hold the line better being harder to hit due to weapon skill and light armor. Having said that I prefer slaves due to the costs and the fact I can shoot the unit I am tar pitting. And I would not rely on slaves or clan rats to cause any wounds, we have a lot more toys to handle that end of the battle.

I am not a skaven general and somewhat new to the game of fantasy, but with 124 points? i would say get a proper horde going with two of your slave units and beef them up or amp up your clanrats, youll have plenty of boddies to tar pit with and at the same time with hording you should be abel to improve your CR..

Hording slaves and clan rats is not advisable. Skaven get a leadership bonus for extra ranks

Hargus56 wrote:Hording slaves and clan rats is not advisable. Skaven get a leadership bonus for extra ranks

With leadership 8 base, you only need 2 ranks for the max.

For a Queek gunline, I'd add in at least 3 plague mortars. Those things are awesome at thinning down chaos warriors and knights.
I'd also pick up the 2nd plague claw catapult; those things put a real dent in enemy hordes, and elves of all flavors.

If you only want the leadership, it's much cheaper to just take a unit of storm vermin and add the banner of discipline, and drop the general in that (which could be a seer).
Having a base leadership of 8 only helps against those death spell snipes, and against those, a base 7 with a ward save is typically better.

-Matt

First of all:

Slaves versus Clanrats: yes, Clanrats are more durable/model. But I'm talking about the overall effectiveness of the unit, including points. I mean, a Chaos Warrior is more durable than a Clan rat. A dragon is a mite tougher than both. It's all moot until you consider what you're getting for what you're paying.

And Horded Clanrats/Slaves can certainly work. With a 50-strong unit (pretty typical), you need to lose 16 models before you lose your first bonus to Ld. And with spears, Bless With Filth, Death Frenzy, and/or shooting and magic, you can do pretty well.

I think Warpfire Throwers and Poisoned Wind Mortars are about equal; S5 is usually enough to take 'em down, and the flame template, flaming, D3 wounds are all super useful. It's just a lot less reliable. Really, I think it's better against infantry (even Warriors), since S5 -2 is about the same as 5+ no armour against elites, and better against hordes. But cavalry will die faster to the Mortar. And more stuff will get hit in general by the Mortar.

Queek isn't all that great, it's true. But he's Ld8 and great in a fight. Though maybe a Warlord with a 4+ Ward and the Standard would be a better (...cheaper?) general.

Thanks for the tips guys.

For a Queek gunline, I'd add in at least 3 plague mortars. Those things are awesome at thinning down chaos warriors and knights.
I'd also pick up the 2nd plague claw catapult; those things put a real dent in enemy hordes, and elves of all flavors.

Taking 3 mortars would need significant change as I'd have to take 3 units of clanrats and If I do that then I may as well just change back to my other list. I'll add in the second catapult with the spare points though. I want to give the WFT a crack as well partly because it is fire (and nothing else is) so I'll keep it for now as well.

Also I'm not keen on taking a seer as they chew up a lot of points and I suppose the point of this list is to be shooting heavy rather than magic heavy.

So here is the update:

Army List Points Limit: 2250
Army Type: Skaven
Army List Total Points: 2249

Qty Characters Items Points
1 Queek Headtaker 215
1 Chieftain BSB, Talisman of Presevation, Halberd, Ironcurse Icon 122
1 Warlock Engineer Lv2, Warp-Energy Condenser, Doomrocket 150
1 Warlock Engineer Lv2, Dispel Scroll, Ruby Ring of Fire 150

Core Units Equipment/Upgrades
35 Clanrats Shields, Standard, Champion, Musician 177.5
1 Warp-Fire Thrower 70
44 Slaves Champion, Musician 94
44 Slaves Champion, Musician 94
21 Slaves Slings, Musician 54.5
20 Slaves Slings, Musician 52
10 Night Runners Slings 80
10 Night Runners Slings 80


Special Units Equipment/Upgrades
5 Gutter Runners Slings, Poison 90
5 Gutter Runners Slings, Poison 90
5 Jezzails 100
5 Jezzails 100


Rare Units Equipment/Upgrades
1 Warp-Lightning Cannon 90
1 Warp-Lightning Cannon 90
1 Plauge-Claw Catapult 100
1 Plauge-Claw Catapult 100
1 Doomwheel 150

How would you deploy this?

Characters: engineer in each large slave unit, queek and BSB in the big clanrat unit

Assuming there is a hill cannons and jezzails up there. If there is a building then sling slaves will probably go for it (or maybe night runners).

Catapults on the hill as well if large enough otherwise behind troops.

The three non shooting units go Slave, Clanrat, Slave and are flanked by slaves with slings or night runners with slings. Doomwheel takes a flank. Sling slaves or night runners may deploy near the hill as protection. Sling slaves probably 10*2. maybe even as a screen in front of my other units.

Alternatively I deploy to counter the opponent with the idea being to rock them to death and then hope their manageable in combat.

I generally make an assessment of my deployment after the table is setup (and based on the opposition army) so it's hard to say exactly but i suppose symetrical is pretty common so that queek can LD boost as many units as possible (especially sling slaves in 2 ranks)