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The Ultramarines are proud symbols of the Adeptus Astartes.

The Ultramarines control their own "kingdom" within the Imperium, directly ruling over the people of Ultramar.

The Ultramarines and their descendent Chapters make up more than half of the Space Marines in the Imperium. All owe their loyalty to Marneus Calgar, their "spiritual liege." Many other Chapters not directly descended from the Ultramarines also obey their commands, as demonstrated by the Zeist Campaign. All Codex-compliant Space Marines follow a single book of tactics - tactics that the Ultramarines' founder wrote.

The Ultramarines' most powerful Librarian, Varro Tigurius, claims that incomplete knowledge in an unready mind is the most dangerous thing in the galaxy. He also has the ability to make pinpoint predictions of enemy movements, and he is suspected to have tapped into the Hive Mind of the Tyranids, which would drive any sane man mad. Even worse, the Tyranids, which are drawn to psychic presences in the Warp, bypassed several agri-worlds and civilized worlds to attack the barren, heavily protected Macragge during the First Tyrannic War - Macragge, the home of Varro Tigurius.

The Ultramarines' Chapter Master, Marneus Calgar, wields the Gauntlets of Ultramar, a pair of power fists with incorporated bolters, which were reclaimed from a fallen Chaos Champion by the founder of the Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman. The Gauntlets have never been declared as safe for use by a Tech-Priest or Chaplain, as they are so thick that their inner workings cannot be observed.

The Ultramarines' Primarch, Roboute Guilliman, was conveniently elsewhere during the Horus Heresy, as Horus had "tricked" him into sending his legion to the other side of the Galaxy. When he returned, the attack from his old enemy Lorgar had somehow not managed to diminish his forces to any serious degree, and he became Lord Commander of the Imperium. He was later mortally injured by an attack from Fulgrim and interred in a stasis field, yet despite this those who have seen him claim his wound is healing. They ascribe this miracle to the divine will of the Emperor.

So how is it that the Ultramarines are not considered dangerous to the Imperium? Who watches them?

The Inquisition

Pilau Rice wrote:The Inquisition

They've done a terrible job if the Ultramarines can get away with all this. It's either that, or they've realized that irritating over half of all the eight foot tall power armored acid breathing super mutants in the galaxy is not a wise political decision.

They're as loyal a Space Marine Chapter is going to get. You're not going to pull rank on the poster boys.

If you do you got roughly 999 other chapters to deal with.

Not even the Ward Knights could handle that many Space Marines.

The Ultras have a "ward"-save against everything

I doubt the Ultras are able to command other forces of the IoM.
But they also may have the contacts to achieve more than most of the secretive chapters.

Plus, whoever believes in this 'spiritual liege idea' of M.Ward ?

The would still have to have their geneseed controlled by the tithe, still have to follow the codex and thus create evidence if they
fail as they had to report it, and finally there may be to watch them....

The Many! The Blue! The Ultramarines!

Yea whatever. They are a bunch of chapters, but they do not control the IG nor the Navy, nor the AM, nor the assassins. The imperium has been structurally designed to minimize the imapct of rebellions, and on the whole it has succeeded gloriously with that, having survived for 10,000 years or 10 times any empire before that.

Having said that none of what you proffer is heresy.

Pragmatically, as noted the UM are loyal, and have no reason to rebel, nor does the Imperium have a reason to get uppity with them. Maybe if Bookboy wakes up and says I'm Da New Emprah! (in which case he's insta dead from the assassins guild or the GK battlebarge that appears and blasts him after presciently seeing ahead of time he's going to do so - Ward Fu: one must use his fluff against him!).

HAHA Bookboy funny. If Guilleman wakes up he is insta dead anyways, the High Lords would have to perceive him as a threat because who knows what ramifications his awakening would cause.

ON the positive when the Imperium does break up, if Ultramar territory is functioning that might be the nucleus for the new Imperium to expand outwards again.

The Imperium may be designed to reduce rebellion, but we'll never know how effective it is, considering those obstructive Vogons known as the Administratium.

Also, the UltraMarines are pretty much as powerful as you can get in the Imperium, and pretty loyal to boot. They're less like watchmen and more like guard dogs.

1hadhq wrote:The Ultras have a "ward"-save against everything

I doubt the Ultras are able to command other forces of the IoM.
But they also may have the contacts to achieve more than most of the secretive chapters.

Plus, whoever believes in this 'spiritual liege idea' of M.Ward ?

The would still have to have their geneseed controlled by the tithe, still have to follow the codex and thus create evidence if they
fail as they had to report it, and finally there may be to watch them....

If you take the spiritual liege thing a little out of context you can see it in a different light. Ultramarine geneseed is used in the majority of the chapters out there and many chapters still have ties and pledges to the Ultramarines themselves. The Mortifactors honored an ancient pact with the Ultramarines to defend a system from the Tyranids. So the spiritual liege thing is poorly worded, more like a highly regarded Chapter Master, one that is embraced rather than seen as a rival. This hardly applies to other Legion descendants as Dante was voted to lead Armageddon by his peers and so on.

As the the OP: The Ultras having their own system/world is not uncommon amongst Astartes. The Imperium is vast and the governments vary. The Tyranids are a constantly evolving threat and as such continue to adapt and experiment with tactics and biomorphs. It would not be unreasonable for them to go after someone who was able to pierce its veil. Ultras were in command of Zeist because they were the dominant force there and they were first response. The Codex is more than a book of tactics, it was a way of ensuring that betrayal on the scale of Horus' would be near impossible to repeat by dividing ALL Imperial forces and it is also wisdom akin to Sun Tzu's. Roboute Guilliman's actions were as a military should function, the Warmaster gave orders and he followed them. The Emperor had no suspicion of Horus so why should Guilliman? There were far more devious Legions and Legions who failed to reinforce Terra than the Ultramarines. Lion El Johnson waited to see who would win. In the end, only 3 Loyal Legions were present at Terra out of nine, but it is always the Ultras who are remembered as not being there. So I ask, why should the Ultramarines be watched?

The whole Astartes system is flawed, you have 1 million super warriors running around the Galaxy doing basically whatever they want without any real supervision or oversight. Only the Grey Knights and Deathwatch have really integrated into the Imperium. It's no wonder revolts like the Badab War arise.

those 1 million super warriors are split into a thousand factions that happen to be in many cases rivels.


it's unlikely that several chapters band together to rebel. and even then, they are easily crushed by the IG, Inquisition, and loyal Astartes.

Grey Templar wrote:
it's unlikely that several chapters band together to rebel. and even then, they are easily crushed by the IG, Inquisition, and loyal Astartes.

I wouldn't say the Badab war was easy, nor was it a Crushing victory, the conflict lasted 8 years. A victory sure, but Huron Blackheart still leads a large host of renegades.

NagothDaCleaver wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
it's unlikely that several chapters band together to rebel. and even then, they are easily crushed by the IG, Inquisition, and loyal Astartes.

I wouldn't say the Badab war was easy, nor was it a Crushing victory. A victory sure, but Huron Blackheart still leads a large host of renegades.

I think that deals more with the way that force was applied to the problem. If they had dedicated a larger contingent of loyal Astartes to dealing with it initially, then they would have curbstomped the renegades.

Your point is well taken, though, and I think that's the real crux of the problem. If you had a venerated faction like the Ultras go rogue (not arguing the likelihood, just illustrating a point), and they weren't OTT about it, you'd have a real problem on your hands. Questioning their loyalty wouldn't get much initial traction, while the rebellion was building momentum. Would be much worse than the Badab War, or really any rebellion since HH.

Huron didn't just have a couple of Chapters. he also had an army of normal humans and was well dug in.


most renegades won't have the time or the desire to dig in.


staying mobile is the best way to keep free of the IoM, stay still and they will find you.

Grey Templar wrote:Huron didn't just have a couple of Chapters. he also had an army of normal humans and was well dug in.

I agree, but, if the Ultra Marines decided to secede from the Imperium, they would have WAY more than a couple chapters join them and many millions of human soldiers and navel officers.
Hate Matt ward all you want, but the Ultra Marines have always been revered because they are the originators of so many successor chapters and the defenders of the Ultramar Systems.

tavoittamaton wrote:If you had a venerated faction like the Ultras go rogue (not arguing the likelihood, just illustrating a point), and they weren't OTT about it, you'd have a real problem on your hands. Questioning their loyalty wouldn't get much initial traction, while the rebellion was building momentum. Would be much worse than the Badab War, or really any rebellion since HH.

Exactly

NagothDaCleaver wrote:

I wouldn't say the Badab war was easy, nor was it a Crushing victory, the conflict lasted 8 years. A victory sure, but Huron Blackheart still leads a large host of renegades.

Hmm well 8 years is pretty quick for the Imperium, and were it not for the presence of the Maelstrom at his back it would be unlikely Huron would've escaped quite so easily. Your right in it not being easy but in the sense that 2 of Hurons most powerful allies the Lamenters and the Mantis Warriors realised their error in the end it was a pretty decent outcome. The point about the Lamenters and Mantis Warriors should illustrate that they wanted no part in the actual rebellion against the IoM it was just about Honour (certainly with the Lamenters they only sided with Huron because he treated them as honoured brothers rather than the cursed jinxes the rest of the IoM sees them as) Once it became clear that Huron had gone to far they retracted their support and were deemed untainted but requiring of penance.

My point is that although the Ultrasmurfs may well get huge support should they rebel, much of it would fall away if it turned out they had turned to Chaos.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:Hmm well 8 years is pretty quick for the Imperium

8 years is definitely not a quick engagement for the Imperium. Crusades have been over faster than that.

That may be true but on the whole the Imperium can take years to even assemble a force for a planetary invasion, against a well entrenched, force supported by several astartes chapters I reckon 8 years isnt bad going. Do those 8 year crusades include the time to organise, supply and get there prior or just the length of the actual combat engagement?

That's assuming the 8 years included that. If it was 8 years of solid fighting, that's definitely a long time for the Imperium to win or lose a war.

Ehm.... no?

The Crusade to reclaim the Jericho Reach is now entering its... second century? Third? I'd have to be at home to have Deathwatch on hand to double-check but... no, actually, 8 years is an insanely fast prosecution of a war effort for the Imperium, unless they're just pacifying a single rebellious planet with only PDF troops dirt-side to resist the IG juggernaut. That's hardly a war at all by Imperial standards.

They're still fighting the splinters of Hive Fleets Leviathan and Behemoth, centuries after first contact. The Sabbat Worlds Crusade consumed most of Gaunt's adult life, though the novels only highlighted a selection of stories to be told from the entire conflict. By the time

The situation on Tranch in the Calixis Sector, for example, is a civil war now almost a century old. Most of the fierce fighting has ended, but there are still pockets of resistance with occasional flare-ups. The Sector IG uses it as a training zone for urban combat before cycling their people out and shipping them to the "real" war-zones or, in the case of a few unlucky regiments, to the far-off Jericho Reach Crusade.

Will the Ultras ever go rogue? From a real-world perspective, of course not. They are GW's favorites, and the closest thing to protagonists that 40k has.

From a fluff perspective? Anything is possible. A chapter master could be corrupted by exposure to Chaos, or just get too big for his power-armored britches, and decide to secede from the Imperium. Would it go well? Probably not. Would it be freaking awesome, and greatly beneficial to the game? You bet your bolter it would.

The fluff is in stasis. Stuck in the 41st millenium, the ultras will never go rogue since there is no future.

If you take the spiritual liege thing a little out of context you can see it in a different light. Ultramarine geneseed is used in the majority of the chapters out there and many chapters still have ties and pledges to the Ultramarines themselves. The Mortifactors honored an ancient pact with the Ultramarines to defend a system from the Tyranids. So the spiritual liege thing is poorly worded, more like a highly regarded Chapter Master, one that is embraced rather than seen as a rival. This hardly applies to other Legion descendants as Dante was voted to lead Armageddon by his peers and so on.

The Blood Angels and Dark Angels all have some degree of control well beyond their own chapters, Dante was able to call in virtually all the BA successor chapters on the Assault on Baal and every DA successor Chapter Master swears fealty to the DA Chapter Master. Those two chapters are not that different from the Ultramarines in being able to call upon greater forces.

the Ultramarines power is more of a buddy thing.

the BA and DA are alot more close knit with their successors as they share some major traits(the Red Thirst and hunting the fallen respectfully)