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Not sure if this belongs in army lists, because while it does contain an army list, It's an excercise in character, with general musings across codexes as to what would emphaise the character best. I want to take an intersting army to throne of skulls at the end of the year. Please note - the army lists are examples of what could be done with each codex, here is not the place to discuss viability and force composition! They're just examples!

I've got my homebrew Knights of Praxis chapter. Minimal background until I find the right codex to base them on. Essentailly they're loosely based on the folklore knights of the round - not so much crazed religious templars as chivalric fuedal lords, with the chapter drawing on the retinues of the planets various noble houses for recruits. I want tons of character. Now, I could use the vanilla codex rules, but that would mean that apart from an interesting paint job, they'd still act like vanilla marines. No interesting on the table quirks. So I'm going to try out a few different lists across a few codexes and see which one works best.

First up - Spacewolves. There's a lot of scope here, thanks to the way in which units can be divided up. Sagas are also a good way of adding character, provided they're used to dictate the way in which a unit is played, as opposed to just beefing and buffage.

HQ

As good an excuse as any to include heroes. Leaders of the pack rules, allow me to emphasise people of fame and notoriety, a similar theme to the legends of great knights, St george etc. Definite win. The fact that I can mount a leader on a beast is also a win point. Knights need mounts! It's the law! There's a couple of ways I can go with this.

Mounted Knight Lord and retinue - Using the rules for thunderwolf cavalry. Good basis for conversion to another beast.

Knight hero on foot - making good use of the sagas, I can stick a whacking great thunderhammer on him, give him a wolfguard equivalent retinue and make hima slayer of nasty beasties.

Merlinesque Character and retinue - Rune priests, thier powers lean towards the force of nature aspect, quite like how I envision someone like merlin to be. A melin type character and his court of shamans might be an interesting way to go. Need to look at the BRB to see if I can form 4 independant characters into a group though.

ELITES

Again, some good rulesets.

Scouts can quite easily become Knights Errant - trying to prove themselves before joining the retinue of thier lord.

Lone wolves can easily become questing knights, the fluff is already there, thanks to "beastslayer" and "a glorious death" rules.

TROOPS

Troops are Fairly straightforward. Each Unit can come from a noble house, with the corresponding noble acting as a wolfguard in the squad. Blood claws could be men at arms, eager to serve, and the more skilled grey hunters can easily be the nobles better trained relatives and kinsmen. Dedicated transports can actually belong to each house, and the variable unit sizes can be used to represent larger, establisheds houses of renown, or smaller, newer noble houses whose members have only recently been inducted.


FAST ATTACK

I don't really want to use bikes, or speeders, as they're a bt vanilla, and it's quite flimsy to treat them as a unit of cavalry. Thunderwolves however do fit the bill, and the equipment available is fitting for a mounted lords retinue of knights.

Skyclaws are a bit trickier. As the troop equivalent is a unit of lesser skilled men at arms. I don't know why the noble house wouildn't equip the noble and his kinsmen instead. I suppose a noble could lead his men at arms in jump packs at a stretch, but common sense would say that he'd be standing with his kin.

Packs of hunting dogs fit well with noble houses, so fenrisian wolves are in.


FAST ATTACK

Thou shalt not make use of longfangs - I want to ignore this unit, as a lot of people go spacewolf just for the division of fire amongst a crapton of rockets. They just don't fit the bill.


Okay, so what about a list?

HQ

Knight Lord whatshisface (Wolf Lord)
Mounted (Thunderwolf Mount), Talisman thingy (wolf tail talisman) Legendary Blade (Frost Sword)
175pts

Noname the dragonslayer (or some such name for as slayer of spikey beasties) (wolf Guard battle leader)
Saga of the beastslayer, Thunderhammer, Stormshield, Jump pack
165pts

Elites
Questing Knight (Lone Wolf)
Storm shield, Frost Blade
80pts

7 Assorted Nobles (Wolfguard) - Some of these fellas are part of the slayers retinue, the others are standins for heads of household.
3 with powerfists (Nobles) 4 with jump packs.
286pts

Troops
8 House Durant Kinsmen(grey Hunters) - Rhino, Melta - 160pts (one of the nobles leads the unit)
10 House Durant Bondsmen (Bloodclaws) - Rhino - 185pts
10 House Krast Kinsmen (Grey Hunters) - 2x plasma guns, rhino - 205 pts (joined by another noble)
10 House Rienne Kinsmen(Grey Hunters) - Plasma and melta - 165pts (joined by the final noble)
15 House Rienne Bondsmen (Bloodclaws) - 2x flamer - 225pts

Fast attack
4 Mounted Knights (Thunderwolf Cavalry) -204pts (Join the knight lord as retinue)

Army Total = 1846

I plan to conveniently "forget" the rules for acute senses.

More general musings to follow.

Interesting ideas, I will watch this thread with intrest.
And I think you could get away with Acute senses-didn't knights have to be expert hunters or somesuch?

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:Interesting ideas, I will watch this thread with intrest.
And I think you could get away with Acute senses-didn't knights have to be expert hunters or somesuch?

I imagine so, but I think the spirit of the rule is representative of the canis Helix. I don't want to take advantage of any rules that aren't in the character of my chapter. Hopefully that way people will be more receptive to an army full of "counts as"

I had a go with templars. All I got was, well, templars. Maybe it doesn't translate so well.

Templars really ARE frothing fanatics I suppose- they don't do the classical knight thing as well.
I think it could be good, but I am curious as to how you're going to model space marines on horses. They'd want to be effing massive.

A good point. And I would have to agree with you about the Templars-they can only really do one theme that of crusading/Teutonic knightly orders.
I think personally that you should go with the Wolf idea, as with the possible exception of a 'mounted' Ravenwing force I stuggle to see how else this could be done. Still, I will admit you have drawn me in; it will be interesting to see where you take this next.

I respect this.
The fact that you will narrow down your chioces for character of your chapter.

I feel you've done well in thinking this through.

Good luck and I like how this is so far.

Da Boss wrote:Templars really ARE frothing fanatics I suppose- they don't do the classical knight thing as well.
I think it could be good, but I am curious as to how you're going to model space marines on horses. They'd want to be effing massive.

They don't do the classical, Renaissance/Arthurian Knight well.

The real world Knights and their ties to the Church, they do that just fine

Phayse, you might want to look at the two Dark Angels Heresy-era novels "Descent of Angels" and "Fallen Angels" for some ideas here.

The description you gave matches "The Order" that the Dark Angels used as the basis for their Chapter pretty well.

Cheers chappies.

For mounted knight style units, I was thinking of something alien to match up to the thunderwolf rules. I need to use something that has enough GW in it to be playable at TOS. Thinking of knocking up a picture card to take along, so people can reference a unit and see what it counts as.

The main thing is getting across on tournament day that it's not a list that exists to take advantage of a ruleset, so I really need to think about having units that are both characterful, and still enjoyable facing on the battlefield.

I'll see if I can track down those novels.

EDIT - descent of angels - The opening paragraphs sum up the background I had in mind. Seperated from terra, redevelopment of culture, I want the population of Praxis to be generally more aware than your average imperial planet. Heraldry was to be attributed to the pursuit of the ascetic virutes, and the chaper, having been drawn from the populace as the years wore on is supposed to include warriors how are also artists, scientists, poets and philosophers with a grasap of technology untainted by the mechanicus. In a bit of a twist, I'd quite like them to have been completely and utterly battered once the imperium came back into contact and found thier presence to be unwelcome by the populace. Only seems fitting for a chpater that's deviated so far from the ideals of it's creation.

EDIT - It's exactly what I had in mind!

THANKING YOU SIR!

If you really think about it it is perfectly possible to make any codex into what you want.

I REALLY like the way your doing this, picking a Codex on what is Fluffy and not what is Competitive.
On that note I'd say Codex/DA could do a good all mounted list that seem like they would be fluffy.

I have to admit, I haven't laid hands on a DA codex yet, so I've no idea if I;ll be able to represent them in the manner I'd like to.

I don't want to hang too close to the idea of a bunch of mounted warriors though, I want to draw on the whole background, questing knights, noble house and their men at arms, the whole shebang.

It's not so much about fluff, as sticking close to the idea I have in my head. I'm not one for massive backgrounds etc - I'm not much of a writer, and don't want to cheapen my chapter with badly written background, but when I've done some more thinking, I'll try and flesh it out a little bit. I've already got a lot on my plate, what with Brushbane and the challenge thread(which has been well and truly backburnered at the moment, much to my disappointment), but I aim to have gotten somewhere in time for octobers tourney.

For the time being though, I've gotten a lot out of the Descent of Angels Novel. Grabbed an ebook of it and currently devouring it. About halfway through now. I do enjoy how it explores reactions to change and progression from all sides, so it's quite useful in filling a few of the blanks I've got about the chapter background.

Couple of ideas for HQ units. The wolves codex is once again fantastic for providing these. The special characters in particular are really quite flexible. Most of thier special rules add a lot of character, without being wolf specific.

First up, the court of the Sage.

HQ (455pts)
Seer - (Rune Priest) (100pts)
Bolt Pistol, Living Lightning, Power Armour, Runic Weapon, Thunderclap
Seer - (Rune Priest) (100pts)
Bolt Pistol, Living Lightning, Power Armour, Runic Weapon, Thunderclap
Seer - (Rune Priest) (100pts)
Bolt Pistol, Jaws of the World Wolf, Murderous Hurricane, Power Armour, Runic Weapon
Sage - (Rune Priest) (155pts)
Bolt Pistol, Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Living Lightning, Master of Runes , Power Armour, Runic Weapon, Thunderclap, Wolf Tail Talisman

There is no doubt that 455 points for four models lacking any real sv++ is ridiculous. But to be honest, the whole idea is to step away from the boundaries a little. Ok, a lot in this case, but I still think that plonking a merlinisque character and his retinue down is full of win. Enormous applause if they manage to stay alive to do something. I steered clear of Njal. While his storm skill is nice, it's a little too close to appearing as if the codex is being used for the purpose of WAAC.

Next up, Master of the houses - the big cheese. The leader of the council of houses. Super stupid points values ahoy!

HQ (870pts)
Master of the Houses -(Logan Grimnar) (275pts)

The Triumvirate
Triumvirate (Wolf Lord) (185pts)
Chainfist, Frost Blade, Saga of the Beastslayer, Terminator Armour
Triumvirate (Wolf Lord) (195pts)
Saga of the Warrior Born, Terminator Armour, Wolf Claw, Wolf Claw
Triumvirate (Wolf Lord) (215pts)
Saga of the Bear, Terminator Armour, Thunder Hammer, Thunder Hammer

Lareg battles only at that points value. But his living legend is truly representative of the mythical knights. The triumvirate will be fleshed out a little, but the basics are that they function in the same role of the Lord Cyphers of Caliban. Upholding tradition, advising the big cheese. I gave each one a suitably fitting saga, and equipped him accordingly, so while it isn't a sensible equipment loadout, it does help with the fluff. You've got a mighty slayer - chose frost blade instead of a thunder hammer just because it seemed to fit better. You've got a born warrior, decked out with claws to emphasise the saga, and you've got a hulking great giant of a man, who loves his hammers. 21 attacks on the charge plus a couple extra for one or two of the loadouts.

That's going to ruin anyone's day!

Below these guys in the great council of houses are the council members themselves. Each region on praxis contains several noble houses. The house govern thier own regions, and a kniight lord, an elected representative (usually a knight of some renown) oversees the whole thing to make sure that as well as individual houses interests are served, that any actions taken are for the benefit of the entire region. While knights arer recruited from the noble houses, once an individual becomes a knight, those ties are severed. They cease to be a noble and instead become a knight lord.

Example HQ choice - Knightlord and noble retinue - 1 knight lord and the head of each each household under his supervision.

HQ (145pts)
Knight Lord (Wolf Guard Battle Leader) (145pts)
Power Armour, Saga of the Beastslayer, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Wolf Tail Talisman

Elites (252pts)
Retinue (Wolf Guard Pack) (252pts)
Noble (Wolf Guard) (63pts)
Frost Blade , Power Armour, Storm Shield
Noble (Wolf Guard) (63pts)
Frost Blade , Power Armour, Storm Shield
Noble (Wolf Guard) (63pts)
Frost Blade , Power Armour, Storm Shield
Noble (Wolf Guard) (63pts)
Frost Blade , Power Armour, Storm Shield

Bit of a vanilla loadout, but it's just to illustrate a point.

Wolf Guard units can split, so they make the best choice for nobles in order to lead thier houses into battle. While the Househgold heads accompany the knight lord, further nobles from the house could be added to the wolfguard squad, representing sons, nephews or cousins. These would lead the kinsmen(grey hunters) and men at arms (blood claws) into battle.

The idea is lifted from mechwarrior, where each family owns and maintains it's own suits of armour and relics. The knights haven't been a reall chapter for hundreds of years - more background will include a bit more on how the became cut off from the imperium after the horus heresy, and that operating the chapter using astartes principles was untenable due to the scarcity of resources available, and the pressing conerns of protecting their only recruiting world. Knights can be inducted in the same way as a typical space marine, through the recruitment of children, implantation etc to create a true astartes, but the nobles do woudln#t recieve a geneseed. This is detailed in the creation of the dark angels in the black library novel "Descent of Angels" where those who were unable to recieve geneseed were still able to join the legion - recieving surgical and genetic augmentation.

Thusly the only true astartes would be the questing knights (Lone Wolves) and the Errant knights (wolf scouts) Everyone else is surgically modifed to varying degrees, which explains why nobles, while not marines, are able to use and maintain thier own sets of power armour, as are the men at arms, who use a bloodclaws statline - diminished reflexes in WS and BS because of the lesser degree of modification and the lower spec of the armour they can wear because of this.

The forgeworld range of marine armour is useful here. Knights will be wearing the new types, more appropriate for true astartes, while the nobles will be wearing older variants like the crusader, which will represent a suit of power armour that is designed to work with augmented humans. The Men at arms will use an older type again, maybe the Iron armour, which is representative of a powered suit and not as sophisticated as a true set of power armour.

Tricky bits now are to get working on some background. and start planning a few lists out. I want to stay as true to the character I've laid out as possible, while still providing a list that works for a tournament. This is going to be slightly trickier, as tournament lists obviously work, but if I went Melta/Melta/Melta all the way through the list, it'd bring it to close to just another standard tournament list, which would wipe out all the thought that's gone in so far. I need to find a way to bring enough of the right loadouts, but still retain some distance from a standard list. I want the character, but I'm not spending money for me and wifey to spend a weekend in nottingham just to llose 5 out of 5 games because the list doesn't work. I can achieve that at my FLGS!

I like the idea of a cultist force led by Alpha Legion...
With a couple of mutants mixed in...

Captain (Wolf Lord)

Sorcerer (Rune Priest)

Champion (Wolf Priest)

Alpha Legion leader (Wolf Guard pack leaders)

Heretic stormtroopers (Wolf Scouts)

Night Lord mercenaries (Grey Hunters)

Mutants (Blood Claws)

Captured enemy vehicles (Any vehices you care to choose)