Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Right, Thursday i witnessed (and with my mate, argueded against) The Changeling using his power on a unit INSIDE a Tank.

Paul, the user of said power, said he could use it on that target as he only needed Line Of Sight. And if Craig, the shooter who shot 15 Ork Shoota Boys who were inside an Open-Topped Battlewagon, was able to see AND shoot at him, then why couldn't his Changeling see and use his power on him!

For those who don't know, or are stupid, the Changelings power is as follows:

Glamour of Tzeentch.
This power can bbe used in the enemty shooting phase. Pick any enemy unit that is visible to the changeling and is about to fire. If the unit is found to be within 24" of the changeling, it is affected by his mind-altering mirage.

This is the only part that concerns the issue.

My question is, was Paul able to use this power, or am i just being a fool? As technically, you are UNABLE to target a unit inside a Vechicle and i think i read somewhere, that the guys are technically off board...

If he can, then this raises other issues, such as the Aura of Decay from daemons again, Doom of Malantais Aura of Power draining thing from the Nid codex and the Gauss Flux arc from the 'Cron codex.

Technically these are also not targeting a unit but rather enemy models in a set Range around that specifc model and do not need Line of Sight?

From the FAQ:

Q. Can psychic powers (like Fear of the Darkness) or
other special rules (Imperial Guard Officers’ Leadership)
and pieces of wargear (like Psychic Hoods) be used
from within vehicles by models that are being
transported?
A. As transported models are not physically on the table,
they cannot do anything (unless differently specified).
The only exception is firing weapons (and using psychic
powers and abilities that replace firing a weapon) from
one of the vehicle’s Fire Point or from an open-topped
transport. On the positive side, transported troops
cannot be targeted by the enemy (the enemy can of
course target their transport, and the passengers may
suffer consequences as a result).

So I would say no you can't use the power because the enemy is not visible to you.

+1 t0 TAK.

You can't draw line of sight to embarked units and need special permission to target them for most abilities.

Paul is right to feel miffed, especially when you take the extremes such as a large unit of orks riding about on a flatbed with no roof but being immune to gun fire. Unfortunately the rules don't correspond to the common sense in this case, probably for simplicities sake.

40k FAQ:

Q: Can Psychic Powers be used on a unit embarked on a transport?
A: For simplicity sake, the answer has to be a firm "No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit being transported".

Q: Can an embarked unit ever be the target of enemy shooting?
A: No. Only the transport vehicle can be hit.

For the record the Changeling ability is neither a shooting attack nor a psychic power. I agree thought with the conclusion that it cannot be used to affect the passengers based on the precedent GW set for similar abilities.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:From the FAQ:

Q. Can psychic powers (like Fear of the Darkness) or
other special rules (Imperial Guard Officers’ Leadership)
and pieces of wargear (like Psychic Hoods) be used
from within vehicles by models that are being
transported?
A. As transported models are not physically on the table,
they cannot do anything (unless differently specified).
The only exception is firing weapons (and using psychic
powers and abilities that replace firing a weapon) from
one of the vehicle’s Fire Point or from an open-topped
transport. On the positive side, transported troops
cannot be targeted by the enemy (the enemy can of
course target their transport, and the passengers may
suffer consequences as a result).

So I guess this means the Eldrad's Runes of Warding can't be used if he's in a Wave Serpent. Or does that work like a Sanguinary Priest bubble?

Does the Sanguinary Priest bubble still work because the model is not "using" it? Isn't it the Blood Chalice (a piece of wargear) that is being used to project the bubble?

puma713 wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:From the FAQ:

Q. Can psychic powers (like Fear of the Darkness) or
other special rules (Imperial Guard Officers’ Leadership)
and pieces of wargear (like Psychic Hoods) be used
from within vehicles by models that are being
transported?
A. As transported models are not physically on the table,
they cannot do anything (unless differently specified).
The only exception is firing weapons (and using psychic
powers and abilities that replace firing a weapon) from
one of the vehicle’s Fire Point or from an open-topped
transport. On the positive side, transported troops
cannot be targeted by the enemy (the enemy can of
course target their transport, and the passengers may
suffer consequences as a result).

So I guess this means the Eldrad's Runes of Warding can't be used if he's in a Wave Serpent. Or does that work like a Sanguinary Priest bubble?

Does the Sanguinary Priest bubble still work because the model is not "using" it? Isn't it the Blood Chalice (a piece of wargear) that is being used to project the bubble?

In your Blood Angels example the priest is inside the vehicle with a passive ability bubble and for affects like that you measure from the hull, in the quote the person is attempting to use an ability from outside the vehicle targeting people inside it. The Bubble does not require line of sight just within a certain distance as apposed to the changelings ability that does require it to see the target.

see page 66 in brb under embarking


as for eldrad I don;t know cause I do not have a copy of the Eldar codex

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
In your Blood Angels example the priest is inside the vehicle with a passive ability bubble and for affects like that you measure from the hull, in the quote the person is attempting to use an ability from outside the veichle targetting people inside it.

see page 66 in brb under embarking


as for eldrad I don;t know cause I do not have a copy of the Eldar codex

Okay, but you can't use psychic hoods from inside transports? This is new to me, if that is the case.

puma713 wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
In your Blood Angels example the priest is inside the vehicle with a passive ability bubble and for affects like that you measure from the hull, in the quote the person is attempting to use an ability from outside the veichle targetting people inside it.

see page 66 in brb under embarking


as for eldrad I don;t know cause I do not have a copy of the Eldar codex

Okay, but you can't use psychic hoods from inside transports? This is new to me, if that is the case.

I would say as the psychic hood doesn't require line of sight or that you be able to see the enemy, that you would be able to use it as long as the hull of the vehicle was in range.

BRB page 66:

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull

Psychic Hood on Page 56 of C:SM

Declare the you'll use the psychic hood after an enemy model within 24" of the librarian passes a psychic test.

By combining the two rules, and NOT inventing any rules to fill gaps:
1.) Psyker in Transport passes psychic power test.
2.) Declare you'll use the psychic hood.
3.) Check range to hull of vehicle.
4.) Proceed with Leadership roll off.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

puma713 wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
In your Blood Angels example the priest is inside the vehicle with a passive ability bubble and for affects like that you measure from the hull, in the quote the person is attempting to use an ability from outside the veichle targetting people inside it.

see page 66 in brb under embarking


as for eldrad I don;t know cause I do not have a copy of the Eldar codex

Okay, but you can't use psychic hoods from inside transports? This is new to me, if that is the case.

I would say as the psychic hood doesn't require line of sight or that you be able to see the enemy, that you would be able to use it as long as the hull of the vehicle was in range.

BRB page 66:

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull

Psychic Hood on Page 56 of C:SM

Declare the you'll use the psychic hood after an enemy model within 24" of the librarian passes a psychic test.

By combining the two rules, and NOT inventing any rules to fill gaps:
1.) Psyker in Transport passes psychic power test.
2.) Declare you'll use the psychic hood.
3.) Check range to hull of vehicle.
4.) Proceed with Leadership roll off.

Q. Can psychic powers (like Fear of the Darkness) or
other special rules (Imperial Guard Officers’ Leadership)
and pieces of wargear (like Psychic Hoods) be used
from within vehicles by models that are being
transported?
A. As transported models are not physically on the table,
they cannot do anything (unless differently specified).
The only exception is firing weapons (and using psychic
powers and abilities that replace firing a weapon) from
one of the vehicle’s Fire Point or from an open-topped
transport. On the positive side, transported troops
cannot be targeted by the enemy (the enemy can of
course target their transport, and the passengers may
suffer consequences as a result).


Sounds like, if you have to "use" it, and it's not a shooting attack/psychic shooting attack, then you can't do it. Unless it is a psychic power targetting the unit that the psyker is with.

I apologize I misread your post I thought you meant using one on a person who is inside a transport.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:From the FAQ:

Q. Can psychic powers (like Fear of the Darkness) or
other special rules (Imperial Guard Officers’ Leadership)
and pieces of wargear (like Psychic Hoods) be used
from within vehicles by models that are being
transported?
A. As transported models are not physically on the table,
they cannot do anything (unless differently specified).
The only exception is firing weapons (and using psychic
powers and abilities that replace firing a weapon) from
one of the vehicle’s Fire Point or from an open-topped
transport. On the positive side, transported troops
cannot be targeted by the enemy (the enemy can of
course target their transport, and the passengers may
suffer consequences as a result).

For some reason I can't find this entry in the FAQ. Which FAQ is it from? I'm looking at the most current FAQ here. http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620222a_40k_Rulebook_version_1_2.pdf

Guys, THAT ISN'T IN THE FAQ.


Edit: Ninja'd!

it isn't in the FAQ?!

Damn...

i've been had!!!

. . .

Bloodhorror wrote:*snip*

If he can, then this raises other issues, such as the Aura of Decay from daemons again, Doom of Malantais Aura of Power draining thing from the Nid codex and the Gauss Flux arc from the 'Cron codex.

Technically these are also not targeting a unit but rather enemy models in a set Range around that specifc model and do not need Line of Sight?

The Flux Arc still requires line of sight, fyi.

Grakmar wrote:

Guys, THAT ISN'T IN THE FAQ.


Edit: Ninja'd!

QFT.

Sorry guys you all have it wrong, the Changelings power does not "target" anything

"when the enemy unit fires, it must take a Ld test, if failed it targets a friendly unit in line of sight"

you are not targeting the unit inside the transport, IT is targeting another unit, this then activates the ablity.

It is not a shooting/psychic attack

However it requires LOS, which you do not have.

nosferatu1001 wrote:However it requires LOS, which you do not have.

yep it does, AFTER the unit is affected "the unit must target a friendly unit within LOS"
Now "who's" LOS is does not say, but i assume the Chanlings

Pick any enemy unit that is visible to the changeling and is about to fire. If the unit is found to be within 24" of the changeling

1. Not visible (the guys in the tank)
2. Techincally not on the board

2. is incorrect. You CAN measure to units in a vehicle, page 67

1 is the killer. they are NOT visible to the changeling, therefroe CANNOT be the subject of his rule.

ah fair play

so if i was to argue against his point in person...

I'd just say, the unit is not visible to you paul, please refer to page...?

Horror - Dont have the book to hand, but check the index for line of sight.


Look at it this way.
everything revolves around true line of sight.
So, with the changeling, can he see that unit?
Of course he cant, he cant see through a vehicle.

I generally throw the changeling in my army for most games, and this has never been an issue since ive never tried it (he should know better)

Runes of Warding for any Farseer, Eldrad or otherwise is always in effect so long as the unit is alive.