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Chimaera wrote:

Stuff about the pictures.

If GW do manage to win the case. The ramifications could be much bigger than CHS and have an impact on all other 3rd parties. This I imagine would not be favourable to a lot of poeple out there. If GW lose it could be open season on their product and I do not see how this benefits the players/fans/collectors of the game. It would just make it harder to get product out to those who want it and reduce profits again making things more difficult in a number of ways. While some may relish this thought I do not. Tearing down a great thing because you don't agree with some aspects of how GW release product, their product strategy, market product or are over controlling in some areas are not really solid grounds for damaging a company who produce a great product and yes I do not agree with some of their principles but that doesn't mean I want to see them ground into dust although I do like Dust Tactics

Once the horse has bolted there is no point closing the stable door?

As for most of the pictures, I agree with you. There are superficial similarities between the pics and many GW items, but that does not mean they were copyrighted. The terminator is a good example - a metallic robotic skeleton. Necrons were developed from the tomb king concept (which was derived from the done-to-death concept of undead mummies). But Undead IN SPACE didn't really cut it (like dwarves IN SPACE), so GW turned undead into skeletal robots. Add to that there is nothing protectable about a skeleton... The Space-Marine - Storm-Trooper crossover is again limited to 'they're space troops wearing armour' although I do believe the design of Space Marine helmets from RT-era beakie marines to now was heavily influenced by the Stormtrooper helmet.
I think the message you should take from all those pictures is not, 'look at what GW directly referenced and copied to put into their universe' but 'look at the huge pool of common ideas and concepts that everyone uses all the time in generic sci-fi settings'. Particularly the humanoid battlesuits - GW specifically said they were inspired by a number of anime shows when creating the Tau race, but name concept of 'battlesuit' is so generic that you can't find 1 single robot that Tau were based off. Which is why I find it hilarious that GW sued CHS over the Superheavy Assault Walker: because a) it can fit into any anime/futuristic universe, and b) GW has not produced any models, artwork or stories referencing anything remotely like the walker. The only possible, remote issue I can see with it is that he has painted Tau symbology on it if you look closely enough.


If GW lose, at the moment it looks like this will be because they can't file a proper lawsuit and refuse to disclose what products of theirs they believe have been copied. If they do get their act together and still lose, it will be because they have an unrealistic view of intellectual property law and were overstepping their bounds for the last number of years. We won't see them but shut down and flooded by 3rd party stuff: I'd wager that only about 10% of GW customers know CHS exists, and of them only about 10% would even consider buying something. And as soon as GW brought out a set of XX marine chapter shoulder pads, those sales would completely eclipse CHS sales. I think we're just going to get better service out of the 3rd party industry, whilst GW follows normal business protocol and files 'trademark with intent to use' for products they don't make yet.

Buzzsaw wrote:

plastictrees wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Again, this lawsuit is not about making changes to the website, it is about destroying the moulds and stopping the production.

I know that, but I doubt GW would have paid all that much attention if CHS hadn't named everything the way they had at the beginning. You notice that they're not suing everyone else.

They probably would like to do the others but CHS is their best chance for a start.

Yeah, lets jump to that conclusion for no reason at all. Those bastards, potentially suing all those other companies in our imagination.

Wait, I'm not certain I get which "bastards" you're referring to here, as you seem to be taking umbrage at the idea that GW is profligate with their litigation threats... which would be odd, considering the available evidence that they, you know, are profligate with the threats of litigation.

The evidence we have of them suing companies they haven't sued yet, which is what Treesong is talking about here. That evidence?

ph,

I don't think that the 'poor quality' is a core issue here. I feel that it's just another hook to hang their case on. Also I really think that this 'new customer' thing is a red herring. New customers tend to go to b&m stores for their purchases, I have yet to hear of a new player just buying figures and pieces off the net to start a game/hobby they've never heard of before. To qualify that, I feel that if you are aware of, and have been a wargamer, you are aware that firms like CHS exist and that they are not GW.

As an aside, GW used customer complaints as an issue in their case, did they ever provide examples?

I think that GW were looking for someone to make an example of CHS just made for the easiest target.

Shepherd, I believe the Kroot are named in RT.

Cheers

Andrew

ph34r wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:Wait, I'm not certain I get which "bastards" you're referring to here, as you seem to be taking umbrage at the idea that GW is profligate with their litigation threats... which would be odd, considering the available evidence that they, you know, are profligate with the threats of litigation.

A core part of GW's case is that the lower quality Chapterhouse bits confuse new customers due to them being named with GW IP.

If Chapterhouse did not use GW's names, then GW would have been less likely to start this legal action.

That's... not really related to the question that I was asking. I was making an inquiry based on potential lack of clarity with his pronoun. That lack of clarity being caused by his sentence, as I read it, implying that GW does not make a habit of recklessly asserting themselves against other companies. It is my belief that this is demonstrably incorrect, and that information to that effect is easily available, even in this thread.

To put that another way: GW engages in a pattern of overreach with regards to what IP they actually have.

Kanluwen wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Kroothawk wrote: Let's be realistic: If GW releases a tervigon kit, its sales will make all 3rd party tervigon sales look insignificant. Most people are not aware of 3rd party models. Of the few aware, not all like the models or dare to buy non-sanctioned models ("are they tournament legal?")

In my personal experience, it's normal and expected behavior for corporations and bullies of all stripes to be less concerned with the large piece of pie in their hands then with the forkful of pie someone else managed to get.

It's normal and expected behavior of pretty much every human being.

For an example, look at posts here in threads about X army getting something new. Almost inevitably, there will be a half dozen posts about "how unfair it is that X army gets this, while Y army doesn't".

It's not true, and your analogy is flawed. Games Workshop development is a zero sum game; for every army that gets an update, 12 didn't. There is finite developer time. It's less clear that there are finite wargaming dollars; privateer press doing well does not necessarily mean GWS is doing poorly.

Ouze wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Kroothawk wrote: Let's be realistic: If GW releases a tervigon kit, its sales will make all 3rd party tervigon sales look insignificant. Most people are not aware of 3rd party models. Of the few aware, not all like the models or dare to buy non-sanctioned models ("are they tournament legal?")

In my personal experience, it's normal and expected behavior for corporations and bullies of all stripes to be less concerned with the large piece of pie in their hands then with the forkful of pie someone else managed to get.

It's normal and expected behavior of pretty much every human being.

For an example, look at posts here in threads about X army getting something new. Almost inevitably, there will be a half dozen posts about "how unfair it is that X army gets this, while Y army doesn't".

It's not true, and your analogy is flawed. Games Workshop development is a zero sum game; for every army that gets an update, 12 didn't. There is finite developer time.

I think you misunderstood my analogy.

Developer time is not necessarily the same as the 'common complaints' we hear, such as "why is army X having this model release, when they have not been updated?".
The Nurgle Chaos Lord, for example, was one where I heard a lot of "Bwuhs?" from my local community.

It's less clear that there are finite wargaming dollars; privateer press doing well does not necessarily mean GWS is doing poorly.

Indeed.

Kroothawk wrote:

$pider wrote:

plastictrees wrote:Right, Aragorn Marks. Good for him, finding a steady income as a mini sculptor must be a constant challenge. It will be good to see what he can produce for GW.

Agreed, I liked most of the stuff he did for Privateer Press. Looking forward to see what he produces for GW.

Maybe a non-Oxgore first

See, this is an example how unproblematic and constructive things could work out, if both parties act rationally.
Now imagine for a moment how GW could increase Storm Raven sales by offering the Chapterhouse conversion kit in the next WD.
Or Space Wolves by offering the Wolf Rhino conversion kits.
Or Space marines by featuring an article on all Salamander kits including the Salamander Rhino, Land Raider, Drop Dod, heads, shields and shoulder pads.
Just imagine this for a moment. The universe wouldn't end.

/facepalm

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine-Infantry-Accessories/SALAMANDERS-SPACE-MARINE-SHOULDER-PADS.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/SALAMANDERS-RHINO-DOORS-AND-FRONT-PLATE.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/SALAMANDERS-LAND-RAIDER-DOORS.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/SALAMANDERS-TERMINATOR-SHOULDER-PADS.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/SALAMANDERS-ETCHED-BRASS.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/SALAMANDERS-VENERABLE-DREADNOUGHT-BRAYARTH-ASHMANTLE_BODY.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/SALAMANDERS-THUNDERHAWK.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/SALAMANDERS-THUNDERHAWK-TRANSPORTER-WITH-LAND-RAIDER__.html


http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/SPACE-WOLVES-RHINO-DOORS-AND-FRONT-PLATE.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/SPACE-WOLVES-ICONS.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/SPACE-WOLVES-LAND-RAIDER-DOORS.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/SPACE-WOLVES-TERMINATOR-CONVERSION-SET.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Etched_Brass/ETCHED-BRASS-SPACE-WOLVES-SYMBOLS.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/SPACE-WOLVES-VENERABLE-DREADNOUGHT.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/SPACE-WOLVES-MKIIB-LAND-RAIDER.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/SPACE-WOLVES-THUNDERHAWK.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/SPACE-WOLVES-THUNDERHAWK-TRANSPORTER-WITH-RHINOS__.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/SPACE-WOLVES-THUNDERHAWK-TRANSPORTER-WITH-LAND-RAIDER____.html


GW makes miniatures. It's their core business. Their subsidiary company, Forge World makes miniature component add-ons (and some miniatures). They have absolutely no interest in licencing Chapterhouse or any other small company to make add-ons, such as shoulder pads or replacement rhino doors, or anything else. People going on about how GW should just publish books are living in a fantasy land with no real idea about what they're talking about. The books are to drive miniature sales.

People thinking that the Chapterhouse suit will force GW to drop prices are also living in fantasy land. Competition in this are is called "Go play Warmachine. Or Warpath." Or use proxies. Scibor make plenty of Not-Space Wolves and Not-Templars. Sure, they cost a ton more than GW models, but there you go. Oh yeah, Warmachine figures cost more per model than GW figures (except in Australia!). There's competition for you...

I can't understand why people think they should licence out their IP so places like Chapterhouse etc can make replacements parts for any of the items that Forge World already make. Particularly with the inconsistent quality levels of many of these companies.

And I say this as someone who has bought quite a number of "aftermarket GW parts" by the current crop of resin makers, as well as previous incarnations of parts and "counts-as" figure producers for the past couple of decades. I also intend to purchase a couple of those Storm Raven conversion kits at some stage.

I think this analogy is best to describe how GW higher management feels and reacts.

GW higher management feels like the Kremlin during Cold War, being surrounded by hostile countries and having a potentially rebellious population. They start by openly attacking one of the most prominent "enemies" with the most brutal weapon they could think of, the US legal system. Their attack failed miserably, publicly showing their weakness. Now in fear of counterattacks, they reacted by enforcing the Iron Curtain, stocking up their military (IP lawyers) and enforcing more censorship and oppression for their own country, letting the Prawda (WD) being the only allowed medium of information. That the coorporation policy is focussed on maximising the profit for the higher management and massively extracting needed corporation resources into their own coffers while neglecting the interests of the development department, the workers and the customers, is only adding to the picture.

History shows that this strategy leads to a process of inner rotting and can only temporarily keep stability of the system. History also shows that if you get over the Cold War mentality, you have the option for a civil society build on cooperation, making it more effective as a side effect.

Hope this analogy is useful to understand the current situation.

Kroothawk wrote:Hope this analogy is useful to understand the current situation.

Maybe you're just trying to be clever, but how does the use of politically loaded terminology clarify anything? All you've done is present a totally subjective and very extreme personal take on something which is going on all around the world in all kinds of areas of business. GW management may have made a mistake, or this may have been a calculated risk, but using Cold War metaphors is unhelpful at best and inflammatory at worst.

Kroothawk wrote:I think this analogy is best to describe how GW higher management feels and reacts.

[one huge exaggeration of a story later]

Hope this analogy is useful to understand the current situation.

Gee, your point sure does make sense and GW sure does sound bad when you describe everything GW does in terms of the cold war.

Just like fething everything else sounds bad when you describe it as being the cold war.

Kroothawk wrote:I think this analogy is best to describe how GW higher management feels and reacts.
(snip)
GW higher management feels like the Kremlin during Cold War, being surrounded by hostile countries and having a potentially rebellious population.
Hope this analogy is useful to understand the current situation.

Sorry, that's a terrible analogy.

Chapterhouse are no more "prominent" than Scibor, Maxmini, et al. They just happened to:
1) Be using GW's product names in their descriptions
2) Get lucky and get Pro Bono representation.

Aside from that, it'd just be the same as their standard C&D operation that they've used against many others in the past.

Buzzsaw wrote:

plastictrees wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Again, this lawsuit is not about making changes to the website, it is about destroying the moulds and stopping the production.

I know that, but I doubt GW would have paid all that much attention if CHS hadn't named everything the way they had at the beginning. You notice that they're not suing everyone else.

They probably would like to do the others but CHS is their best chance for a start.

Yeah, lets jump to that conclusion for no reason at all. Those bastards, potentially suing all those other companies in our imagination.

Wait, I'm not certain I get which "bastards" you're referring to here, as you seem to be taking umbrage at the idea that GW is profligate with their litigation threats... which would be odd, considering the available evidence that they, you know, are profligate with the threats of litigation.

They are pretty free about sending out letters, most people fold when they receive one; Ultraforge got one for the plague daemon, Raging Heroes got one for a Lammasu head (even though it's a generic creature), Hasslefree had one for their slayers and chaos dwarf, and there are a heap of fan sites that have received them. GW don't like other companies making stuff that's compatible with their stuff or even looking like it - they are the strictest of just about any company about purely using only their figures in their games at every opportunity.

I don't think that they like companies like Scibor making swappable parts for Marines. If what is stated in this thread is correct, they won't release their Thunderwolves because other companies are making similar things, even though they apparently haven't got enough to sue them.

CHS used words that GW use, of all targets out there, they are the most prominent one to sue, if GW can't beat them then they have nothing on the others. But I highly doubt that GW 'like' them as seems to be claimed by some, or even as GW claim themselves...

In a free market, anyone willing to invest the necessary time and effort is entitled to the same opportunities we had when we started out. We welcome such fair 'competition' - in fact, we don't even think of it as competition because it all helps to build the hobby.

However, sadly, there are an unscrupulous few who try to take a shortcut to success by copying the design of our games and models and trading on the goodwill we've built up over the years - these people are counterfeiters.

So they like fair competition, but then conflate "copying game design" as counterfeiting. Do they really see CHS as counterfeiters? It would explain a few things. Counterfeiting is recasting, how is that anything like what many companies that have received C&Ds have done.

GW don't like 3rd party companies, they are forced to tolerate them because GW have a grossly inflated idea of their legal rights. I gather Hasslefree told them to get stuffed and they haven't been sued - because the case would be ridiculously tenuous. But GW still thought they could squeeze the little man. Remember, they want to 'build the hobby'.

This is the company that says...

This also means that we cannot allow tattoos as an acceptable use of our IP as a third party necessarily has to perform the "service."

Really?

They also say...

Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:

Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties.

Seriously??!

That's not "you can't bring conversions into our shop/tournament".

It's "don't convert with other models"

That is total and utter gak.

Now tell me that they are cool with 3rd parties, even those not making using their names for things. They clearly don't but they don't sue because they can't, because it's absurd. They know they are talking crap. So much for "building the hobby". Yeah, building the GW hobby because according to their legal page you can't even convert their figures with other people's models. That is their ideal world, everyone has GW pure armies even if those armies don't leave their own homes.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=3&aId=3900002&multiPageMode=true&start=4

I love the fact that there's a "like" button to click at the top of each 'legal' page though.

I think it would be pretty hilarious if GW could be sued for making models based on their own IP.

It WOULD have the benefit of meaning they have to produce a model for EVERY unit in a codex.

Exactly what i'm hoping will be the result of this. I very mcuh doubt they will go back to a single massive release for each new codex. but all they woudl need to do to prevent this int he futrue woudl be to reveal to the world that a model, even a concept model for a future release, exsists.

Essentially they need to provide previews and marketing for future releases.




This may well be a silly quetion but i dont have my "offical" codex to hand...is it me of have you slashed the points for the vindicator? If memory serves theyare listed at 150 in the GW codex with the same stats that you have listed, although admittedly you have added the siege shield as an option (YAY!!!!, now the rules match my models)

scipio.au wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:I think this analogy is best to describe how GW higher management feels and reacts.
(snip)
GW higher management feels like the Kremlin during Cold War, being surrounded by hostile countries and having a potentially rebellious population.
Hope this analogy is useful to understand the current situation.

Sorry, that's a terrible analogy.

Chapterhouse are no more "prominent" than Scibor, Maxmini, et al. They just happened to:
1) Be using GW's product names in their descriptions
2) Get lucky and get Pro Bono representation.

Aside from that, it'd just be the same as their standard C&D operation that they've used against many others in the past.

To be fair to Chapter House, they got legal advice on the use of trademark names, etc. before they set out their stall.

The weight of legal opinion is that GW cannot legally prevent a company from advertising a part "for use with Space Marines™" as long as the Space Marine trademark is correctly acknowledged by the company using it. Which CH do.

By that measure, CH chose to exercise their reasonable legal rights, and Scibor didn't.

We are 11 months into the case and GW still have not been able to make a clear accusation against Chapter House. This would seem to indicate that GW's legal position actually is weak.

ChocolateGork wrote:I think it would be pretty hilarious if GW could be sued for making models based on their own IP.

It WOULD have the benefit of meaning they have to produce a model for EVERY unit in a codex.

They used to (see HBMCs description of 3rd edition style 'model range dumping'). People still weren't happy then due to the huge tracts of nothing they got for their army between book releases. Then they went to waves for financial reasons, and now people moan that not everything is released at the start with the book.

Old saying of 'You can't please everyone'.

PP's continuous release schedule with 'waves' of updates seems to work quite well.

Not everything has to be monolithic.

-Loki- wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:I think it would be pretty hilarious if GW could be sued for making models based on their own IP.

It WOULD have the benefit of meaning they have to produce a model for EVERY unit in a codex.

They used to (see HBMCs description of 3rd edition style 'model range dumping'). People still weren't happy then due to the huge tracts of nothing they got for their army between book releases. Then they went to waves for financial reasons, and now people moan that not everything is released at the start with the book.

Old saying of 'You can't please everyone'.

No they didnt "use to" when they did huge releases in one lump sum serveral armies STILL didnt get every unit in the book they needed. THATS why they complained. Waves are ok, IF you get everything.

With PP's waves, it may take a bit, but I know that every jack, unit, attachment and caster in the book released WILL be out before the next book. Thats why it works.

However, finding said models in stock can be a bit of a challenge-keeping stuff in stock has always been PP's problem. But at least I can look online at worst.

sourclams wrote:PP's continuous release schedule with 'waves' of updates seems to work quite well.

Not everything has to be monolithic.

Now, some people may argue that Privateer has had a lot of trouble keeping up with that release schedule, but at the same time their release of new products has always been solid. It's been their back catalogue that they've had trouble fulfilling. For instance, I had to wait probably 3 months to find an Ol'Rowdy model for my Cygnar force, for instance, but my local game shop that's actually been stocking new products has had the new stuff in the day it comes out every time.

Now you can do the wave release method and still not release things or fall behind - Wyrd has had a bit of a problem with this, as they haven't been able to get everything from Rising Powers released before dropping Twisting Fates, which I think is probably bad form. But as long as they get them released within a couple years, its still not as bad as GW's idea of a 'good release schedule'.

The problem with what GW is doing is not that they're releasing things in giant waves, but that they literally don't release things at all, despite years going by from the release of the codex to the current date (in some cases). Now if you're one of those who says that the hobby is what is important above all else, that should matter to you, but clearly we've got enough people who want all the models their army is based around that they're willing to go out and buy other products that there is a demand for - and GW has had a pretty big opportunity to release the correct models or kits. That they haven't and someone else has stepped in to fill demand is capitalism at its finest. If you release a keyboard without a 'w' key, and someone starts producing 'w' keys that can be placed on your keyboard to restore functionality... well, that's supply and demand. Same thing here.

I have a second theory to posit for this situation.

What if GW's policy has not changed? Here are some past examples of this behavior:

This is an example of something that they later dropped entirely, but the policy of making some minis "conversion only" for years hasn't changed. I have rules that pre-date the release of Lord Commander Solar Macharius by many years. He wasn't the only special character without a mini to be released in the same edition as the rules- and not by a long shot. But then there were scores of units that didn't make it into mini form until the next edition of the game showed up.

I mean, look at how long it took them to release the plastic Drop Pods? Sure, they were first up with the 5th edition codex, but I know some groups that were using soda cans since the release of the 4th edition marine 'dex.

We didn't see minis for possessed Chaos Space Marines until the 4th ed book- the rules first showed up in the 3rd ed book. And it isn't like they ever released minis to play as Alpha Legion's cultists- or a slew of other special troop types.

I have an older Eldar Codex that has full rules for fielding exodites (things like Cold One riders etc.). It even has drawings of these dinosaur riding Eldar, but there were never any minis released. Many years later, they did release their Bright Lance minis- but it was like a decade later.

I created my own Sentinel mini because the old mini had gone completely out of production, and I didn't feel like proxying it anymore- and it was still several years before GW released their sentinel. They never did create an updated Imperial Guard Land Speeder (yes, I had rules for that for a long time).


My point is that just because GW isn't releasing some given mini doesn't mean that it is Chapterhouse's fault. Or Scibor's, Raging Heroes or anyone else's. Just because something is/would be popular doesn't mean that GW realizes this and is going to release that mini.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:

Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties.

Seriously??!

I've never really read through all of GW's legal stuff before, this quote is especially silly. Fortunately, it's not actually legally binding.

biccat wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:

Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties.

Seriously??!

I've never really read through all of GW's legal stuff before, this quote is especially silly. Fortunately, it's not actually legally binding.

Well no of course it isn't, but they say it all the same. I actually went to check the quote about "tattoos" but you could have knocked me over with a feather when I read that.

Really, when they obviously make stuff up it's no wonder that people can claim they don't know where the line should really be drawn.

I’ve got some conversion models which combine chunks from three or four different backgrounds as well as scratch-built parts.

odinsgrandson wrote:I have a second theory to posit for this situation.
What if GW's policy has not changed? Here are some past examples of this behavior:
(...)
My point is that just because GW isn't releasing some given mini doesn't mean that it is Chapterhouse's fault. Or Scibor's, Raging Heroes or anyone else's. Just because something is/would be popular doesn't mean that GW realizes this and is going to release that mini.

Well, we know that GW's policy changed dramatically end of May (the whole secrecy thing etc).
And we are not talking about miniatures never made, but miniatures ready and not released at the expected date due to a late decision).

Trasvi wrote:
As for most of the pictures, I agree with you. There are superficial similarities between the pics and many GW items, but that does not mean they were copyrighted. The terminator is a good example - a metallic robotic skeleton. Necrons were developed from the tomb king concept (which was derived from the done-to-death concept of undead mummies).

Um, no. Necrons first appeared in GW lore years before Tomb Kings did.

Necrons first showed up in White Dwarf 216 which was published in 1998.

Tomb Kings had their first army book in 2002. Prior to this, the closest thing to "tomb kings" that existed were mummies in the Undead Army Book. They had no "concept" before 6th edition WHFB when GW decided to separate Vampires ("wet undead") and Tomb Kings ("dry undead").

Tomb Kings had an army list in White Dwarf for 5th edition in issue #227. That was after Necrons were released for 2nd ed 40K but before their current look.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Tomb Kings had an army list in White Dwarf for 5th edition in issue #227. That was after Necrons were released for 2nd ed 40K but before their current look.

Haha...don't have that issue.

My point stands, though. It's hard to say that Necrons were a space adaptation of Tomb Kings when Necrons existed first.

My money is still on Necrons being a GW adaptation of the Terminator series.

The first Necrons were very Terminator like.

Kilkrazy wrote:

scipio.au wrote:
Chapterhouse are no more "prominent" than Scibor, Maxmini, et al. They just happened to:
1) Be using GW's product names in their descriptions
2) Get lucky and get Pro Bono representation.

Aside from that, it'd just be the same as their standard C&D operation that they've used against many others in the past.

To be fair to Chapter House, they got legal advice on the use of trademark names, etc. before they set out their stall.

The weight of legal opinion is that GW cannot legally prevent a company from advertising a part "for use with Space Marines™" as long as the Space Marine trademark is correctly acknowledged by the company using it. Which CH do.

By that measure, CH chose to exercise their reasonable legal rights, and Scibor didn't.

We are 11 months into the case and GW still have not been able to make a clear accusation against Chapter House. This would seem to indicate that GW's legal position actually is weak.

I'm not arguing any of those points, as they're all valid. Simply that using the GW names as directly as they have done on in their descriptions doesn't make them more "prominent" than others per se. Nor does the fact that they were fortunate enough to find Pro Bono representation make them more prominent than Scibor - although I'm sure the publicity of the case itself has done them wonders in terms of press within our little hobby. The thing is, regardless of whether GW own the copyright to the profile of wolf heads or dragon heads in relief or Maltese Crosses and Roman Numerals, it doesn't mean they're going to "officially licence" Chapterhouse or anyone else when Forgeworld can make things with that iconography for 100% of the $.






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Howard A Treesong wrote:

biccat wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:

Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties.

Seriously??!

I've never really read through all of GW's legal stuff before, this quote is especially silly. Fortunately, it's not actually legally binding.

Well no of course it isn't, but they say it all the same. I actually went to check the quote about "tattoos" but you could have knocked me over with a feather when I read that.
Really, when they obviously make stuff up it's no wonder that people can claim they don't know where the line should really be drawn.

Someone in the other thread mentioned that it was to cover their backsides legally from, say, Lucasfilm/LucasArts if someone were to start selling "Darth Vader Space Marines" on eBay and fo forth. Much like the "official" stance on Tattoos is that they're fine as long as no money exchanges hands, no-one there actually gives a crap, and half of them would think the
Khorne Icon on your shoulder is quite cool.


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Howard A Treesong wrote:The first Necrons were very Terminator like.

They even had a special rule "I'll be back". Not sure if it's still in their books, as I've never played Necrons.

scipio.au wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:The first Necrons were very Terminator like.

They even had a special rule "I'll be back". Not sure if it's still in their books, as I've never played Necrons.

They go even further back than that... there's a figure that's recognizably a antecedent of the Necrons in Advanced Space Crusade and Space Marine/Titan Legions, that went by the name of "Chaos Android" and of course the first destroyers were quite diffrent from the current robo-scarab centaurs..


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Howard A Treesong wrote:[
They also say...

Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:

Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties.

There's a bit of truth here, But GW has taken it and turned it up to 11 with their claim. It has do do with not copyright but "moral rights" which are a parrallel section of law preventing an artists's workd from beings modified/destroyed etc...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights_%28copyright_law%29

These laws are taken somewhat more seriously outside of the US, particularly in Europe and much more in regards to fine are - there's a version of it in the US but it's only availble to pieces that are signed,numbered and less than 200 in number.