Rumoured changes to GW release schedule because of Chapterhouse lawsuit

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**candy.man**

paulson games wrote:Items like the Tervigon were in GW material long before CH produced anything, therefore GW retains all of it's legal claim to make those items. (doubly so if CH is judged by the court to be producing "derivative works" of those)

If you take the time to review the items there's a bunch of that are in dispute within the case that GW has since released.

I'm sorry guys but this is a total chicken little panic situation, GW is simply not releasing items because they don't think they will see an adequate return for the investment to make those models. No matter what the cheerleaders say they are about making money and they don't care that the players have gaping holes in their lists.

+1 to this

This is the only plausible reason I can see as to why any kit is not being released. It has been proved time and time again that GW is first and foremost a miniatures company and quality rules and gaming come second. Heck it is this reason why we’ve seen so many SM releases and a lack of anything else during 5th edition. It is also one of the reasons why 5th edition has been pretty terrible as far as rules balance is concerned.

If this rumour does prove to be true, I’m treating this as typical corporate spin. Why should anyone be surprised? You should know by now that GW does not care about non loyalist factions.

**-Loki-**

Mantis840 wrote:Heres what I love about the whole thing:
If GW would have just put out all the models that their codex creators put in the books instead of playing games, pussy-footin around, and releasing only little bits at a time, then maybe complimentary companies wouldn't be having as big of an impact on the greedy mammoth as they are.

I think you should maybe read the thread. Specifically StraightSilvers posts. I think it's actually in the OP. Where he explains quite clearly why GW release waves now rather than 3rd edition style dumping of the entire range with the book. It's really a pretty simple concept why they do it. It's something that might be in your wallet right now.

**Howard A Treesong**

It's not like other companies had to rush to release their thunderwolf conversions. Months rolled by before others were released and never a peep from GW.

**Mantis840**

heh Loki I know exaclt why GW releases how it does , its like every other company in history, and it all boils down to Greed. Break things down to their simplist form and you'll find the root of the problem.

**infinite_array**

-Loki- wrote:
Mantis840 wrote:Heres what I love about the whole thing:
If GW would have just put out all the models that their codex creators put in the books instead of playing games, pussy-footin around, and releasing only little bits at a time, then maybe complimentary companies wouldn't be having as big of an impact on the greedy mammoth as they are.

I think you should maybe read the thread. Specifically StraightSilvers posts. I think it's actually in the OP. Where he explains quite clearly why GW release waves now rather than 3rd edition style dumping of the entire range with the book. It's really a pretty simple concept why they do it. It's something that might be in your wallet right now.

Funny, that. If GW had released certain models at the correct time, then maybe that certain something wouldn't be in his wallet, eh?

Anyway, this seems like a combinations of 25% pro-GW activity, 25% conspiracy theorist 'thread making', and 75% pure grox gak.

**-Loki-**

Mantis840 wrote:heh Loki I know exaclt why GW releases how it does , its like every other company in history, and it all boils down to Greed. Break things down to their simplist form and you'll find the root of the problem.

They're not a bunch of guys in a garage. They're a 130 million pound publicly traded company. Greed is a thing companies do. It's how they stay in business.

**Mantis840**

I agree but it's also the backfire that causes situations like this current one.

**kenshin620**

-Loki- wrote:
Mantis840 wrote:heh Loki I know exaclt why GW releases how it does , its like every other company in history, and it all boils down to Greed. Break things down to their simplist form and you'll find the root of the problem.

They're not a bunch of guys in a garage. They're a 130 million pound publicly traded company. Greed is a thing companies do. It's how they stay in business.

Remember, large companies are bad

Although I really dont give a darn. This is my mindset

"Do you have miniature X? No? Then good day dear sir!"

**Mantis840**

Bingo Kenshin

**Pyriel-**

See, this is an example how unproblematic and constructive things could work out, if both parties act rationally.
Now imagine for a moment how GW could increase Storm Raven sales by offering the Chapterhouse conversion kit in the next WD.
Or Space Wolves by offering the Wolf Rhino conversion kits.
Or Space marines by featuring an article on all Salamander kits including the Salamander Rhino, Land Raider, Drop Dod, heads, shields and shoulder pads.
Just imagine this for a moment. The universe wouldn't end.

One: They cant since that would be admitting they produced a crappy stormraven.

Two: they actually did something similar, it's on their website:

Nice timing too, the company suing us is using our products in their own advertisement, I'm pretty sure our legal will love this one.

**Kanluwen**

Pyriel- wrote:
Nice timing too, the company suing us is using our products in their own advertisement, I'm pretty sure our legal will love this one.

You consider that to be "their own advertisement"?

It's a photo from tournament results. Look on the lefthand side, where it says "Players".

Nice try though.

**Buzzsaw**

While there are some interesting ideas present here, I find many of the issues in the first post to be... difficult to square.

Kroothawk wrote:But GW seems to have made changes in their release schedule because of the lawsuit.
1.) A.o. Tyranid and Eldar releases are on hold until the legal issues are settled.
2.) Esp. the tyranid second wave including the tervigon kit will not be released as planned. GW will invent a new similar monster with WD rules and release it in that context.
3.) Thunderwolves might not be released at all.
4.) GW gets back to its single release schedule, with every essential unit released at the start, with only some characters following later. The Ogre Kingdom release is a perfect example for that strategy.

Anything that is predicated on "legal issues" being settled is immediately suspect, as legal issues in this area of law are rarely if ever settled, and even the instant suit could, conceivable, take years to reach the end.

Kroothawk wrote:Why? At first GW lawyers thought every name, concept and design mentioned in one of their books is per se protected and nobody may do a model based on that without their explicit permission. This proved to be wrong, because only models are protected, not ideas and concepts. Now GW lawyers fear that if they release Tervigons, Thunderwolves etc, the third party companies already doing these might successfully sue them. This is probably wrong as well, but the basis of GW's future strategies. Be aware that StraightSilver mostly presents GW's point of view (plus his own of course), so that the legal situation might be totally different in reality (maybe we have to wait for the end of the Chapterhouse lawsuit). Of course nothing here is officially confirmed by GW (only a hint at the new Tyranid monster), but I am convinced that these rumours are true.

I realize this is mererly a paraphrasing of another poster's semi-inebriated reportage, but... taken at face value, this suggests an almost pathological paranoia at GW, to say nothing of an almost insulting evaluation of the competence of GW's attorneys.

Kroothawk wrote:

StraightSilver wrote:...
GW do not essentially have a problem with third party products or companies that produce them and in most cases these companies enhance GW sales as you need GW kits to use them.

The majority of third party companies have also been very careful not to use GW trademarks, or step over the line with GW's IP.
...

However when a third party manufacturer starts selling Salamnder Shoulder pads, or Space Marine Black Templar Rhino doors they are crossing the line, but only to the point where GW would advise them to change their terminology on their online store and to stop using GW trademarks.

Unfortunately Chapterhouse flouted this, and even posted in the news section of their website that they were doing nothing wrong and that GW should essentially take them to court (I'm paraphrasing).

However that still wasn't the main problem with Chapterhouse.

Once they moved away from creating after market products compatible with GW kits and started producing original sculpts based on GW IP they crossed a line.

In terms of US copyright a concept or idea cannot be copyrighted, so the idea of a Doom of Malantai model, or a Tervigon, or a jetbike seer council weren't protected until the models were released.

When Chapterhouse beat GW to it by making these models it appeared it may affect future GW releases and on legal advice GW held back some of their releases until they could prove unequivecally that they had total ownership.

This of course will be decided in court, but in defence of GW Chapterhouse bought this on themselves, they were given the opportunity to comply with GW's requests, but chose instead to go to court.

...

As I say most of what I am saying is based on conversations with somebody who works for GW, and may just be his or her speculation or opinion but I originally posted this in the rumours section for that reason.

I just wanted peopl to see the bigger picture where the Chapterhouse lawsuit was concerned. I don't want to demonise them, I just think if they had gone down the same path as other third party companies they could have avoided the litigation, but they decided to let it get to court, which wasn't GWs intention, but they felt they had no choice but to protect their interests.

Again, I understand this is 3rd hand material, but if it is at all accurate, it reflects incredibly poorly on the quality of legal service offered to GW, to say nothing of their bizarre rationals.

Also, while I realize this is reportedly from the mouth of a GW partisan, it's a fundamentally irrational notion: "Chapterhouse flouted this, and even posted in the news section of their website that they were doing nothing wrong and that GW should essentially take them to court (I'm paraphrasing)", okay... so, CHS maintained that their actions were in keeping with the applicable IP laws, which they still maintain. GW then brings suit, and in the process, at least prima facia, lends credence to the position that they never had a defensible case to begin with.

So, CHS, convinced that they are in the right are engaged in a legal argument with GW. How exactly does this mutual assertion of IP rights lead to GW's (extremely legally questionable) release decisions? If GW's strategy requires that they receive deference beyond their applicable rights from their competitors, it seems a... poor strategy.

**Pyriel-**

Kanluwen wrote:
Pyriel- wrote:
Nice timing too, the company suing us is using our products in their own advertisement, I'm pretty sure our legal will love this one.

You consider that to be "their own advertisement"?

It's a photo from tournament results. Look on the lefthand side, where it says "Players".

Nice try though.

I see humor is lost on one like you.

Nice try though.

**raincity**

.

**H.B.M.C.**

Modded

**fire4effekt**

It still looks like a GW page, and dont their webmasters need to post the pics?

Rule 1 .
If Games-Workshop went under i would feel remorse, as CH wouldnt have anything to attach their kits to.

**Asherian Command**

Rule 1

**Kanluwen**

Pyriel- wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Pyriel- wrote:
Nice timing too, the company suing us is using our products in their own advertisement, I'm pretty sure our legal will love this one.

You consider that to be "their own advertisement"?

It's a photo from tournament results. Look on the lefthand side, where it says "Players".

Nice try though.

I see humor is lost on one like you.

I see that you're falling back to the refuge of someone whenever they're called on their crap.

Nice try though.

I don't have to try, Pyriel. You made the accusation. You are stating that it is advertising.

You made this same accusation once before when they pulled people's stuff out of their Flickr pool and one model out of an army had CH's Dark Angels bits on there and was uncredited.
I think you just don't realize how little information people provide on the models they put in that pool, and then you inexplicably expect GW's web guys to go up and down the Internet checking these pictures basically dumped into their Flickr pool versus every single third party out there.

fire4effekt wrote:It still looks like a GW page, and don't their webmasters need to post the pics?

And the pictures are usually either user submitted or taken by events teams. There's usually three or four lines of information tops about them, unless the army has been selected for a 'showcase' because of specific techniques or simply because it was generally agreed upon that it was really impressive.
1. The owner's name.
2. The army name itself( <Owner's Name Here>'s "Salamanders" in this case).
lastly
3. Where the photo was taken.

**RuneGrey**

The ideal that you can only copyright an actual model and not a description will have some interesting connotations for the rest of the industry. There's very few people who are actually going to try and horn in on another company's business - lets be honest, there are few minis companies that have as huge of gaps in releasing models as GW has had. But it means that the current GW release model just won't work - they can't afford to leave 6 months to year long gaps in their release schedule without even showing a model or demo.

Which basically means that the Privateer Press / Wyrd Miniatures release paradigm may well actually be the safest and most copyright secure method of scheduling new releases - if you can't get things out within a few months of people becoming aware of their existence in a new book, then you run the risk of good resin casters or 3d model creators being able to create their own version that you have to compete with.

Its change, and probably is what GW needs to shake itself up and make the game more appealing (alongside of other things, but that's not here nor there and isn't on topic). You'll either see new army books being completely released within 6 months of the book coming out, or (hopefully) we'll see a new 'campaign book' every six months with 2 or 3 updated units and models for each army. For Fantasy, that's 30 units created or updated every release - give it 2 years and you can update most of the older units that are having issues right now and slowly bring older factions up to date and make them more competitive. Would be nice to see, even if GW will never actually go for it.

**DarknessEternal**

So Chapterhouse is punishing the fanbase with their illegal business tactics. Great job guys, that'll win customers.

**H.B.M.C.**

Illegal business tactics? Punishing the fanbase?

You deserve an 'Internet Hyperbole of the Week' award for that effort Darkness.

I mean really...

Kan - Shoosh! What Pyriel was getting at was perfectly clear to the rest of us. Stop digging!

**ph34r**

H.B.M.C. wrote:Kan - Shoosh! What Pyriel was getting at was perfectly clear to the rest of us. Stop digging!

Was it? I interpret Pyriel's attempts/failures to make digs at GW the same way as Kan.

EDIT: And I wouldn't put too much stock in Pyriel's legal abilities. He tried to threaten me with legal action over PM once for posting on a forum

**Chapterhouse**

Entertaining read even if it has no truth to it..

Unfortunately all we have is an anonymous username with an anonymous source with a rumor at this point.

Straightsilver has many so called "facts" wrong about me and the GWs actions against us (and he is obviously biased as well). Curiously enough the only confirmed sources for this information is myself, our Attorneys and GWs Attorneys.

As far as I know both of those parties have not released ANY Hard Facts regarding what GW asked of my company in the past nor have they released any information regarding their continued actions or thoughts...

By all means, lets continue to get out the pitch forks and continue to sling mud based on nothing but heresay..

Kroothawk, I dont know if you were intentionally trying to cause a GAKstorm, but wouldnt it be much more correct to call this thread - "RUMORED Changes to GW release schedule because of Chapterhouse lawsuit"

Nick - Chapterhousestudios.com

**Pyriel-**

I see that you're falling back to the refuge of someone whenever they're called on their crap.

Keep digging GW fanboy.
I distinctly remember you running away with you tail behind your legs after failing to "prove" in the CHS legal thread that making shoulerpad shapes was illegal.
So much for your legal knowledge.

Nice try though.

Was it? I interpret Pyriel's attempts/failures to make digs at GW the same way as Kan.

EDIT: And I wouldn't put too much stock in Pyriel's legal abilities. He tried to threaten me with legal action over PM once for posting on a forum

Nah, just asked you for legal permission to expose your butthurt bs and forum bullying to some Swedish academics, you know your desperate antics would make great in house study material at the uni here.
you should thank me for asking your permission, I did that out of courtesy when I really am in no need to do so.

**AustonT**

DarknessEternal wrote:So Chapterhouse is punishing the fanbase with their illegal business tactics. Great job guys, that'll win customers.

I don't understand the random vitriol aimed at Chapterhouse. GW sued CHS, they attempted to bully yet another small studio trying to expand our hobby. I'm sure Tamiya is waiting with baited breath to sue Eduard for infringing on thier IP by selling photo etch kits specifically for thier model kits.
This entire thread is...no. This entire thread are ridiculous. We have no idea what GWs release schedule is, and now because of thier secret squirrel attitude it's worse than ever. If they were more open with what was in the works ahead of time perhaps I might lend credence to these rumors. As it is, GW started this mess with CHS if they are punishing thier customer base then it is in fact thier own fault.
At the end of the day this case will finally let every third party studio know where the line in the sand is. And they cant bully anyone else out of business with thier empty threats.
If you are angry because GW is refusing to release the Tyranid second wave firmly target your anger at GW, it's thier choice.

**ph34r**

Pyriel- wrote:Nah, just asked you for legal permission to expose your butthurt bs and forum bullying to some Swedish academics, you know your desperate antics would make great in house study material at the uni here.
you should thank me for asking your permission, I did that out of courtesy when I really am in no need to do so.

Hahahahahaha you are a psych major? Classic. I guess they teach you to throw slurs at people and insult them via PM in Sweden? What has my ancestral home come to. Here in America if you tried to base a serious paper on internet forum arguments you would be laughed at.

Though you are right, the 5 paragraph essay of vague threats you sent me was pretty reminiscent of someone not-desperate.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AustonT wrote:I don't understand the random vitriol aimed at Chapterhouse.

Well, for myself their employees forum harassment has been enough to drive me away from their business. I know the 8 people in my gaming group will never be purchasing Chapterhouse products. Luckily Forgeworld, Scibor, and MaxMini don't believing in harassing potential customers on internet forums.

**Pyriel-**

AustonT wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:So Chapterhouse is punishing the fanbase with their illegal business tactics. Great job guys, that'll win customers.

I don't understand the random vitriol aimed at Chapterhouse. GW sued CHS, they attempted to bully yet another small studio trying to expand our hobby. I'm sure Tamiya is waiting with baited breath to sue Eduard for infringing on thier IP by selling photo etch kits specifically for thier model kits.
This entire thread is...no. This entire thread are ridiculous. We have no idea what GWs release schedule is, and now because of thier secret squirrel attitude it's worse than ever. If they were more open with what was in the works ahead of time perhaps I might lend credence to these rumors. As it is, GW started this mess with CHS if they are punishing thier customer base then it is in fact thier own fault.
At the end of the day this case will finally let every third party studio know where the line in the sand is. And they cant bully anyone else out of business with thier empty threats.
If you are angry because GW is refusing to release the Tyranid second wave firmly target your anger at GW, it's thier choice.

It's pretty simple really and can be summed up with: haters gonna hate.
Just scroll through the thread and check posts like ph3ars, perfect example of bitter trolling, zero contribution to the topic at hand, just the urge to lash out blindly. You enter a thread just so spew a one liner "I-hate" sentence and then disappear while constantly lurking to make yet another jab at someone or something you hate (hence him being a candidate as a fun object of interest for a psychology class), but It's how the internet works for some you know.

This whole thread ought to be locked like it was originally since it is based on 100% rumors and hearsay and on top of that is about a topic that haters are bound to flock to like flies to a turd.
See, now I´m starting to get seriously pissed too and oh boy, we know where this will end up. Maybe I get a vacation for feeding trolls but then again I would get so much more sculpting done while on one...

**ph34r**

Pyriel- wrote:It's pretty simple really and can be summed up with: haters gonna hate.
Just scroll through the thread and check posts like ph3ars, perfect example of bitter trolling, zero contribution to the topic at hand, just the urge to lash out blindly. You enter a thread just so spew a one liner "I-hate" sentence and then disappear while constantly lurking to make yet another jab at someone or something you hate (hence him being a candidate as a fun object of interest for a psychology class), but It's how the internet works for some you know.

This whole thread ought to be locked like it was originally since it is based on 100% rumors and hearsay and on top of that is about a topic that haters are bound to flock to like flies to a turd.
See, now I´m starting to get seriously pissed too and oh boy, we know where this will end up. Maybe I get a vacation for feeding trolls but then again I would get so much more sculpting done while on one...

Yep, that sounds like an extremely factual, non-biased, and non-libelous post to me! I hate all those trolling one-linering----

Pyriel-, 5 minutes ago wrote:Keep digging GW fanboy.
I distinctly remember you running away with you tail behind your legs after failing to "prove" in the CHS legal thread that making shoulerpad shapes was illegal.
So much for your legal knowledge.

Nice try though.

Oops!

**Agamemnon2**

biccat wrote:
plastictrees wrote:How would Chapterhouse going under prevent anyone from receiving good quality kits?

Tru-scale stormraven kit. Wheeled IG conversion kits. Shoulder Pads. Storm Shields. Vehicle upgrade kits.

A number of products that GW doesn't produce would become unavailable.

But none of them are good quality, is the point I believe was being made.

**AustonT**

I guess if you've had a negative experience with them then that's defiantly reason enough kto steer away. Likewise Scibor will never see my business as I had some issues with him back when he "converted" models and used GW parts, GW names, and charge ridiculous prices. But I digress. We all have our reasons I guess.