Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well not really. if they released work in prgress shots, they'd have a defensible position because they've been making the models and the images were available publicly.

Saldiven wrote:

Brother Gyoken wrote:

army310 wrote:
Dude for real if GW did went away 40k would die. even though they have become greedy they have given us a great world to play in. And do you really think that the Chapterhouse would keep on making thier stuff for warhammer, no they would start making PP stuff because thats were the money would be at. Hate or love GW

Not true. There's tons of games that people play that have been out of production for years, some even decades. GW is not the hobby and to be honest... it's not even the be all, end all of 40K.

Seriously. I mean, how long has it been since Chess saw a rules update or a FAQ?

Lots of people still play the specialist games that GW hasn't supported for years.

Warhammer would only go up if GW went away.

If GW went bankrupt for instance a new company would jump on GW IP faster than a fat kid to a Smartie! First of all, at bankruptcy the value of the IP itself would be almost nothing; but the demand based on the current client base would be huge! This would allow another company to slide into a high demand product for nothing. They would be able to develop new models, books, etc. for far less than GW is charging.


If GW decided they want out; which lets face it the chances are 100x greater you'll be caught hog tied to a giraffe on the local high school with a lightning rod stuck out your ass that makes you cough up lil' pink ponies every time it gets struck by lightning. The demand would be apparent to any buyer with the intent to pic it up that they'd still want to push the product to see return as to not feel to strong a drop in sales it being a new owner ((as there is often a drop in sales just because a company has switched owners, stocks take big hits often when things like this happen; even Apple felt it.))


GW is no longer the blood of Warhammer, the IP that is now the blood of Warhammer; and GW knows this, especially now.


The sad part is, either way this case with Chapter House goes, the consumer is going to hurt for it. If GW loses, the product price goes up, and new product gets the freight train brakes turned on full stop. If GW wins, they gloat, prices go up, and start suing every other manufacture regardless of the product as few out there would have the cash flow to be able to fight the lawsuit. Chapter House is only this far because of Pro-Bono lawyers, whom would not step up to any plates on these cases if Chapter House fails here.

I don't think the value of the IP is necessarily that high.

GW still makes 99% of its money from selling models and rules. The licensing for the computer games and novels is icing on the cake, and you need the cake to put it on.

If GW went bust because they could not sell models and rules, it would be a big stretch for anyone to sell licences from the background, without the firm grounding of the wargames.

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't think the value of the IP is necessarily that high.

GW still makes 99% of its money from selling models and rules. The licensing for the computer games and novels is icing on the cake, and you need the cake to put it on.

If GW went bust because they could not sell models and rules, it would be a big stretch for anyone to sell licences from the background, without the firm grounding of the wargames.

While the IP value may not necessarily be that high at the moment. It is growing.

The computer games and the novels are opening it up further and I am sure FFG wouldn't want to sell 40k & Warhammer games under license if they felt there was no value to them because the IP was weak.

It wouldn't take that much to increase the IP value. A massive film agreement, figures like Star Wars, collectible card deal under Attax license and a LEGO products would probably seal the deal ummmm LEGO Speez Marines. I am sure GW see their IP as growing in value also and this is mainly their reason to defend it. Just because thay haven't exploited the IP fully yet doesn't mean they aren't going to at some stage in the future.

@Chimaera: I actually think that there would be a pretty decent market for, say, 4" or 8" action figures based upon the 40K universe. Something akin to the Star Wars figures from the 1980's.

Granted, getting a good, solid movie out first would help. Dunno if they'll ever do that.

Chimaera wrote:While the IP value may not necessarily be that high at the moment. It is growing.

You're confusing IP with licensing. GW pretty much only sells their IP. When you buy a model you're not buying it because it's a good quality model, you're buying it because of it's creative elements. Ditto for rulebooks, you don't buy them for the paper quality and editing, you buy them because of the intellectual property.

GW's IP is basically the core of the company. Ditto for any other miniature company (Reaper may be an exception).

biccat wrote:

Chimaera wrote:While the IP value may not necessarily be that high at the moment. It is growing.

You're confusing IP with licensing. GW pretty much only sells their IP. When you buy a model you're not buying it because it's a good quality model, you're buying it because of it's creative elements. Ditto for rulebooks, you don't buy them for the paper quality and editing, you buy them because of the intellectual property.

GW's IP is basically the core of the company. Ditto for any other miniature company (Reaper may be an exception).

The way I understand it is they are licensing 3rd parties to use their IP to make product. Same thing in my book. In effect the 40K universe is the IP as GW created it. The IP's value must be based on perceived value when converted into a commercial product.

Saldiven wrote:@Chimaera: I actually think that there would be a pretty decent market for, say, 4" or 8" action figures based upon the 40K universe. Something akin to the Star Wars figures from the 1980's.

Granted, getting a good, solid movie out first would help. Dunno if they'll ever do that.

A very credible mainstream theatrical release would unlock many doors for GW.

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't think the value of the IP is necessarily that high.

GW still makes 99% of its money from selling models and rules. The licensing for the computer games and novels is icing on the cake, and you need the cake to put it on.

If GW went bust because they could not sell models and rules, it would be a big stretch for anyone to sell licences from the background, without the firm grounding of the wargames.

I would dispute that merely at a guess, Im sure we can find out somehow, but the black library alone surely accounts for a huge amount of cash these days?

They have sold gak load of books and audio drama's, It must be in the tens of millions by now surely?

See... you start conjecturing on numbers or even pre-supposing a certain amount of people know about or take part in a specific IP and I start disbelieving. 10 million people are about what a show like the Sopranos normally got for viewership and it was very well known show. I seriously doubt sales from all 40k sources comes anywhere close to a number like that, even from a worldwide market.

biccat wrote:

Chimaera wrote:While the IP value may not necessarily be that high at the moment. It is growing.

You're confusing IP with licensing. GW pretty much only sells their IP. When you buy a model you're not buying it because it's a good quality model, you're buying it because of it's creative elements. Ditto for rulebooks, you don't buy them for the paper quality and editing, you buy them because of the intellectual property.

GW's IP is basically the core of the company. Ditto for any other miniature company (Reaper may be an exception).

Exactly, and IP is only worth its demand. One only has to look at sites like Dakka Dakka and BoLS to reinforce the point of how strong Warhammer itself is; then looking at how many private retailers are carrying IP, and then of course the GW stores and bunkers. A company would jump on Warhammer IP very fast if it became a cheap investment ((ie. if GW went bankrupt.)) but the double edge to that is, for GW to fail it has to loose all that support from the market that makes its IP so valuable now. Best case scenario is, GW runs into the ground with steady losses of NEW customers; and new company picks it up and revamps its gears to bolster new blood for the blood gods...

The idea that gw going bankrupt would be anything but bad for the game is laughable. You think he takes a long time to update codices now? What happens during the "restructuring period," where the new company figures out how to run its new investment? How many armies do you think they would keep, and how many would be discontinued while they consolidated their position?

Pray for a comprehensive change of leadership, sure. Don't pray for bankruptcy. It will only make things worse.

Guildsman wrote:
Pray for a comprehensive change of leadership, sure. Don't pray for bankruptcy. It will only make things worse.

That's not necessarily true, though.

Going bankrupt does not mean a business closes its doors any more than it means an individual suddenly dies after filing bankruptcy.

Bankruptcy allows a business to restructure their debts and obligations, potentially avoiding some, so that they can (hopefully) come out on the other side in a position more able to compete in the marketplace than they were before the filing.

{Not that I expect GW to file bankruptcy; I was merely pointing out that bankruptcy doesn't mean the end of a company. For example, the Six Flags corporation filed bankruptcy over two years ago, and I was at Six Flags Over Georgia three days ago, along with thousands of other customers.}

Oh, I know that bankruptcy wouldn't mean the absolute end of warhammer. But it would get dicey for a while, and I think that there are far less disruptive options out there.

Saldiven wrote:@Chimaera: I actually think that there would be a pretty decent market for, say, 4" or 8" action figures based upon the 40K universe. Something akin to the Star Wars figures from the 1980's.

I think that such figures were planned during the 90s, but were canned because GW did not want to play nice with other companies.

spaceelf wrote:

Saldiven wrote:@Chimaera: I actually think that there would be a pretty decent market for, say, 4" or 8" action figures based upon the 40K universe. Something akin to the Star Wars figures from the 1980's.

I think that such figures were planned during the 90s, but were canned because GW did not want to play nice with other companies.

And the Toy companies don't play nice with anyone.

All this talk of GW bankruptcy makes me really consider some things.

First off- it could happen. No one is too big to fail, not even one of the mainstays of the hobby like TSR.

Now, the Warhammer brands are rather powerful, and it is rather likely that someone would pick up the game and start going on with it. Maybe Wizards of the Coast, maybe Fantasty Flight games, maybe someone else, but it would be picked up.

Now, as to what 40k would look like at that point- well, it is hard to say. The new company might feel like they couldn't change anything about the game without upsetting the fan base, or they may feel quite at home with rebuilding the game from the ground up. Either way, if GW died, 40k would not.


On the other hand, it would be a large blow to the popularity of GW's games. With viable alternatives out there, it is easy to see how a lot of people would just start playing Warmachine/Hordes, Malifaux, Infinity, Dark Age, Wargods, Mercs, Relic Knight etc. Most likely, we would see a huge pick up in the games with the most momentum (currently Warmachine's at the top) and a sizable pick up for many others.


But that's totally off topic here. Let's be honest, there's simply no way that GW is going to feel very much hurt even if they lose the Chapterhouse case really badly.

mikhaila wrote:

spaceelf wrote:

Saldiven wrote:@Chimaera: I actually think that there would be a pretty decent market for, say, 4" or 8" action figures based upon the 40K universe. Something akin to the Star Wars figures from the 1980's.

I think that such figures were planned during the 90s, but were canned because GW did not want to play nice with other companies.

And the Toy companies don't play nice with anyone.

The toy business is quite ruthless, but there are examples of cooperation. Takara let Hasbro bring the Transformers to the states. The big toy companies also do lots of charity work. Hasbro and Mattel both have children's hospitals.

spaceelf wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

spaceelf wrote:

Saldiven wrote:@Chimaera: I actually think that there would be a pretty decent market for, say, 4" or 8" action figures based upon the 40K universe. Something akin to the Star Wars figures from the 1980's.

I think that such figures were planned during the 90s, but were canned because GW did not want to play nice with other companies.

And the Toy companies don't play nice with anyone.

The toy business is quite ruthless, but there are examples of cooperation. Takara let Hasbro bring the Transformers to the states. The big toy companies also do lots of charity work. Hasbro and Mattel both have children's hospitals.

That's called Licensing.