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kambien wrote:Where in the rules can you leave base to base ?

When the model having wounds allocated to it reaches zero wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Therefor you're not base to base with it, but due to the challenge rule stating that you can be base to base with only the other character in the challenge until the end of the phase, you can not pile in to base to base with another character.

Greg_Hager wrote:

kambien wrote:Where in the rules can you leave base to base ?

When the model having wounds allocated to it reaches zero wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Therefor you're not base to base with it, but due to the challenge rule stating that you can be base to base with only the other character in the challenge until the end of the phase, you can not pile in to base to base with another character.

if the challenge is ongoing even after one is slain , and both the challenger and challengee must be in base to base contact to be in the challenge , how are you removing a model without breaking RAW ?

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other."
These two models? What models?
A: The two models involved in the challenge.

what are they considered to be in Base contact with? Anyone, or only the other Challenger?
A: Only the other challenger.

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase."

For the duration of the challenge, which lasts until the end of the phase, The tow participants are in base contact only with each other.

they are not in base contact with no one, because they are always considered to be in base contact with the other participant, even if he is dead.

I think the clincher is the "considered to be" wording.

If they had said "These two models are in base to base contact only with each other" then there would be a rules break as you cannot be physically in base to base with a removed model.

HOWEVER, you CAN be "considered" to be in base to base with a removed model.

kambien wrote:

Greg_Hager wrote:

kambien wrote:Where in the rules can you leave base to base ?

When the model having wounds allocated to it reaches zero wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Therefor you're not base to base with it, but due to the challenge rule stating that you can be base to base with only the other character in the challenge until the end of the phase, you can not pile in to base to base with another character.

if the challenge is ongoing even after one is slain , and both the challenger and challengee must be in base to base contact to be in the challenge , how are you removing a model without breaking RAW ?

Ahh, but that's where you're wrong. The rules as written do not state that they must be in base to base contact for the challenge, they state that they can be in base to base contact with only each other for the duration of the challenge. Do you see the difference?

DeathReaper wrote:"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other."
These two models? What models?
A: The two models involved in the challenge.

what are they considered to be in Base contact with? Anyone, or only the other Challenger?
A: Only the other challenger.

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase."

For the duration of the challenge, which lasts until the end of the phase, The tow participants are in base contact only with each other.

they are not in base contact with no one, because they are always considered to be in base contact with the other participant, even if he is dead.

Your last sentence has no rules supporting it. Everything up until that point is absolutely correct. The rules state that the two models, for the duration of the challenge, are in base to base contact with only each other. So if there are other models piled in on the rest of the challenger/challengee's squads, you ignore them because the challenger/challengee are considered to be in base to base contact with only each other. This does not modify the length of time in which they are base to base, only who they can be base to base with until the end of the challenge.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unit1126PLL wrote:I think the clincher is the "considered to be" wording.

If they had said "These two models are in base to base contact only with each other" then there would be a rules break as you cannot be physically in base to base with a removed model.

HOWEVER, you CAN be "considered" to be in base to base with a removed model.

This is kinda the clincher, but not really in the way you stated it. I understand the whole "considered to be" wording, but what is actually the clincher is the position of the adverb 'only'. Where it is placed, it modifies the word 'be', saying who the models can be in base to base contact with for the duration of the challenge. With the deceased model removed because of wound allocation taking his wounds to zero, you move to the next model in their unit to allocate the remaining wounds to, if there is a valid recipient. "For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to only be in base to base contact with each other" is another way of restating the rule as written. It is not written, "For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base to base contact with each other."

Greg_Hager wrote:

kambien wrote:

Greg_Hager wrote:

kambien wrote:Where in the rules can you leave base to base ?

When the model having wounds allocated to it reaches zero wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Therefor you're not base to base with it, but due to the challenge rule stating that you can be base to base with only the other character in the challenge until the end of the phase, you can not pile in to base to base with another character.

if the challenge is ongoing even after one is slain , and both the challenger and challengee must be in base to base contact to be in the challenge , how are you removing a model without breaking RAW ?

Ahh, but that's where you're wrong. The rules as written do not state that they must be in base to base contact for the challenge, they state that they can be in base to base contact with only each other for the duration of the challenge. Do you see the difference?

Ah but they do ! It's the very first thing you do after accepting

pg 64. Fighting a Challenge

If a challenge have been accepted, it is time to move the two combatants into base contact with each other. It goes further to tell you to swap friendly models or "If neither of these moves would result in the two models being in base contact, "swap" the challenger to as close as possible to the challengee and assume the two to be in base to base contact"

Greg_Hager wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:they are not in base contact with no one, because they are always considered to be in base contact with the other participant, even if he is dead.

Your last sentence has no rules supporting it.

Maybe P.64...

I will quote it again in case you missed it:

Rule #1 "For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other."
Rule #2 "When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase."

When are they considered to be in base contact?
A: For the duration of the challenge

How long does the challenge last?
A: until the end of the phase.

Even if one is dead?
A: Yes, as per Rule #2

Greg_Hager wrote:

kambien wrote:

Greg_Hager wrote:

kambien wrote:Where in the rules can you leave base to base ?

When the model having wounds allocated to it reaches zero wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Therefor you're not base to base with it, but due to the challenge rule stating that you can be base to base with only the other character in the challenge until the end of the phase, you can not pile in to base to base with another character.

if the challenge is ongoing even after one is slain , and both the challenger and challengee must be in base to base contact to be in the challenge , how are you removing a model without breaking RAW ?

Ahh, but that's where you're wrong. The rules as written do not state that they must be in base to base contact for the challenge, they state that they can be in base to base contact with only each other for the duration of the challenge. Do you see the difference?

Do you?

"these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other."

They are, Not can be.

The ARE considered to be in base contact.

You are incorrect.

Greg_Hager wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:

Greg_Hager wrote:Rules as written DO support wound overflow...though I can see how RAI (rules as intended...lol) wouldn't.

You can keep calling the sky orange it doesn't change the fact that it is still blue.

Nothing stops normal wound allocation from happening after a character is slain from the challenge.

Wrong again. Under your interpretation of the rule any wounds from the challenger could be allocated to any other model that is in BTB with someone else at that initiative before the challenge is over. So a Captain could allocate his wounds to the Orks in BTB with his Marines, since they are all I4. The rule states that wounds are allocated to models in BTB with an attacker at that initiative step. Try reading the rules you are claiming are so clear.

What you said, is correct if there wasn't a challenge going on. Since there is a challenge going on, and these characters are considered to be base to base with only each other, they have to be allocated to the character in the challenge before being allocated to the rest of the unit.

Yet again you are wrong. I find it amusing that you don't even know the rules you are trying to argue in favor of.

Read page 25 under Allocating Wounds. It says "A wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that initiative step." Not the attacker, or the model in BTB, but any model who is attacking at that initiative step. According to your version of the rules where challenge wounds overflow it is possible, according to the wound allocation rule, for an opponent to allocate all challenge wounds to the squad effectively negating the purpose of the challenge.

But all of that was irrelevant because according to your arguments, specifically your response to me, you do not believe that wound overflow from a challenge is possible since, as you said, the models.in the challenge must allocate all wounds to each other while the challenge lasts, and the rules state that the challenge lasts the whole phase even if one of them die. Read it. I'll wait, go ahead. And, point, set, match.

13 pages and nobody has really articulated the major concern here.

The rulebook says that both models in the challenge are considered to be in base to base contact only with each other for the duration of the challenge. The question is, what happens when one model is killed? In my opinion, this is ambiguous. There are a couple camps here.

One camp believes that "considered to be in base to base contact only with each other for the duration of the challenge" implies that even if a model is slain, it remains in base to base contact until the end of the challenge. If this is true, then overflow cannot happen. The other camp believes that the words "only with each other" imply that the meaning of the sentence is to prevent all other models from being in base to base contact with the two models in the challenge and not to keep the members of the challenge in base to base contact no matter what. If this is the case, and slain models are removed from base to base contact, then overflow clearly happens.

You guys aren't going to convince anybody by simply stating your side emphatically and declaring victory. You need to seriously examine both positions. I think that anybody who does this will see that both interpretations of this sentence can be supported, particularly since GW writes some pretty imprecise language.

I tend to side with the camp that believes that slain models are no longer in B2B. In my mind, the meaning of the sentence is only to restrict other models from attacking the members of the challenge. However, I can buy the other reading as well. The sentence is not precise, we can all agree on that. To claim that the way you parse that sentence is the only correct way is arrogant.

Pick a side with your play group and stick with it until an FAQ clarifies it. If going to a tournament, ask the TO before hand. Problem solved.

The trouble is its not that simple. There are other implications that come into effect once you let one thing go past.

"are considered to be" entirely overrides any chance of them NOT being in base to base, as far as wound allocation is concerned.
They ARE in base to base, for the duration of the challenge. Present tense. Not will be, not have been but can come otu of being base to base, but ARE in base to base.

kambien wrote:Ah but they do ! It's the very first thing you do after accepting

pg 64. Fighting a Challenge

If a challenge have been accepted, it is time to move the two combatants into base contact with each other. It goes further to tell you to swap friendly models or "If neither of these moves would result in the two models being in base contact, "swap" the challenger to as close as possible to the challengee and assume the two to be in base to base contact"

I appologize for not clearly stating what I meant. I was thinking faster than I was typing. I meant that the rules as written do not state that they must remain in base to base contact with each other for the duration of the challenge, it states that they can be in base to base contact with only each other for the duration of the challenge. My appologizes.

DeathReaper wrote:

Greg_Hager wrote:Ahh, but that's where you're wrong. The rules as written do not state that they must be in base to base contact for the challenge, they state that they can be in base to base contact with only each other for the duration of the challenge. Do you see the difference?

Do you?

"these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other."

They are, Not can be.

The ARE considered to be in base contact.

You are incorrect.

See above that I replied to kambien. I apologize for my error in what I meant to say.

Captain Antivas wrote:

Greg_Hager wrote:What you said, is correct if there wasn't a challenge going on. Since there is a challenge going on, and these characters are considered to be base to base with only each other, they have to be allocated to the character in the challenge before being allocated to the rest of the unit.

Yet again you are wrong. I find it amusing that you don't even know the rules you are trying to argue in favor of.

Read page 25 under Allocating Wounds. It says "A wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that initiative step." Not the attacker, or the model in BTB, but any model who is attacking at that initiative step. According to your version of the rules where challenge wounds overflow it is possible, according to the wound allocation rule, for an opponent to allocate all challenge wounds to the squad effectively negating the purpose of the challenge.

But all of that was irrelevant because according to your arguments, specifically your response to me, you do not believe that wound overflow from a challenge is possible since, as you said, the models.in the challenge must allocate all wounds to each other while the challenge lasts, and the rules state that the challenge lasts the whole phase even if one of them die. Read it. I'll wait, go ahead. And, point, set, match.

I'm sorry you don't think I understand what I'm talking about. Now, starting with page 25...

Page 25 wrote:A wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step.

That states that a wound coming from a model attacking at that Initiative step must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with it. So...I don't know how you twisted it to say everything else I quoted from you above. You roll a die for all the attackers that are base to base with their enemy. Since these two are considered to be base to base with only each other, you have to roll them separate. So since they're not base to base, you can't allocate their attacks to someone that they're not in base to base contact with. I see what you're saying, and if they were all base to base with each other it would work, but they're not.

UncleMeat wrote:13 pages and nobody has really articulated the major concern here.

The rulebook says that both models in the challenge are considered to be in base to base contact only with each other for the duration of the challenge. The question is, what happens when one model is killed? In my opinion, this is ambiguous. There are a couple camps here.

One camp believes that "considered to be in base to base contact only with each other for the duration of the challenge" implies that even if a model is slain, it remains in base to base contact until the end of the challenge. If this is true, then overflow cannot happen. The other camp believes that the words "only with each other" imply that the meaning of the sentence is to prevent all other models from being in base to base contact with the two models in the challenge and not to keep the members of the challenge in base to base contact no matter what. If this is the case, and slain models are removed from base to base contact, then overflow clearly happens.

You guys aren't going to convince anybody by simply stating your side emphatically and declaring victory. You need to seriously examine both positions. I think that anybody who does this will see that both interpretations of this sentence can be supported, particularly since GW writes some pretty imprecise language.

I tend to side with the camp that believes that slain models are no longer in B2B. In my mind, the meaning of the sentence is only to restrict other models from attacking the members of the challenge. However, I can buy the other reading as well. The sentence is not precise, we can all agree on that. To claim that the way you parse that sentence is the only correct way is arrogant.

Pick a side with your play group and stick with it until an FAQ clarifies it. If going to a tournament, ask the TO before hand. Problem solved.

I totally agree with you here. I see both sides of the argument but the RAW favor wound overflow. The 6th Edition games I've played we've discussed this and we agree with overflow. No problems at all here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"are considered to be" entirely overrides any chance of them NOT being in base to base, as far as wound allocation is concerned.
They ARE in base to base, for the duration of the challenge. Present tense. Not will be, not have been but can come otu of being base to base, but ARE in base to base.

If you quote only "are considered to be" then you can read it this way. You have to take the rule in it's entirety. They are considered to be base to base only with each other. Yes, presently they are considered to be base to base with only each other, no other models can be base to base with them for the duration of the challenge. It does not say that they are base to base only, it states that they are base to base with only each other. You're missing what the rule states and simplifying it to where it doesn't say the same thing.

And, again, that isnt what the rule says

The ARE in base to base, for the duration of the challenge, which lasts the entire phase

So they ARE in base to base for the entire phase

You can disagree all you want, but that IS what the rules parse to. No wound overflow is possible....

I just looked in the BRB and there is no entry for wound overflow. Matter of fact it says nothing about it in black and white.

So what is this wound overflow that people are talking about? It's not in the rules.....

It comes from some people being upset that thier uber HtH character can't wipe out an entire squad with no real threat of being wounded.

I've brought up the samething, there is no mention of overflow so there is no overflow. GW can be shady on rules, but this is a pretty big mechanic to just forget to mention or leave up to the statement of "follow normal wound allocation rules." with no guidence on how that statement interacts with this unique situation.

nosferatu1001 wrote:And, again, that isnt what the rule says

The ARE in base to base, for the duration of the challenge, which lasts the entire phase

So they ARE in base to base for the entire phase

You can disagree all you want, but that IS what the rules parse to. No wound overflow is possible....

The rules state that they are in base to base only with each other. Not that they are in base to base period. It's only excluding everyone else from being base to base with them for the phase. That is all.

MJThurston wrote:I just looked in the BRB and there is no entry for wound overflow. Matter of fact it says nothing about it in black and white.

So what is this wound overflow that people are talking about? It's not in the rules.....

It comes from normal wound allocation after a character in a challenge is killed, removed as a causality, and there are still unsaved wounds to be allocated.

hisdudeness wrote:It comes from some people being upset that thier uber HtH character can't wipe out an entire squad with no real threat of being wounded.

I've brought up the samething, there is no mention of overflow so there is no overflow. GW can be shady on rules, but this is a pretty big mechanic to just forget to mention or leave up to the statement of "follow normal wound allocation rules." with no guidence on how that statement interacts with this unique situation.

I agree they can be shady, however normal wound allocation rules apply to the Assault phase. The only thing that a challenge changes is who can be base to base with the challengers for the duration of the challenge.

Greg_Hager wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:And, again, that isnt what the rule says

The ARE in base to base, for the duration of the challenge, which lasts the entire phase

So they ARE in base to base for the entire phase

You can disagree all you want, but that IS what the rules parse to. No wound overflow is possible....

The rules state that they are in base to base only with each other. Not that they are in base to base period. It's only excluding everyone else from being base to base with them for the phase. That is all.

MJThurston wrote:I just looked in the BRB and there is no entry for wound overflow. Matter of fact it says nothing about it in black and white.

So what is this wound overflow that people are talking about? It's not in the rules.....

It comes from normal wound allocation after a character in a challenge is killed, removed as a causality, and there are still unsaved wounds to be allocated.

hisdudeness wrote:It comes from some people being upset that thier uber HtH character can't wipe out an entire squad with no real threat of being wounded.

I've brought up the samething, there is no mention of overflow so there is no overflow. GW can be shady on rules, but this is a pretty big mechanic to just forget to mention or leave up to the statement of "follow normal wound allocation rules." with no guidence on how that statement interacts with this unique situation.

I agree they can be shady, however normal wound allocation rules apply to the Assault phase. The only thing that a challenge changes is who can be base to base with the challengers for the duration of the challenge.

Greg, do you really think that there is supposed to be wound overflow? That when the FAQ is released, they'll be like, "Sorry guys, we just forgot to include specific rules for wound overflow."

Greg_Hager wrote:I appologize for not clearly stating what I meant. I was thinking faster than I was typing. I meant that the rules as written do not state that they must remain in base to base contact with each other for the duration of the challenge, it states that they can be in base to base contact with only each other for the duration of the challenge. My appologizes.

Again, It does not say this "they can be in base to base contact with only each other for the duration of the challenge"

Is says this "they are in base to base contact with only each other for the duration of the challenge"

Greg_Hager wrote:The rules state that they are in base to base only with each other. Not that they are in base to base period. It's only excluding everyone else from being base to base with them for the phase. That is all.

Right they are in base to base only with the other person in the challenge for the entire phase even if one of them is killed.

So you can only put wounds on models in base to base, and the model in base contact is dead, so you loose the rest of the wounds, as RAW states.

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other."
In this sentence these two models are talking about the Challenger/Challengee, and each other refers to the Challengee/Challenger as well.

So we can say it like this and the meaning is the same:
"For the duration of the challenge, the Challenger/Challengee (these two models) are considered to be in base contact only with Challengee/Challenger (each other)."

"For the duration of the challenge, the Challenge is considered to be in base contact only with Challengee."

Even if one is slain

Seems pretty clear cut to me that excess wounds are allocated to the squad.

1. The rules for challenges state that "only the challenger and challengee can strike blows against one another," This is a restriction only on models that are not the challenger and challengee.

2. Wounds are allocated to enemy models in base contact first. Because the challenger and challengee are only considered to be in base contact with each other, the challenger must allocate wounds to the challengee. The rules ALSO state that if no enemy models are in base contact, the wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model. Therefore, once the challengee has been removed, wounds overflow to the closest enemy model.

There is nothing in the rules called "over flow wounds". It's something you are making up.

Did everyone here not read the part after Combatant Slain?

Combatant Slain
Once one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, no matter at what initiative, the challenge continues until the end of phase.

Outside forces
Only the challenger and challengee can strike blows against each other during a challenge!

Do I need to type more on this issue?

Nate668 wrote:

2. Wounds are allocated to enemy models in base contact first. Because the challenger and challengee are only considered to be in base contact with each other, the challenger must allocate wounds to the challengee. The rules ALSO state that if no enemy models are in base contact, the wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model. Therefore, once the challengee has been removed, wounds overflow to the closest enemy model.

and here is the issue. Even if you remove one of them , they are still considered in base to base contact , so you can't allocate anywhere else.

Page 25: Wounds are allocated and resolved with the closest model, just like in the Shooting Phase; The bullet points;

-A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that initiative step...Roll the model's saving throw (if it has one), and remove the casualty (if necessary);

-If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that initiative step, the wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model...etc.

Per Wound allocation, the process of order is follows

Is there a model in Base Contact. If Yes, remove Model. Go to next wound to allocate
Is there a model in Base Contact. If No, remove next closest model.

So you are in a challenge. You do 3 wounds. Follow process of order;

Is there a model in Base Contact. Yes.
-Allocate wound and remove model. Go to next wound to allocate
Is there a model in Base Contact. Yes, by virtue of the rules in a challenge that state you are considered to be in base contact only with each other which persists through death until the end of the phase.
-Allocate wound and remove model. Go to next wound to allocate
Is there a model in Base Contact. Yes, by virtue of the rules in a challenge that state you are considered to be in base contact only with each other which persists through death until the end of the phase.
-Allocate wound and remove model. Go to next wound to allocate

That's how it works. That is RAW wound allocation. You cannot allocate an unsaved wound to the next closest model as long as you are in base contact with a model. Per the rules of the Challenge, you considered to only ever in base contact with challenger, and that consideration lasts until the end of the phase. The slain combatant is "still there" and is a 0 wound sponge until the Challenge is over, which is the end of the phase.

Running in circles here, the last 13 pages here have addressed that. The clincher is that they are considered to be in the challenge for the entire assault, and that while in a challenge only in base to base with each other. That means they aren't in base to base with anyone else.

Everyone will in the end see it their way, and dice it off. I say no overflow, but what can we do but bicker?

READ THE CHALLENGE RULES AGAIN

I showed you were to go. Page 64, last two entries. Clearly states how this works. There is no such thing as over flow wounds from or to a challenge.

@GREG: Just sneaking in to give you a break for 2 seconds amigo, and let you know that while you are not alone in the wound overflow camp, you are also never going to convince everyone

DeathReaper wrote:
Again, It does not say this "they can be in base to base contact with only each other for the duration of the challenge"

Is says this "they are in base to base contact with only each other for the duration of the challenge"
[

You are correct, it says they are in base to base contact with only each other for the duration of the challenge. They are in base to base contact with only each other for the duration of the challenge. Not that they are in base to base contact for the duration of the challenge. The two clauses are not equivalent. The rule is written in such a state that the two characters cannot be in base contact with anything else, but they do not have to be in base with each other.

To word it differently, the rule states:

For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other.

If the rule was written:
For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact

You, and many others, would be correct. However, it does not end there. The rule has an additional phrase "only with each other" before the period. This qualifier results in a sentence that does not mean the two models are permanently in base contact. It only means that the models may not be in contact with any other model for the duration of the challenge.

The models do not need to be in base contact with each other, they simply cannot be in base contact with any other model. THAT is the fundamental difference between the two camps (at least those still attempting to sway the other side). That is what people are going to have a hard time agreeing upon, because they are interpreting the sentence fundamentally differently.

For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact is not the same as For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other.

This is a pretty classic case of misplaced modifier (the word only).

I tried making this point on page 6 i think, and was subsequently shouted down by the same people who post the same three sentences and insist the rules are clear as written.

A plain text reading of the sentence with careful attention to the modifier and some understanding of grammar bears out;
the rule does not prevent one member of the challenge from being "considered to be" in base with nobody.

If the rule read "are only considered to be.." then yeah, I might agree that they are in base the whole time, because the text says they can be "considered" "only" one way.

But it doesn't, it's just considered to be in base only with eachother.

Just like the mug that can be filled only with beer may be empty.
But the mug that can only be filled with beer may never be empty.

A mug that can be filled only with beer may be empty, because the requirement is just that "if the mug is filled, it must be with beer"
A model that can be in base only with one other model may not be in base with anyone. Just that "if the model is in base, it must be with the model required"

jcress410 wrote:Just like the mug that can be filled only with beer may be empty.
But the mug that can only be filled with beer may never be empty.

A mug that can be filled only with beer may be empty, because the requirement is just that "if the mug is filled, it must be with beer"
A model that can be in base only with one other model may not be in base with anyone. Just that "if the model is in base, it must be with the model required"

Even if it is empty it is considered to be filled with beer.

So we may not pour any other liquids in the mug, because it is considered to be filled with beer, even if all of the beer has been drunk.

"A model that can be in base only with one other model may not be in base with anyone" (This is incorrect)
It should read "A model that is considered to be in base only with one other model must be in base to base with that other model."

How do you not understand that?

Where does it say that when the challenger/challengee model model is slain, he is not removed as a casualty? It does state that while they are fighting they are in base to base only with each other. Once one those two models are slain, where is it written that the model isn't removed as a casualty like normal? The model that survived and hasnt been slain is in the challenge that is considered to be ongoing, the one that's slain is dead and removed as a casualty and is no longer in the challenge

EAFChunk wrote:Where does it say that when the challenger/challengee model model is slain, he is not removed as a casualty? It does state that while they are fighting they are in base to base only with each other. Once one those two models are slain, where is it written that the model isn't removed as a casualty like normal? The model that survived and hasnt been slain is in the challenge that is considered to be ongoing, the one that's slain is dead and removed as a casualty and is no longer in the challenge

You read the thread yes?

Let me sum up. The underlined is where you are incorrect. The one that is slain is dead and removed as a casualty but is still considered to be in the challenge.

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other"
"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain... the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase"
Both quotes from page 64

So the challenger/challengee are considered to be in base contact only with each other For the duration of the challenge which is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase even if one of the combatants in a challenge is slain.

I would like one of you in the Overflow is allowed camp to address the paradox I put forth that has been ignored, likely because it destroys your argument and makes your precious wound overflow disappear.

Can we stop talking about the base to base please. No matter which one of you are right the rule is still the same. Wounds must be allocated to a model in BTB contact with a model attacking at that initiative step. Meaning that since wounds are allocated by the controlling player if there are multiple models in base contact with someone at that initiative step including the challenger, since you say the part that tells you to ignore the challengers when allocating wounds doesn't apply to the challengers. So the player whose Captain scores 3 wounds against the Nob cannot say anything to the player who allocates the wounds to the Orks in BTB with his other Marines since they are attacking at the same initiative step. Read the rules guys this BTB argument is moot.