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The rule has been altered since 5th ed.
Page 2 wounds. Acording to that you cannot come back from having 0 wounds. Oh wait codex>brb.
You refuse the logic of SA is only limiting in that a rule must specify to prevent the execution of that stage. ATSKNF fulfills that example but EL does not seek to prevent the destruction of the unit. At that stage the battle is over for them. Luckily they have a more specific rule.

I am sorry that I don't buy the analogy of an outdated rule from pre 3.5 3rd ed's interaction with 4th and 5th ed rules. What I do look at is the interaction of a late 5th ed codex with the 6th ed rules. I find that your argument that there is no order of operations in 40k laughable as it goes into detail in what must follow what in most incidences.

Ah so now you speak fact, thank god. This subjective reading thing has been the bane of literature for years. What did Joyce really mean during the stream of consciousness in Ulysses?

Nemesor Dave wrote:
3. BRB p. 27 "At the end of a combat, if a unit's opponents are all either
destroyed or falling back or the end of combat Pile In was
insufficient, so that the units are no longer locked in combat
with each other, they may Consolidate."
Is the victor making Sweeping Advance at this time? NO. Marines are consolidating at the end of combat.

MMM E

So Sweeping Advance doesn't have a lasting effect? Despite the fact that "at this stage" means "from here on"?

That's what I don't understand. The definitions provided by someone on your side support me. And you are either ignoring them or deciding they're wrong.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
3. BRB p. 27 "At the end of a combat, if a unit's opponents are all either
destroyed or falling back or the end of combat Pile In was
insufficient, so that the units are no longer locked in combat
with each other, they may Consolidate."
Is the victor making Sweeping Advance at this time? NO. Marines are consolidating at the end of combat.

MMM E

So Sweeping Advance doesn't have a lasting effect? Despite the fact that "at this stage" means "from here on"?

That's what I don't understand. The definitions provided by someone on your side support me. And you are either ignoring them or deciding they're wrong.

Despite the fact that "at this stage" means "from here".

..until the end of the battle, because "for them, the battle is over"

Thats RAI. RAW the rule reads until Sweeping Advances is finished. EL doesnt let the model stop the Sweeping Advance, nor does it allow them to get back up during the Sweeping Advance. As Everliving states you roll for the token at the end of the phase, which is after Sweeping Advances finished.

Do note, this does prevent St Celstiane(sp) from coming back due to her special rule worded as happening during the Sweeping Advance.

As far as the last sentence goes, it boils down to the fact that its a semi-colon. Referencing the topic preceding it and that the sentence after the semi-colon is in conjunction with that sentence. Had that been a colon instead of a semi-colon, the against EL crowd be correct. However, with the semi-colon in place, it reads as "Nothing may save these models/unit, for the duration of this rule, they may not come back with anything bar ATSKNF as long as this rule is ongoing until its conclusion."

Xzerios wrote:Thats RAI. RAW the rule reads until Sweeping Advances is finished. EL doesnt let the model stop the Sweeping Advance, nor does it allow them to get back up during the Sweeping Advance. As Everliving states you roll for the token at the end of the phase, which is after Sweeping Advances finished.

Do note, this does prevent St Celstiane(sp) from coming back due to her special rule worded as happening during the Sweeping Advance.

Wait, what? EL models can come back while St. C. cannot?

Seriously, spell that one out for me.

Its due in part to the timing of Divine Interventions wording, and the timing of Ever Livings wording. Divine Intervention comes back when its removed as a casualty while Ever Living comes back at the end of the phase.

As we all can read, no special rule may save them, but due to the wording of Sweeping Advances, the special rule that saves them may not work while the effect is ongoing until you finish up with Sweeping Advances. Since Divine Intervention states that when you remove her as a casualty, you roll and if you succeeded, place her back; Yet the wording of Sweeping Advances specifically states that thats special rule may not be used while its ongoing. Ever Living pops the model back up at the end of the phase, which by now of course, Sweeping Advances rule has finished of its entirety.

I don't have the SoB codex - Miraculous Intervention brings her back at the beginning of your turn, right?

edit:

Xzerios wrote:Ever Living pops the model back up at the end of the phase, which by now of course, Sweeping Advances rule has finished of its entirety.

You keep saying that like it matters.
Yes, the rule is done resolving.
Yes, rules can have lasting effects.
No, you haven't shown that SA does not have a lasting effect.

Yes, MI is at the start of the SoB turn. Same as Thawn, Yarrick

As above. No RAI needed when the rule specifies the duration of the inabiltiy to take further part in the battle

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, MI is at the start of the SoB turn. Same as Thawn, Yarrick

So the following statement is factually incorrect? Just clarifying.

Xzerios wrote:Its due in part to the timing of Divine Interventions wording, and the timing of Ever Livings wording. Divine Intervention comes back when its removed as a casualty while Ever Living comes back at the end of the phase.

Additionally, MI was FAQ'd that St. C could come back from things that remove from play.

Eh, pulling my hair out trying to find the August/Sept WD to refrence. :d

rigeld2 wrote:You keep saying that like it matters.
Yes, the rule is done resolving.
Yes, rules can have lasting effects.
No, you haven't shown that SA does not have a lasting effect.

Oh sir, I dont have to show that has a lasting effect. Its your side that does. The rule is finished after you consolidate. RAW, the unit cant come back for the duration of the rule; There is no mention in the effects of the rule that it goes on until the end of the game, merely until the end of the rule.

Xzerios wrote:Eh, pulling my hair out trying to find the August/Sept WD to refrence. :d

rigeld2 wrote:You keep saying that like it matters.
Yes, the rule is done resolving.
Yes, rules can have lasting effects.
No, you haven't shown that SA does not have a lasting effect.

Oh sir, I dont have to show that has a lasting effect. Its your side that does. The rule is finished after you consolidate. RAW, the unit cant come back for the duration of the rule; There is no mention in the effects of the rule that it goes on until the end of the game, merely until the end of the rule.

There is a mention of a lasting effect - "at this stage". There is no mention on the ending of that lasting effect.

rigeld2 wrote:

Xzerios wrote:Eh, pulling my hair out trying to find the August/Sept WD to refrence. :d

rigeld2 wrote:You keep saying that like it matters.
Yes, the rule is done resolving.
Yes, rules can have lasting effects.
No, you haven't shown that SA does not have a lasting effect.

Oh sir, I dont have to show that has a lasting effect. Its your side that does. The rule is finished after you consolidate. RAW, the unit cant come back for the duration of the rule; There is no mention in the effects of the rule that it goes on until the end of the game, merely until the end of the rule.

There is a mention of a lasting effect - "at this stage". There is no mention on the ending of that lasting effect.

And you are ignoring the dictionary definition as i posted earlier .



At this stage, to mean at this point in an event .
At this stage, to mean right now
At this stage, to me during this part of the event or action
At this stage ,not meaning from now until i say so .

Stage or stages is an abstract object often associated with either theater and scene or point of progress. from the definition in the oxford English dictionary

Also, at this or that stage of the game. At this (that) step, phase, or position in a process or activity, as in I'm not sure if you can help at this stage, but perhaps you can pitch in later, or I don't need an assistant at this stage of the game. The variant uses game in the sense of “a particular process or activity.” .from several online dictionary's

Your RAI for "At this stage" is to read as "From here on".
My RAI for "At this stage" reads as "Up to this point".

Ambiguous word is ambiguous.

Luckily however, we are not going RAI, the forum here is RAW. Let us break down the word in its current contextual meaning within this sentence.

Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage;

The underlined words of the sentence all imply that the context is present-tense. Despite the fact that stage in its normal form can be used all three tenses; Past, Present, and Future, in this case, the sentence implies it is present tense.

You missed a part in your quote Xzerios. Conviently enough you are ignoring

for them the battle is over

snakel wrote:
And you are ignoring the dictionary definition as i posted earlier .

At this stage, to mean at this point in an event .
At this stage, to mean right now
At this stage, to me during this part of the event or action
At this stage ,not meaning from now until i say so .

Stage or stages is an abstract object often associated with either theater and scene or point of progress. from the definition in the oxford English dictionary

Also, at this or that stage of the game. At this (that) step, phase, or position in a process or activity, as in I'm not sure if you can help at this stage, but perhaps you can pitch in later, or I don't need an assistant at this stage of the game. The variant uses game in the sense of “a particular process or activity.” .from several online dictionary's

No, actually - thanks for reposting what I am referring to.
At that step (IE after being removed) they cannot be rescued.
There isn't a next step defined.
You're assuming that it ends when the rule is finished resolving.
I don't see any reason to assume that especially with the fluff indicating the intent to mean for the battle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xzerios wrote:

Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage;

The underlined words of the sentence all imply that the context is present-tense. Despite the fact that stage in its normal form can be used all three tenses; Past, Present, and Future, in this case, the sentence implies it is present tense.

Despite the definitions that have been posted?

You're singling out words in a phrase.

Even doing that - yes, in the present stage they cannot be rescued. Find where the next stage begins, and where the state changes during that next stage.
You're assuming that the next stage begins when the SA finishes resolving. You're also assuming that they can be rescued at that stage.
Neither is asserted in the rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote:
And you are ignoring the dictionary definition as i posted earlier .

At this stage, to mean at this point in an event .
At this stage, to mean right now
At this stage, to me during this part of the event or action
At this stage ,not meaning from now until i say so .

Stage or stages is an abstract object often associated with either theater and scene or point of progress. from the definition in the oxford English dictionary

Also, at this or that stage of the game. At this (that) step, phase, or position in a process or activity, as in I'm not sure if you can help at this stage, but perhaps you can pitch in later, or I don't need an assistant at this stage of the game. The variant uses game in the sense of “a particular process or activity.” .from several online dictionary's

No, actually - thanks for reposting what I am referring to.
At that step (IE after being removed) they cannot be rescued.
There isn't a next step defined.
You're assuming that it ends when the rule is finished resolving.
I don't see any reason to assume that especially with the fluff indicating the intent to mean for the battle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xzerios wrote:

Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage;

The underlined words of the sentence all imply that the context is present-tense. Despite the fact that stage in its normal form can be used all three tenses; Past, Present, and Future, in this case, the sentence implies it is present tense.

Despite the definitions that have been posted?

You're singling out words in a phrase.

Even doing that - yes, in the present stage they cannot be rescued. Find where the next stage begins, and where the state changes during that next stage.
You're assuming that the next stage begins when the SA finishes resolving. You're also assuming that they can be rescued at that stage.
Neither is asserted in the rules.

Lol very good i like how you change At this stage to at that stage and then make up your own interpretation of the English language

It sadly does not say when the next stage begins within the BRB. This is the only mention of a 'stage' within the standard rules.

I know that there is not a next stage in the game. You need to show us where its an on going event at this point. Ill save some time here and point again to the fact that this is present tense. Its not allowed to be a future tense stage due to the writing of the rule. With that in mind, read the rule once more.

Unit has been swept.
Token goes down.
Check, is any special rule saving the unit at this stage?
Yes: disallowed. No: continue with rule.
End of Combat Pile-in
Consolidation
End Fight Sub-phase
Finish other combats or ongoing combats.
End phase; Check for Ever Living Token.

Present tense does not allow you to interject a 'Check: is any special rule saving the unit at this stage?' at this point in the game as it happened back within the rules of the Sweeping Advance which is now over.

snakel wrote:Lol very good i like how you change At this stage to at that stage and then make up your own interpretation of the English language

I have no idea what you're referring to. I haven't "changed" anything and I'm not making anything up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xzerios wrote:It sadly does not say when the next stage begins within the BRB. This is the only mention of a 'stage' within the standard rules.

I know that there is not a next stage in the game. You need to show us where its an on going event at this point. Ill save some time here and point again to the fact that this is present tense. Its not allowed to be a future tense stage due to the writing of the rule. With that in mind, read the rule once more.

Present tense does not allow you to interject a 'Check: is any special rule saving the unit at this stage?' at this point in the game as it happened back within the rules of the Sweeping Advance which is now over.

Present tense changes from the stage where there is a way to rescue the unit to a stage where there is no way to rescue the unit. Yes/No
There is no defined end to that stage. Yes/No

You're artificially ending the stage at the end of the SA resolution.

I put my phone down. Present tense, right?
After I'm done putting my phone down, is it now in my hand?

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
3. BRB p. 27 "At the end of a combat, if a unit's opponents are all either
destroyed or falling back or the end of combat Pile In was
insufficient, so that the units are no longer locked in combat
with each other, they may Consolidate."
Is the victor making Sweeping Advance at this time? NO. Marines are consolidating at the end of combat.

MMM E

So Sweeping Advance doesn't have a lasting effect? Despite the fact that "at this stage" means "from here on"?

That's what I don't understand. The definitions provided by someone on your side support me. And you are either ignoring them or deciding they're wrong.

No, "at this stage" does not mean "from here on". Bad English comprehension my friend. "At this stage" means now, during this step in a chain of steps. It means if you were to divide a set of tasks into stages, the even occurs for one stage.

But don't just take my word for it. http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/at+this+stage The more you know...

A Sweeping Advance is made by the victor. You are never given permission to keep performing a Sweeping Advance during Consolidation or afterwards.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
3. BRB p. 27 "At the end of a combat, if a unit's opponents are all either
destroyed or falling back or the end of combat Pile In was
insufficient, so that the units are no longer locked in combat
with each other, they may Consolidate."
Is the victor making Sweeping Advance at this time? NO. Marines are consolidating at the end of combat.

MMM E

So Sweeping Advance doesn't have a lasting effect? Despite the fact that "at this stage" means "from here on"?

That's what I don't understand. The definitions provided by someone on your side support me. And you are either ignoring them or deciding they're wrong.

No, "at this stage" does not mean "from here on". Bad English comprehension my friend. "At this stage" means now, during this step in a chain of steps. It means if you were to divide a set of tasks into stages, the even occurs for one stage.

But don't just take my word for it. http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/at+this+stage The more you know...

A Sweeping Advance is made by the victor. You are never given permission to keep performing a Sweeping Advance during Consolidation or afterwards.

Sigh.

Seriously, yes it means "during this step in a chain of steps". Find permission to move to the next step in the chain. Find permission to change the "cannot be rescued" to "can be rescued" once you're in the fanciful next step.
It's like no one reads my posts. Bad English comprehension indeed.

rigeld2 wrote:Present tense changes from the stage where there is a way to rescue the unit to a stage where there is no way to rescue the unit. Yes/No

I dont see where the sentence changed to read this way. However again your not understanding that the present tense of "stage" is to mean "Up to this point". It doesnt change and its context cant be changed to future-tense due to the words written with in the sentence.

rigeld2 wrote:There is no defined end to that stage. Yes/No

"Up to this point". Definition for this includes at this point in time, right now, this very moment, chronologically set now. This in itself is the end of the word "Stage" in its current 'tense' form.

rigeld2 wrote:After I'm done putting my phone down, is it now in my hand?

This is poor English, it should read; "After I've put down my phone, is it now in my hand?"

Indeed Rigeld, noone has managed to read your posts. Snakel has entirely forgotten that the special rule is used to place tokens, and is now hoping it will be forgotten instead...

Xzerios wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Present tense changes from the stage where there is a way to rescue the unit to a stage where there is no way to rescue the unit. Yes/No

I dont see where the sentence changed to read this way. However again your not understanding that the present tense of "stage" is to mean "Up to this point". It doesnt change and its context cant be changed to future-tense due to the words written with in the sentence.

Have you read the definitions and examples your peers have posted?
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/at+this+stage " At this stage, we are better off not calling the doctor"
That's not "this exact moment in time and will never be another moment" or "up to this point" it's "unless something changes"
http://idioms.yourdictionary.com/at-this-stage "I'm not sure if you can help at this stage, but perhaps you can pitch in later"
Again, not a single point in time, but covers a period of time (until "later").

rigeld2 wrote:There is no defined end to that stage. Yes/No

"Up to this point". Definition for this includes at this point in time, right now, this very moment, chronologically set now. This in itself is the end of the word "Stage" in its current 'tense' form.

You're still treating stage like a single word.

rigeld2 wrote:After I'm done putting my phone down, is it now in my hand?

This is poor English, it should read; "After I've put down my phone, is it now in my hand?"

Fair enough - the question stands.

Id recommend you check those links good sir.
They agree with me.

Its up to this point that the context of the word stage will be concluded in this argument.

Xzerios wrote:Id recommend you check those links good sir.
They agree with me.

Its up to this point that the context of the word stage will be concluded in this argument.

... I copy/pasted how they agree with me. Seriously, the words in quotes next to the link appear in the link.

Are you saying those words don't support me?

at this stage (of the game)
Fig. at the current point in some event or situation; currently.

From the first link, bolded and non colored sentence is what Ive copied.

Also, at this or that stage of the game. At this (that) step, phase, or position in a process or activity, as in I'm not sure if you can help at this stage, but perhaps you can pitch in later, or I don't need an assistant at this stage of the game. The variant uses game in the sense of “a particular process or activity.” [Early 1800s]

Second link.

Whats the point at which they are all referencing?
Now.
At. This. Point.

Again, the intended purpose of the rule is to prevent the unit/model from coming back ever. However due to the way its written, they may not get back up after they are removed as casualties as Sweeping Advances calls for at this point, they may not get back up. Afterwards is good to go.

Poorly written rule is poorly written. :|

nosferatu1001 wrote:Indeed Rigeld, noone has managed to read your posts. Snakel has entirely forgotten that the special rule is used to place tokens, and is now hoping it will be forgotten instead...

Lol thanks for making me Laugh and just to make it clear even if the token was a special rule(i feel no need to prove to you at all that it is not) which part of it saves the unit from SA and being RFPAAC?

At this stage, a point in time a ,step or phase ,SA is at the end of the combat a sub phase of the assault phase(you could even make an argument SA is a sub phase all of its own ) there for consolidation is another sub phase .

So to be clear" at this stage blah blah you know the rest " stage = combat sub phase this ends ,then we are in the next stage of combat resolution consolidation, now when all other combats, sub phases, stages are done, example " at this stage we will do the Assault marine /wraith combat and we can move on to the overlord /Calgar combat when we have resolved this one" we then move on to the end of the assault phase and resolve any RP/EL counters as per the codex

snakel wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Indeed Rigeld, noone has managed to read your posts. Snakel has entirely forgotten that the special rule is used to place tokens, and is now hoping it will be forgotten instead...

Lol thanks for making me Laugh and just to make it clear even if the token was a special rule(i feel no need to prove to you at all that it is not) which part of it saves the unit from SA and being RFPAAC?

Lol, youre just too funny. Apparently having proven that placement of the token requires a special rule (shock, its RP / EL - i even gave you the page numbers, just to make sure you couldnt keep wiggling and pretending otherwise) you are still convinced it ISNT a special rule

Impressive denial of facts.

snakel wrote:At this stage, a point in time a ,step or phase ,

...which isnt what "at this stage" means in context. Something you are struggling to comprehend it seems.

snakel wrote:SA is at the end of the combat a sub phase of the assault phase(you could even make an argument SA is a sub phase all of its own )

No, you couldnt. The subphases are defined.

snakel wrote:there for consolidation is another sub phase .

More made up rules. Form ignorign to just making gak up now.

snakel wrote:So to be clear" at this stage blah blah you know the rest " stage = combat sub phase this ends ,then we are in the next stage of combat resolution consolidation, now when all other combats, sub phases, stages are done, example " at this stage we will do the Assault marine /wraith combat and we can move on to the overlord /Calgar combat when we have resolved this one" we then move on to the end of the assault phase and resolve any RP/EL counters as per the codex

Or, you follow the actual rules, and for any unit tha twishes to take further part in the battle, you have to have a special rule that SPECIFIES that they may do so.