Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer

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**DeathReaper**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR, you kjeep saying to not ignore context, yet you are doing so yourself. The context of "Force Weapon" includes both the fact they have the Force Rule, and that they are weapons. There are 2 ways they can cause instant death to Kharne

Except not all force weapons cause ID by Str Double tough because there are T6+ creatures out there.

The only way for any force weapon to inflict ID is to use the rules on P. 37

A Primaris Psyker with 2 enfeebles cast on his unit will never ID on Str Vs toughness. but he still can through the Force rules on P. 37

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR, you kjeep saying to not ignore context, yet you are doing so yourself. The context of "Force Weapon" includes both the fact they have the Force Rule, and that they are weapons. There are 2 ways they can cause instant death to Kharne
Except not all force weapons cause ID by Str Double tough because there are T6+ creatures out there.

Just like there are Psykers that fail their test, don't have Warp charges, etc.
Both methods are "ID potential".

The only way for any force weapon to inflict ID is to use the rules on P. 37

Absolutely false.

A Primaris Psyker with 2 enfeebles cast on his unit will never ID on Str Vs toughness. but he still can through the Force rules on P. 37

And according to you, a doubly enfeebled Carnifex would not suffer ID to a non activated Nemesis Demon Hammer. After all, Force weapons don't ID through double toughness.

**Tri**

DeathReaper wrote:
Except not all force weapons cause ID by Str Double tough because there are T6+ creatures out there.

All weapons can cause ID by double toughness. Just because some models have T6+ does not stop this being true, they can still be ID by a weapon that was double their toughness (It would require some weird weapon with a strength above the capped value)

End of the day there is no contexts other then he ignore 'Instant Death' from 'Force Weapons'. There are a number of ways this can happen, he could be reduce in toughness to the point that all attacks would cause ID but if that attack comes from a force weapon he's safe.

**ZebioLizard2**

All weapons can cause ID by double toughness. Just because some models have T6+ does not stop this being true, they can still be ID by a weapon that was double their toughness (It would require some weird weapon with a strength above the capped value)

Strength: D weapons could ID them.

**tgf**

DeathReaper wrote:
The Daemon Hammer is not a Force weapon, it is a Nemesis Force Weapon.

Lol i bet you are alot of fun to play with.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

DeathReaper wrote:

The only way for any force weapon to inflict ID is to use the rules on P. 37

Duely noted I'll gladly tell everyone at our LgS that the Str8 DH can only ID through the Force rule now.

As far as the Primaris psyker, you're telling me if he has FtHoC order which grants FC IIRC he would not ID T2 models?
Or if a scarab swarm was Enfeebled, and he is as above he would not ID the swarms? W/O "force"

Looks as if that statement is assuredly false.

**DeathReaper**

rigeld2 wrote:
Deathreaper wrote:The only way for any force weapon to inflict ID is to use the rules on P. 37

Absolutely false.

You read what I typed incorrectly. Any force weapon means all of them.

rigeld2 wrote:
Deathreaper wrote:A Primaris Psyker with 2 enfeebles cast on his unit will never ID on Str Vs toughness. but he still can through the Force rules on P. 37

And according to you, a doubly enfeebled Carnifex would not suffer ID to a non activated Nemesis Demon Hammer. After all, Force weapons don't ID through double toughness.

No I never said that either. There are some cases where a force weapon will have S>=2T. But That is not the method for ID that all force weapons use, as not all force weapons are S>=2T

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Strength: D weapons could ID them.

And Str D weapons are on what page in the BRB?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:

The only way for any force weapon to inflict ID is to use the rules on P. 37
Duely noted I'll gladly tell everyone at our LgS that the Str8 DH can only ID through the Force rule now.

You read that wrong as well.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
As far as the Primaris psyker, you're telling me if he has FtHoC order which grants FC IIRC he would not ID T2 models?
Looks as if that statement is assuredly false.

No as he is enfeebled 2 times so his S is 1+1 for FC, he would not ID any T2 models unless he uses the rules on P. 37

Or if a scarab swarm was Enfeebled, and he is as above he would not ID the swarms? W/O "force"

No he would not, as the psyker would be S2 if he had FC and the scarabs were T2 when enfeebled So there is no way for the psyker at Str 2 to ID a T2 W/O the "force" Special rule.

**nosferatu1001**

It is, however, the method all weapons use, and Force Weapons are also weapons.

So the context is very clear, you are just entirely making up new context to suit your argument, and turning a very, very clear and straight forward rule, with no ambiguity thanks to 6th editions VERY clear rules on wounds

**AlmightyWalrus**

DeathReaper wrote:

No he would not, as the psyker would be S2 if he had FC and the scarabs were T2 when enfeebled So there is no way for the psyker at Str 2 to ID a T2 W/O the "force" Special rule.

Rad grenades.

**DeathReaper**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:

No he would not, as the psyker would be S2 if he had FC and the scarabs were T2 when enfeebled So there is no way for the psyker at Str 2 to ID a T2 W/O the "force" Special rule.

Rad grenades.

Primaris Psykers can not get Rad Grenades.

**Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert**

This is getting silly, posters such as Death Reaper and Easysauce are trying to use circular logic to justify why kharn should be affect by ID from a S 8 NDH. It is clear that whether the weapon has been "activated" or not it is always a Force Weapon, that cannot be changed. If you do not activate it it does not revert to only being a thunderhammer, it is still a NDH. Therefore, Kharn is not affected by ID period not matter the strength. If you don't like it too bad complain the the Codex author. I don't like it either but I'm not gonna cheese my way to getting what I want, I just deal with it.

**Che-Vito**

< Taken by the void dragon >

**nosferatu1001**

Indeed. The claim that changing "power" for "force" means the context has to change ton *only* consider ID from the Force rule is bonkers - it has no basis in contextual reality

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

DeathReaper wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:

No he would not, as the psyker would be S2 if he had FC and the scarabs were T2 when enfeebled So there is no way for the psyker at Str 2 to ID a T2 W/O the "force" Special rule.

Rad grenades.
Primaris Psykers can not get Rad Grenades.

Allies are quite fantabulous. While he might not have them, he may be in a combat that they're being used.

As to your other post back. I don't think I read it wrong, it looks as if it's written wrong.

I did misread the double enfeeble part though.

My question with the Primaris, he was not enfeebled.

**AlmightyWalrus**

DeathReaper wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:

No he would not, as the psyker would be S2 if he had FC and the scarabs were T2 when enfeebled So there is no way for the psyker at Str 2 to ID a T2 W/O the "force" Special rule.

Rad grenades.
Primaris Psykers can not get Rad Grenades.

The Grand Master charging into the same combat as him can.

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Deathreaper wrote:The only way for any force weapon to inflict ID is to use the rules on P. 37

Absolutely false.
You read what I typed incorrectly. Any force weapon means all of them.

Still absolutely false. Any Force weapon has 2 ways to cause ID.

rigeld2 wrote:
Deathreaper wrote:A Primaris Psyker with 2 enfeebles cast on his unit will never ID on Str Vs toughness. but he still can through the Force rules on P. 37

And according to you, a doubly enfeebled Carnifex would not suffer ID to a non activated Nemesis Demon Hammer. After all, Force weapons don't ID through double toughness.

No I never said that either. There are some cases where a force weapon will have S>=2T. But That is not the method for ID that all force weapons use, as not all force weapons are S>=2T

**easysauce**

Che-Vito wrote:
easysauce wrote:

side note, it would say "kharn is immune to ID caused by force weapons, and by attacks from grey knights at 2x his toughness value" if thats what it meant, a str 8 attack, regardless of what weapon caused it, does not cease to be a str 8 attack just because everyone's "favorite" special marines are the ones inflicitng it

You haven't played GW games for too long, have you?
We're lucky if a change from one edition to another can clear up something like vehicles having unusable Invulnerable saves by RAW.

I'll hypothesize about this rule for you: imagine
"Kharn is immune to Instant Death caused by Power Weapons."
This would be anything that causes Instant Death and is a Power Weapon.

Similarly:
"Kharn is immune to Instant Death caused by Force Weapons."
This would be anything that causes Instant Death and is a Force Weapon.

The first rule wouldn't get any argument, while the second one does. Seems a bit silly, considering that both rules are referencing weapons, with no mention of activating the Force Weapon.

RAW is pretty clear, if you're using a Force Weapon, he cannot be a victim of ID
The wording of the rule is broad, and that could be intentional or not from the designers. For now, we've got RAW to work with.

not even close... power weapons do not cause ID, thats like saying kahrn is immuned to difficult terrain while in open terrain... it just doesnt make sense...

no weapon has ID in its rules,

ID is is simply caused in two ways, either 2x str or from the force rule,
instant death from force weapons is one separate, independent entity.
instant death from an ATTACK (not weapon, RAW specifically say 2x str from an attack, not a weapon) is completely separate.

**jeffersonian000**

A Str4 Nemesis Force Weapon so can ID a T2 or less model without being activated, because it's Str4 vs T2 or less (see pg 16 of the BRB).

SJ

**grendel083**

easysauce wrote:
not even close... power weapons do not cause ID

Yes they can.

**easysauce**

in addition, CCW do not have a STR characteristic, they simply affect the str of the models attack STR, ie +1 2x, ect, so it is never the CCW's str characteristic causing the 2x T ID, it is the models attack

the ID from 2x str comes from the models attack, no the weapons profile, no weapon actually has the ID rule, and kahrns rule says he is immune to force weapons, not the 2x t attack str caused by modifiers to the models attack str

Automatically Appended Next Post:

grendel083 wrote:
easysauce wrote:
not even close... power weapons do not cause ID

Yes they can.

no they dont, its not under the special rules for power weapons, the model may have 2x the targets T str value, but the power weapon does not even have a str value, it has a modifier on the characters str

**Fragile**

easysauce wrote:
I also apologize to any one who was offended by my cheese head remark... i think the way some people are looking at the rule is cheesy, not your heads,

easy, I think you should read the Tenets of the forum. This is for arguing RAW. Whether we think its right, wrong or just plain dumb, it is RAW. If you want How I Would Play It, then just ask or state you are saying that. In this case RAW makes Kharn immune to Double Str ID from a Force Weapon as well as the activation.

HIWPI would be he is only immune to the Force activation.

**grendel083**

easysauce wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
easysauce wrote:
not even close... power weapons do not cause ID

Yes they can.

no they dont, its not under the special rules for power weapons, the model may have 2x the targets T str value, but the power weapon does not even have a str value, it has a modifier on the characters str

I said they can, not they have the rule.
You make attacks with a power weapon, using the models Str characteristic.
Therefore an attack with a power weapon can cause instant death.

**Tri**

grendel083 wrote:
easysauce wrote:
grendel083 wrote:
easysauce wrote:
not even close... power weapons do not cause ID

Yes they can.

no they dont, its not under the special rules for power weapons, the model may have 2x the targets T str value, but the power weapon does not even have a str value, it has a modifier on the characters str

I said they can, not they have the rule.
You make attacks with a power weapon, using the models Str characteristic.
Therefore an attack with a power weapon can cause instant death.

Your think of 5th where it was the user that stuck with bonuses from his weapon ... 6th the weapon strikes with its strength linked to the user (in most cases) .... (side note i can't wait for a weapon with Strength: Target ... )

**Frecklesonfire**

No one read my post? a thunder hammer is still a thunder hammer lol? nothing confusing here folks

**OIIIIIIO**

Frecklesonfire wrote:
No one read my post? a thunder hammer is still a thunder hammer lol? nothing confusing here folks

Except that in this case if it is weilded by a unit from C:GK it would be a Nemesis Daemon Hammer ... and special rules that are applicable via pg. 54 in said codex.

**lucasbuffalo**

Frecklesonfire wrote:
No one read my post? a thunder hammer is still a thunder hammer lol? nothing confusing here folks

And a force weapon is still a force weapon, thanks.

**Che-Vito**

< Taken by the void dragon >

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

easysauce wrote:

ID is is simply caused in two ways, either 2x str or from the force rule,
instant death from force weapons is one separate, independent entity.
instant death from an ATTACK (not weapon, RAW specifically say 2x str from an attack, not a weapon) is completely separate.

Actually there are far more than 2 ways to cause ID.

In 6th weapons inflict wounds so if the Force weapon wounds Kharn he cannot be ID'd by it. Simple.

**Kangodo**

easysauce wrote:
instant death from an ATTACK (not weapon, RAW specifically say 2x str from an attack, not a weapon) is completely separate.

So you are not hitting with your weapon?
In that case he will never have the STR x2 bonus, which solves the entire problem.

I get what you are coming at, but the attacks are still coming from that weapon.
Otherwise I could argue that in the other case the ID doesn't come from the Force Weapon, but from the Force USR.

**ZebioLizard2**

ID is is simply caused in two ways, either 2x str or from the force rule,
instant death from force weapons is one separate, independent entity.
instant death from an ATTACK (not weapon, RAW specifically say 2x str from an attack, not a weapon) is completely separate.

Raw:

Page 50: If the weapon confers a strength bonus, the strength of the weapon's attack's is equal to that of the user after such modifiers have been applied.

Book itself says the attack comes from the weapon, RAW disagrees with you.