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Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






 Crimson wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:

The point is that you shouldn't be asking for it in the first place.

Look, whether you like it or not, the rulebook clearly says that most players are fine with lists being few points over. So it is not at all unreasonable, nor rude, for a player to ask whether their opponent might be one of those "most players". Getting upset if the opponent is not fine with it is obviously rude, as is cheating by using an over-the-limit list without the opponent's permission.

Look, whether you like it or not, the rulebook clearly states that the point limit is the MAXIMUM you may spend. So it is not unreasonable or rude for a player to ask that thir opponent abide by the rules. Getting upset if your opponent expects you to bring a legal list that is within the points limit you BOTH agreed to beforehand, is obviously rude.
An editorial an editor put into the book as an aside that has nothing to do with the actual rule in order to fill page space is nothing to hang your hat on when trying to justify spending over the limits willy nilly because you can get away with it. A side comment that is also not only untrue but also unverifyable. Had he personally gone to every single 40k player on the entire earth and poll them? No, that was just someone filling page space to help people develop their own house rules if the issue comes up. The fact remains, house rules are house rules and only apply "in-house". when you go outand play strangers, play in tourneys or set up games with those not in your private "house group" the house rules simply do not apply and you go by the actual rules.

clively wrote:
"EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)

Seems a few of you have not read this... http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Crimson wrote:
Look, whether you like it or not, the rulebook clearly says that most players are fine with lists being few points over.

Indeed it does. Where the writer got that idea from is anyone's guess, though.

 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






 insaniak wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Look, whether you like it or not, the rulebook clearly says that most players are fine with lists being few points over.

Indeed it does. Where the writer got that idea from is anyone's guess, though.

I am SURE the editor did not personally poll every single 40k player across the entire earth and keep verifiable recordswhich he would have had to do for it to be accurate. I think he just put that in to fill page space. (is that comment even in the mini version that came with the game? if not, that would verify that it was just a page filler).
I also think it was put in there to encourage people to develop house rules,as we have seen a fair few of here. Some of them very good ones, that I may steal to introduce to my own group. in order to keep peace among close knit friends, but outside of those groups, peoplestill need to e polite and respectful and follow the actual rules in the book.

clively wrote:
"EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)

Seems a few of you have not read this... http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 EVIL INC wrote:

Look, whether you like it or not, the rulebook clearly states that the point limit is the MAXIMUM you may spend.

That much is obvious. (And I have no problem with that rule.)
So it is not unreasonable or rude for a player to ask that thir opponent abide by the rules.

Agreed.

Getting upset if your opponent expects you to bring a legal list that is within the points limit you BOTH agreed to beforehand, is obviously rude.

Again, agreed, I said that.

An editorial an editor put into the book as an aside that has nothing to do with the actual rule in order to fill page space is nothing to hang your hat on when trying to justify spending over the limits willy nilly because you can get away with it. A side comment that is also not only untrue but also unverifyable. Had he personally gone to every single 40k player on the entire earth and poll them? No, that was just someone filling page space to help people develop their own house rules if the issue comes up. The fact remains, house rules are house rules and only apply "in-house". when you go outand play strangers, play in tourneys or set up games with those not in your private "house group" the house rules simply do not apply and you go by the actual rules.

Whether it is true or not doesn't matter. And I was not using it to justify overspending, I was using it to argue that it is not rude to player to ask whether or not their opponent minds few extra points.

   
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Under the couch

 Crimson wrote:
Whether it is true or not doesn't matter. .

Well, it kind of does...

Because if you show up with an over-point list on the understanding that most players won't have a problem with it, and this in fact turns out to not be true, you're potentially bound for disappointment land.

 
   
Made in ca
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





Mississauga

Whether it is true or not doesn't matter. And I was not using it to justify overspending, I was using it to argue that it is not rude to player to ask whether or not their opponent minds few extra points.


This is the part I fundamentally disagree with. Considering my post several pages back, and following that logic, we can infer that we are not discussing a game with friends, nor are we talking about tournament play.

This leaves 2 options:
1) Quickly thrown together game
2) Preplanned game at the store with someone you only kind of know

In a quickly thrown together game, there might be reasons to justify asking to go over the limit. You may not have access to your entire collection and due to points costs would have to go slightly over as opposed to significantly below. That would be a reasonable reason for asking to go over.

However in scenario 2, it is rude to ask to go over. Many people will agree to things for reasons that you may not be aware of. For example, if you were a younger player and I was an older player, I might hesitate to say no to your overage because I would not want to be seen as someone older picking on someone younger. If you were the older player asking a younger player if it was ok to go over they might acquiesce simply based off the perceived level of authority due to age. Players might simply agree to the overage because they don't want to develop a reputation of being difficult. If you are more known at that store and I am not, I would hesitate to say no as I would not want to develop that reputation.

All of these reasons may be true or they may not. Nonetheless I (or another player) would then be uncomfortable in a game because you wanted to be over by 1-2 points. Considering that you had time in advance to build a list that conformed to our limit, AND considering the number of people in this thread alone that have told you they would consider it rude, there is literally NO reason for you to do such a thing. You have time to make a proper list. Consider the fact that you are posting in this thread, that means you can post a thread in the sub forum for list building and have people give you a hand on building lists within points limits and you don't even have to spend much time doing it yourself.

There is no reason ever to go to a prearranged game with someone you are not familiar with and ask for an overage. It is rude, and this is the fundamental part of the argument against going over the limit.

2,500 - Discipline. Duty. Unyielding Will.
2,000 - He alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood.
2,500 - Order. Unity. Obedience.

 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 insaniak wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Whether it is true or not doesn't matter. .

Well, it kind of does...

Because if you show up with an over-point list on the understanding that most players won't have a problem with it, and this in fact turns out to not be true, you're potentially bound for disappointment land.

Well yes, but it didn't matter for the point I was trying to make, which was this: if the rulebook tells the player that there are many people who do not mind lists being few points over, then it is not unreasonable behaviour for that player to ask their opponent whether they mind or not.

   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 insaniak wrote:
[The only times I have ever had an opponent ask to go over points, it was because they were creating a list on the fly and it was quicker to just go with it than to go back and tweak it.


This is why my friends go with the 1500+1% rule when playing impromptu games; it's faster. If we have a game planned in advance, though, we stick to the limit.

Also we've started archiving our lists so I can usually just pull a good one out of my email at this point.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
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If you accept overcosted lists there are some that will always put an over costed army on the table.

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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

It's situational, for me at least. If the game is known in advance, I will make sure I don't go over (as I have time to fine tune my list), and I will expect my opponent not to be over. However, most of my games are pick-up games. I not only know what army I'll be playing, but I also don't know the point limit that any given player can (or wants to) play. In those cases, if my opponent is a few points over, I don't care. If I am, I'll ask my opponent if he minds.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

The entire reason for formal published rules is so that perfect strangers of any type can play a pickup game of 40k. Much the same concept as board games.

Doing anything contrary to the raw rules of the game put all that in jeopardy since as shown in this forum, we all have different opinions of what is reasonable for change.

I like meeting new people, trying to stick to the rules in all things (unless during the game you both dislike some game slowing rule and work it out) you tend to have that person want to play you again.

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in us
Abhorrent Grotesque Aberration





 Crimson wrote:

Whether it is true or not doesn't matter. And I was not using it to justify overspending, I was using it to argue that it is not rude to player to ask whether or not their opponent minds few extra points.


@Talizvar: the "formal published rules" on this point are a disaster. RAW, pg 108, starts off saying that "it is this points limit that determines the maximum points you can spend" then goes on to say "most players are happy to let their opponent go a few points over the agreed total"; I'd say we have a cluster f* (my money says that Jervis struck again).

What is "a few"? The best guide I've found is:


*from xkcd: http://xkcd.com/1070/

So, yes, it should be reasonable for a player to ask whether a few points over is okay prior to getting started. Just as it's entirely reasonable for a player to say that no, it's not. Getting to the original question about 35 points over on a 1500 list, I'd say 35 points doesn't qualify as "a few" under any known definition and therefore, no, that's not fine. As a side exercise, 1 doesn't seem to qualify as "a few" so it appears that being 1 point over is RAW expressly prohibited whereas 2 points can be done with opponent permission.



------------------
"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

clively wrote:
@Talizvar: the "formal published rules" on this point are a disaster. RAW, pg 108, starts off saying that "it is this points limit that determines the maximum points you can spend" then goes on to say "most players are happy to let their opponent go a few points over the agreed total"; I'd say we have a cluster f* (my money says that Jervis struck again).

We don't need to analyse what 'few' means to establish the actual rules. Those are contained in that first statement. The second is simply a commentary that 'most' players won't mind if you want to break the rules.

 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

I keep forgetting competitive play is not possible in 40k.
So even trying to stay within the rules is pointless and only irritates others.

I just feel it is a bad habit to get in with X-wing, Battletech, Starfleet Commander any collectable card game... what do I care of a couple points or a couple extra cards in the deck?

I have to lay the beatdown on suppliers thinking that specification limits are "suggestions" and that measurements at exactly the upper limit of specification is "OK" when it is not possible to maintain a process at exactly the upper limit without going over (process variation).

Limits are made so that a meeting does not have to be held for every time someone thinks rules do not apply to them but does for everyone else.

It is a means of managing expectation and performance which is fundamental to playing a game.

I had no idea how much I cared about something this silly and never considered myself TFG material but remove something from your list to conform to the limit you primitive screw heads!!!!

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






 megatrons2nd wrote:

Why do you feel that I should have to play at an 8 point handicap? Why should you get an extra Lascannon if I can't have that one extra body? Why should you have access to weapons that ignore my armor in every squad, when I have to cut the ones that ignore your armor just to make points? Why should you get to have a that extra squad that I can't take because of 1 point.

I guess that I am more interested (and feel the game is more fair) in a closer point difference for balancing games. 8 points under is a fair bit different than 1 point over.

Because it's about building to a limit. Are you saying that it's impossible for you to get to the points limit? How close you get to the limit while getting you want is down to you.
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Well, we can all agree that 35 points over is rather ludicrous and ought to be whittled down significantly, but opinions about "Not a single point over" and the varied "If it's only x points over, it's ok to at least check with your opponent" are really just boiling down to insults now.
We agree on the original YMDC, but now we are acting utterly uncivilized in defense of our arguments. We're done here, so if a mod reads this, please lock this thread for everyone's sake.

Revel in the glory of the site's greatest thread or be edetid and baned!
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Made in nl
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The Netherlands

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Well, we can all agree that 35 points over is rather ludicrous and ought to be whittled down significantly, but opinions about "Not a single point over" and the varied "If it's only x points over, it's ok to at least check with your opponent" are really just boiling down to insults now.
We agree on the original YMDC, but now we are acting utterly uncivilized in defense of our arguments. We're done here, so if a mod reads this, please lock this thread for everyone's sake.


The discussion did get somewhat heated at times, but I don't think it got truly uncivilized or insulting at any time.
And although the two sides are not going to convince one another, if we start locking threads because people disagree with each other we might as well lock the internet.
Give it time and the thread will die a quiet death on its own.
   
Made in gb
Hungry Little Ripper




leicester

at the gaming group i run. we have a 2pt over limit. if 3 or more you remove a model or amend your list

:Tyranids rule:  
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Yes, eventually the thread will indeed die on it's own.

Besides, only the admins and mods have the choice or power to close a thread. If they decide to do so, it will be because they see fit to do it, not because a random person decrees it to be done.Yes, there have been insults thrown about and members have been reported, but a few of us have remained calm and civil .Dont judge the rest of us by those few who display poor behavior.

The main reason the thread will die though is because it is not a question with a debatable answer. The book gives the answer to us in black and white spelled out so specifically that it does not even need a FAQ. Anything else is breaking the rules.

clively wrote:
"EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)

Seems a few of you have not read this... http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp 
   
 
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